Other than decathletes, which track event....


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Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby dbirds » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:43 pm

has produced the best athletes??

I'm not looking for which event is the hardest but which event has produced or which event has the best athletes to participate in it?

Here are some good candidates with some examples:
(Most of the examples that I are used are athletes that did track first or at least very seriously)

110M HURDLES
(Willie Gault played football & bobsled & won 2 Superstars; Roger Kingdom played college football and was great all-around; Allen Johnson and Colin Jackson both were great all-arounders; Guy Drut finished 2nd in Superstars and scored 7500 in deca; Stephane Caristan did 7500 in deca and ran 400m hurdles; Renaldo Nehemiah was NFL WR and won Superstars 3 times)

POLE VAULT
(Sergey Bubka was great all-around athlete; Bob Seagren won 1st Superstars; Jean Galfione scored 7200 in decathon; Kjell Isaksson won 2 Euro Superstars; Lawrence Johnson scored 7500 in deca; Gennady Bliznetsov and TIm Bright both scored 8300 in deca; Wladyslaw Kozakiewicz did 7400 in deca; Aleksandr Averbukh ddi 8000 deca; Brian Hooper won British Superstars twice; Charles Hoff did 7629 deca in 30s)

400M HURDLES
(Edwin Moses was great athlete and did bobsled; Harald Schmid ran strong 400 & 800; Andre Phillips flirted with the decathlon; David Hemery won 2 British Superstars and scored 6700 in deca; Glenn Davis was NFL player and excellent all-around athlete; Dan Steele did 8100 deca and bobsled; John Akii-Bua scored 6900 in deca; Bennie Brazell is playing pro rugby after brief NFL career; Kerron Clement is athletic beast)

LONG JUMP
(Carl & Owens were great sprinters; Igor Ter-Ovanesyan and Ralph Boston both flirted with decathlon; Mike Powell was a great dunker and won 92 Superstars; Eric Metcalf, Bo Roberson & James Lofton were both NFL stars; CB Fry one of all-time cricket legends)

JAVELIN
(Janis Lusis did deca in 7400, Bob Roggy was excellent athlete; Jan Zelezny and Uwe Hohn both had great speed & strength; Dainis Kūla did deca; Peter Blank scored 7600 in deca; Peter Esenwein did 7000 deca)

100M/200M SPRINTS
(Lewis & Owens were excellent leapers; Bolt is incredible; Carr, Bates, Jett, Frank Budd Ron Brown (to name a few) all played pro football; Bob Hayes was HOF WR; David Sime was excellent athlete)

HIGH JUMP
(Gerd Wessing scored 8000 in deca; Brumel was excellent all-around athlete; Sotomayor played basketball and had big squat lifts; John Thomas & Jacek Wszola were both great athletes)

SHOT PUT
(Brian Oldfield (5750 deca) & Werner Gunthor possessed great lifting and jumping ability; Udo Beyer and Bruce Wilhelm were both excellent athletes; Michael Carter was All-Pro DL; Edy Hubacher did deca and bobsled; Wladislaw Komar did 6600 deca; Randy Matson played college basketball; Geoff Capes did 5565 deca and was great at highland games; Sam Francis played pro football)

TRIPLE JUMP
(Mike Conley was basketball player and great dunker; Jonathan Edwards was excellent all-around athlete;Tommy Haynes was solid athlete)

DISCUS THROW
(Bishop Dologiewicz was 2nd in 1980 WSM; Stefan Fernholm was great sprinter and leaper for big man; Lars Riedel did 6087 deca; Ubartas and Dumchev were exellent all-around athletes; Plucknett and McColdrick became Highland Games stars; Jon Cole was excellent weightlifer)

400 METERS
(Du'aine Ladejo scored 7600 in deca and won UK Superstars; Old school runner Lon Myers was excellent all-arounder; Quincy Watts was excellent athlete; Ollie Matson played in NFL; Tommie Smith played NFL and was tremendous athlete)

800 METERS
(Peter Snell finished 4th in Superstars and was excellent all sport athlete; Nixon Kiprotich and Rudolph Harbig excelled in multiple events)

HAMMER THROW
(Christian Okoye was All Pro RB; Rodehaus and Zsivotsky were strong athletes; O'Callaghan was all-arounder in 50s; Syedikh was excellent athlete)


I combined 100 & 200 because there were so many crossovers
Anyone want to add some more examples or rank them??
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby Marlow » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:52 pm

dbirds wrote:POLE VAULT

Bingo.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby dbirds » Tue Mar 16, 2010 2:05 pm

I was thinking pole vault too but after looking at the athletes, I'm now leaning towards 110m hurdles!
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby jeremyp » Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:30 pm

Most decathletes are good hurdlers. It takes speed and coordination. You don't often see a high hurdler who is slim, or short (sub 5'10"). I think you could take many good high hurdlers and turn them in to good decathletes. I can't think of any other event, except the long jump, where you could say that.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby jhc68 » Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:33 pm

Vaulters and hurdlers are the most dynamic and versatile athletes.
IMHO Bubka could have been a WR decathlete if he'd chosen that specialty.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby Jake » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:48 am

'CB Fry one of all-time cricket legends'.

A fine player but 'legend' is too strong a description: his batting average at Test level was a moderate 32.

Also a good footballer and a decent rugby player.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby KDFINE » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:55 am

Snell finished 4th in the Superstars. As I recall, through no fault of his own, Snell was taken out of the bike race by a crash. My thought at the time was that he would have won the bike and probably the whole thing.
Snell was a great tennis player. On the flip side, I recall reading that tennis' Roy Emerson was about a 22 foot long jumper around the age of 15.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby slowcat » Wed Mar 17, 2010 7:59 am

Pole vaulters.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby Avante » Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:17 am

Sprinters!

NFL

running backs

Herschel Walker
Bo Jackson
Curtis Dickey
Michael Bennett
Jamaal Charles
Javid Best
Eugene White
Ollie Matson
Andrew Hopkins
Justin Vargas
Reggie Bush
0.J.Simpson
Cyril Pinder
Buddy Young
Joe Delaney
Travis Williams
Darrin Nelson
Nap Kaufman
Warrick Dunn

wide receivers

Bob Boyd
James Jett
Willie Gault
Bob Hayes
Homer Jones
Danny Pebbles
Jerome Mathis
Charles Frazier
Rocky Thompson
Ken Burrough
John Roderick
Willie McGee
Travis Hannah
Mark Duper
Isacc Curtis
Mel Gray
Jacoby Ford
Cliff Branch
Johnny Jones
J.D.Hill
Phil Epps
Sam Graddy
Ron Brown
Alvis Whitted
Wesley Walker
Gerald Tinker
Larry Burton
Clyde Glosson
Michael Bates
Curtis Conway
Rod Barksdale
Cecil Turner
Sammie Parker
Pat Johnson
Ken Willis
Herkie Walls
Tony Jones
Tim Dwight
Michael Haynes
Anthony Miller
Eddie Kennison
Alexander Wright
Harold Jackson

defensive backs

Lenny Lyles
James Trapp
Lawrence Johnson
Darrel Green
Russsell Carter
Henry Carr
Clarence Childs
Terry McDaneil
Harlan Davis
Deion Sanders
Stanford Routt
Rod Jones
Terrence Newman
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby dbirds » Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:16 am

Most of the guys you listed were football players first that sprinted too.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby Avante » Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:45 am

dbirds wrote:Most of the guys you listed were football players first that sprinted too.


The question was which track event has produced the best athletes. I'm betting all those guys were sprinting along with playing football right out of the gate. Notice I didn't mention guys like Jimmy Hines, Frank Budd, Ray Norton, John Carlos or Tommie Smith? There it was pretty much.."you're fast, wanna try football?"
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby Per Andersen » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:52 pm

POLE VAULT : Add Bob Richards who was a top Decathlete. Also Bob Gutowski who was a good LJer.
Regarding Charles Hoff. I doubt the 7629. The best I can find is an exhibition result from 1930 where he scored 6553. An incredible multi talented athlete but but not sharp in SP & DT.
In 1926 he defeated the reigning Olympic Decathlon champ Harold Osborn in an indoor Heptathlon?

HIGH JUMP: Harold Osborn. Also won the Decathlon in 1924. Kalevi Kotkas of Finland. Long time Euro record holder, 4th in the 1936 Olympic HJ and 7th in the 1932 Discus

I imagine Ukhov could do a decent Deca. He was a Discus thrower before he focused on the HJ.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby dbirds » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:33 am

Based on the info above, I'm going:

1. 110m hurdlers
2. Pole vaulters
3. 400m hurdlers
4. 100m/200m sprinters
5. Javelin throwers
6. Long jumpers
7. High jumpers
8. Shot putters
9. Triple jumpers
10. 400m runners

hm: 800/1500, discus, hammer
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby Pentathlete 2 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:44 pm

dbirds, great post.

Where did you get info on Lars Riedel's decathlon?

I remember seeing his personal webpage around year 2000 where he listed his decathlon broken down by events. His page is since long gone and I haven't been able to find same info since.

Thanks!
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby dbirds » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:38 pm

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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby eiluke » Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:42 am

Old thread, I know, but to me as a reatively new poster it's kind of new;)

Some additional information:

Athletes from shot/ put throwing events:
Shot putter Werner Günthör could jump too: 7,30 LJ, 2,00 HJ
Discus thrower Morris Mac Wilkins put up best overall throwing event combination, which says he has a good coordination: SP 21,06, DT 70,98; Jav 78,44 (old).

Run-Jum athletes:
Anthuan Maybank (6'2", 185) 400m 44,15 (400m runners are not just fast, they need some some kind of speed endurance as well). Further: LJ 8,25 (8,40 wind aided)
Mike Conley , TJ 17,89 (18,17 wind aided),LJ 8,46 (8,63 wind aided), 200m 20,21 (20,12 wind aided)
Melvin Lister, 200m 20,51, 400m 45,67, LJ 8,49, TJ: 17,78
Christian Taylor 400m 45,34, LJ 8,19, TJ 17,96

I agree in what other posters mentiond in terms of potential decathlon talent: high hurdler have speed, size and coordination. The highest relation between the decathlon output and the level of a single event however offers the long jump:
If you rate the combined PBs of the all time best 100 decathletes with a one single event of the decathlon you'll find out: those who rank high in their combinded PB on average are highest ranked in the LJ. (least correlation to a good decathlon result are the 1500m - no surprise)
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby dj » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:56 am

Per Andersen wrote:Regarding Charles Hoff. I doubt the 7629. The best I can find is an exhibition result from 1930 where he scored 6553.


I suspect these marks are from the same exhibition: Without checking year lists, and only my own incomplete notes here at work, I suspect the 7629 is scored on the 1920 tables, with the 6962 being the score on the 1934 tables and the 6553 to score based on the 1950 tables.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby user4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:03 pm

eiluke wrote:If you rate the combined PBs of the all time best 100 decathletes with a one single event of the decathlon you'll find out: those who rank high in their combinded PB on average are highest ranked in the LJ. (least correlation to a good decathlon result are the 1500m - no surprise)


Great post, That is surprising. I would have thought that the PV had the best correlation with Deca performance. That it is actually the LJ is very informative.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby eiluke » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:02 pm

Hi user4, the pole vault (and the high hurdles) are the hardest events to learn for average athletes, because they need athletic ability and a lot of coordination.
Those 100 top athletes I compared are those decathletes who have put up the best combined points when cumulating their PBs (lists starts with Dan O'Brian way above 9500 and ends with Robert Muzzio at 8728 pts). They all have already very good athletic skills and very good body coordination. And what here really sepatates the great athletes from the very good athletes is very frequently the long jump. If you look at the top 10 of the list
Daniel O’Brien
Ashton Eaton
Michael Smith
Bryan Clay
Roman Sebrle
Jürgen Hingsen
Francis Thompson
Thomas Pappas
Tomas Dvorak
Erki Nool
Smith has a PB of "just" 7.76 the rest has jumped 7.96 or more.
Among other needed skills for long jump you especially need speed (whis is basic for many other events) and the take off is more or less comparible to what you need for high hurdles, high jump, pole vault.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby user4 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:17 am

eiluke wrote:Those 100 top athletes I compared are those decathletes who have put up the best combined points when accumulating their PBs (lists starts with Dan O'Brian way above 9500 and ends with Robert Muzzio at 8728 pts). They all have already very good athletic skills and very good body coordination. And what here really separates the great athletes from the very good athletes is very frequently the long jump. If you look at the top 10 of the list


eiluke, Thanks for this, I agree with your analysis, but I suspect that it may be more accurate to look at their actual two day Deca scores and compare that to their single event PBs (however they got it) to determine the best regressor. After all we are trying to determine a regressor for Deca scores. It may be that the LJ is the best predictor.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby eiluke » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:19 am

I inbetween tried a few other approaches which are difficult to explain.
My first attempt (very simple, but I still can follow this logic) had been:

1st step: I placed every single of the alltime top 100 decathletes by cummulated PBs (1. Dan O'Brien 9552, 2. Ashton Eaton 9485, 3. Michael Smith 9362, ...., 100. Robert Muzzio )
(in my list the IAAF decathlon rules for 100m, LJ and 110 hurdles apply: not more than +4.0 in single events; or if one event is above +4.0 the summe of all 3 events has to be within +6.0)

2nd step: I rated the athletes in every single event (100m 1 Ashton Eaton 10.19, Chris Huffins 10.22, ..., 100 Christian Schenk 11.10). Next list for Longjump and so on.
Now I had for every single decathlete his ranking in every single event.

3rd step I build two parts in the cumulated PB list.
The better decathletes = List 1 (1. Dan O'Brien 9552, 2. Ashton Eaton 9485, ... 50. Yuri Kuzenko 8858)
The lesser decathletes = List 2 (51. Paul Terek 8856, ... 100. Robert Muzzio 8728)

4rd step: now I can calculate the average position of the top decathletes for every event and can compare the two lists.
The better the average place List 1 (those 50 decathletes with the best cumulated PB 1-50) do have in an event in comparison to List 2 (the control group, decathletes whoms cumulated PB ranks them just 51-100), the more specific this event is for a "very good" decathlete.

LJ is the most specific, 1500m is the least specific.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby user4 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:02 pm

I dont doubt your method as it seems to capture the basic effect. Also worth considering is a straight forward correlation coefficient of each event (used as an independent variable/regressor) to predict the total Deca score (less the event under consideration as a regressor) would be straight forward to do.

If you PM me the web site where the data is listed I will do it and PM you back the results.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby Jackaloupe » Fri Aug 30, 2013 10:33 am

Late to the party, here, but there's a glaring absence from the initial list, which surprisingly 'noone' picked up on: Milt Campbell, 1956 Oly Champ in Decathlon, did go on to a WR 13.4 in 120 H (Compton, 1957). He played Fullback at Indiana; AND was an HS All-American Swimmer, to boot! I think it was an Indoor 50, that I sure would've loved to see; intimidating sight lining up.

Luther Hayes, all-Pro Wide Receiver (San Diego?), was NCAA Triple Jump Champ at USC (1961?); solid LJ'er, too.

Rafer Johnson need not be eliminated from consideration either, as he also made the '60 Oly team in LJ. He also played Basketball at UCLA. As Rafer was a top hurdler, too, that only reinforces the original quest for the event producing the "best athlete".

BTW, Note that the better "athletes", incl. Ashton Eaton and certainly Alan Johnson, don't easily succumb to a whacked hurdle or two--or ten in AJ's case.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby KDFINE » Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:09 pm

Rafer made the 1956 team in the LJ behind Bell and Bennett. (1960 was Boston, Roberson and Watson).
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby Jackaloupe » Fri Aug 30, 2013 5:52 pm

Thanx for that correction, KD. Don't think he jumped in Melbourne. Was he already injured? In any case, MIlt Campbell was ready to roar, incl. his usual powerful Hurdles even on a loose track, ~14 if not "flat".

Rafer's auto accident was later, leading to concentration, for the better, on the Weights, w/ Discus improving markedly and Javelin even more: a nice penultimate "clincher", esp. when you so hate the 1500m.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby Dave » Sat Aug 31, 2013 4:59 pm

dbirds wrote:Most of the guys you listed were football players first that sprinted too.


If I have the story right, I believe Herschel Walker was state champion in HS 100 and SP. Not sure I have ever heard of that combination before. That tells me he really was an amazing athlete.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby gh » Sun Sep 01, 2013 8:06 am

Jackaloupe wrote:Thanx for that correction, KD. Don't think he jumped in Melbourne. Was he already injured? In any case, MIlt Campbell was ready to roar, incl. his usual powerful Hurdles even on a loose track, ~14 if not "flat".

Rafer's auto accident was later, leading to concentration, for the better, on the Weights, w/ Discus improving markedly and Javelin even more: a nice penultimate "clincher", esp. when you so hate the 1500m.


Johnson withdrew from Melbourne because of a bad knee.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby no one » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:03 am

Sam (Bam) Cunningham (of USC v Alabama/Bear Bryant fame) was not the Cal State, CIF southern section or even league champion in the 100y but reportedly ran 9.8 (believe he was the third fastest guy on his HS team). He was the state champion in the (CA) Shot Put @ 61'2" and a best somewhat more than that (if memory serves 63'+). Herschel 100y = 9.9, SP = 53'.

I read somewhere that Walker won the state 100, 200 and SP. . It appears they were about the same size.

Cunningham played on a HS football team where the offensive line averaged (I think) 350 sumthin) One guy weighed 447 pounds - the small guys were high 200 low and ~2mid. The 447 guy - Bob "big Man" Pointer was pretty athletic for his size. Anyway I digress.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby no one » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:31 am

I did find this : written by his coach I believe.

" throw of 64”9” mostly because of his ability and competitiveness, certainly not because anything this wet behind the ears twenty one year old beginning coach had done. In the league meet Sam ran a 9.7 100 yard dash, won the 220, anchored the winning 440 relay and three the shot over 62” at 6”3” 220 pounds!"

"he told me (in private) that the shot always weighed in overweight by three to four ounces, but he kept using it because it felt good in his hand. "

I seem to recall the SP being about right but not @ state meet.- unsure about 9.7, 220 win and anchor on 440... in league champs. If these are accurate then this may exceed Walkers performances. He was an impressive athlete to say the least.
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby dbirds » Sun Sep 08, 2013 6:13 pm

"I inbetween tried a few other approaches which are difficult to explain.
My first attempt (very simple, but I still can follow this logic) had been:

1st step: I placed every single of the alltime top 100 decathletes by cummulated PBs (1. Dan O'Brien 9552, 2. Ashton Eaton 9485, 3. Michael Smith 9362, ...., 100. Robert Muzzio )
(in my list the IAAF decathlon rules for 100m, LJ and 110 hurdles apply: not more than +4.0 in single events; or if one event is above +4.0 the summe of all 3 events has to be within +6.0)

2nd step: I rated the athletes in every single event (100m 1 Ashton Eaton 10.19, Chris Huffins 10.22, ..., 100 Christian Schenk 11.10). Next list for Longjump and so on.
Now I had for every single decathlete his ranking in every single event.

3rd step I build two parts in the cumulated PB list.
The better decathletes = List 1 (1. Dan O'Brien 9552, 2. Ashton Eaton 9485, ... 50. Yuri Kuzenko 8858)
The lesser decathletes = List 2 (51. Paul Terek 8856, ... 100. Robert Muzzio 8728)

4rd step: now I can calculate the average position of the top decathletes for every event and can compare the two lists.
The better the average place List 1 (those 50 decathletes with the best cumulated PB 1-50) do have in an event in comparison to List 2 (the control group, decathletes whoms cumulated PB ranks them just 51-100), the more specific this event is for a "very good" decathlete.

LJ is the most specific, 1500m is the least specific."


What were the average marks of the 100? I'm guessing like a 10.7 100...
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Re: Other than decathletes, which track event....

Postby user4 » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:15 am

no one wrote:I read somewhere that Walker won the state 100, 200 and SP. . It appears they were about the same size..


Walker was a great great athlete as a HSer ... but I can not imagine him having won a state shot put title ?


no one wrote:" throw of 64”9” mostly because of his ability and competitiveness, certainly not because anything this wet behind the ears twenty one year old beginning coach had done. In the league meet Sam ran a 9.7 100 yard dash, won the 220, anchored the winning 440 relay and three the shot over 62” at 6”3” 220 pounds! "

I seem to recall the SP being about right but not @ state meet.- unsure about 9.7, 220 win and anchor on 440... in league champs.



Sam Cunningham was an immense talent, .. reminds us of another California (HS and NCAA) fullback that went on to have some success in the decathlon.
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