Best sprinter to never win an Olympic medal?


Forum devoted to track & field items of an historical nature.

Postby Pego » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:43 am

Marlow wrote:
Avante wrote:
Speedfirst wrote:Didn't know everyone had to agree on the same sprinter and now you come with some other criteria. As individuals we can and do decide who want and of course is will and is subject to debate.

New criteria? What did the message title read?

Now, Bru . . uh . . . Tex . . . I mean, Avante - play nicely!


Welcome back, Brutal/Texas/Avante. Your presence enlivens the place, regardless how you play :wink: .
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Postby Speedfirst » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:44 am

Avante wrote:
Speedfirst wrote:Didn't know everyone had to agree on the same sprinter and now you come with some other criteria. As individuals we can and do decide who want and of course is will and is subject to debate.


New criteria? What did the message title read?


I never stated new criteria, I said other. Your stating you know about Asafa so what. What does that have to do with anything? Why single him out? Those who have chosen Asfa, did so based upon the question, which by the way doesn't have any particular starting or ending time frame.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:12 pm

Pego wrote:Welcome back, Brutal/Texas/Avante. Your presence enlivens the place, regardless how you play :wink: .


Regardless? Really?

Hmmp :?

Anyway..

Brutal,

The implication from the thread QUESTION was "individual" medal -thats why in my first post I asked if you meant individual. If relays were included why has all the discussion (including yours) been about individuals and individual accomplishments?

Nice try.
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Postby STL_Runner » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:45 pm

Speedfirst wrote:I never stated new criteria, I said other.

Yes, you said other, but in this case that wouldn't be any different than new criteria. Another semantics issue with you. Also, the thread starter (Avante) wasn't even the one who brought up the new/other criteria. Reading comprehension is not your friend.

Speedfirst wrote:Your stating you know about Asafa so what. What does that have to do with anything? Why single him out?

Asafa was probably singled out because he has been brought up so many times during this thread. Reading comprehension is not your friend.

Speedfirst wrote:Those who have chosen Asfa, did so based upon the question, which by the way doesn't have any particular starting or ending time frame.

Thank you, master of the obvious. Of course, the person you're responding to never stated otherwise, so I don't know why you even bothered to bring this up. Oh wait, probably because reading comprehension is not your friend.
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Postby Speedfirst » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:06 pm

Since you like following me around girl....new & other aren't nearly the same.

I can have a few jackets and decide that I want the other one, which is not a new, Now on the other hand, I can go purchase a new one. You got it girl, see I know you're on your period and all.

I thought you were using your ignore feature, I know you're enarmored with me, but it's getting old. You really should get off my jock....jock itch.

But I'll continue to entertain you Venganza, how's the pasta coming?
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Postby lovetorun » Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:08 pm

Dave Sime.
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Postby tandfman » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:53 pm

lovetorun wrote:Dave Sime.

Silver medal, 100m, Rome 1960.
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Postby STL_Runner » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:56 pm

Speedfirst wrote:Since you like following me around girl....new & other aren't nearly the same.

I can have a few jackets and decide that I want the other one, which is not a new, Now on the other hand, I can go purchase a new one. You got it girl, see I know you're on your period and all.

Again, you're showing you don't understand the difference between general and specific situations. Reading comprehension is not your friend.

By the way, I'm not a girl, and your attempts to insult me by calling me one are pathetic and immature.
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Postby Avante » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:31 pm

To nobody in particular...

An Olympic medal is huge in track & field. A world record will be broken, you will always have that Olympic medal. This thread was about those sprinters that did make an impact but for some reason or another never won an Olympic medal. Yes it's debatable about just who was the best sprinter to fall into that category. It's not debatable about what this thread is about or it shouldn't be.

Asafa Powell has an Olympic medal. So he is DQed...ha! This isn't about individual anything, It's about who never won an Olympic medal. Ivory Crockett, Houston McTear, Reggie Jones, Rey Robinson, George Anderson would fit while Ronnie Ray Smith, Mel Pender, Johnny Jones and Gerald Tinker wouldn't. Yes a 4x1 medal means you have an Olympic medal. I'm sure those who own one would agree :)
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Postby Speedfirst » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:38 am

STL_Runner wrote:
Speedfirst wrote:Since you like following me around girl....new & other aren't nearly the same.

I can have a few jackets and decide that I want the other one, which is not a new, Now on the other hand, I can go purchase a new one. You got it girl, see I know you're on your period and all.

Again, you're showing you don't understand the difference between general and specific situations. Reading comprehension is not your friend.

By the way, I'm not a girl, and your attempts to insult me by calling me one are pathetic and immature.


Sure you're a girl......once again you added nothing to the subject. Jock itch


What's pathetic and immature is your hard on for me and following me, Venganza. Simply use your ignore feature hypocrite, you did cry about that. Cry baby.
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Postby BisonHurdler » Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:50 am

Speedfirst wrote:
Sure you're a girl......once again you added nothing to the subject. Jock itch


What's pathetic and immature is your hard on for me and following me, Venganza. Simply use your ignore feature hypocrite, you did cry about that. Cry baby.




I have absolutely no horse in this race, but goddamn, Speedfirst, does the second half of your name refer to the grade you're in?


The humor in this all is that the only person being made fun of in your posts is you. You just don't realize it.




Speedfirst wrote:
What's pathetic and immature is
everything you've said on this thread. Grow up. This is just embarrassing to read, knowing there's a chance you may actually be an adult.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaanyway.

Davis is a pretty good pick, and I'm not sure I could come up with a good enough argument for someone else at this point.
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Postby gh » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:48 am

Speedfirst DQed for multiple false starts.
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Postby Pego » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:59 am

TrackDaddy wrote:Regardless? Really?


B/T/A's contributions to the board have nothing to do with his style, unnecessarily confrontational at times, needless to say. His in-depth knowledge of American male sprinting history has few peers. I crossed swords with him repeatedly on many subjects, but his value is undeniable.

Speedfirst wrote:Sure you're a girl......
What's pathetic and immature is your hard on for me...


A hard on in a girl. A rather novel concept to me.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:49 pm

Avante wrote: Yes a 4x1 medal means you have an Olympic medal. I'm sure those who own one would agree :)


Its your thread and God forbid I should try and stop you from making up rules that support your opinion as you go along.

Like you (now) say...relay medals count. :D
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Postby TrackDaddy » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:52 pm

gh wrote:Speedfirst DQed for multiple false starts.


:(

The guy in the lane beside him flinched.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:58 pm

Pego wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:Regardless? Really?


B/T/A's contributions to the board have nothing to do with his style, unnecessarily confrontational at times, needless to say. His in-depth knowledge of American male sprinting history has few peers. I crossed swords with him repeatedly on many subjects, but his value is undeniable.

Speedfirst wrote:Sure you're a girl......
What's pathetic and immature is your hard on for me...


A hard on in a girl. A rather novel concept to me.


As was gleaned from recent global developments...

It can happen.
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Postby STL_Runner » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:03 pm

If relay medals don't count, my vote is for Tyson Gay or Ray Norton.
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Postby Gordon18 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:17 pm

personally i'd say Powell, but Tyson probably gets it looking at his times and other champ performances.
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Postby Gordon18 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:43 pm

gh wrote:Speedfirst DQed for multiple false starts.


You gonna ban STL for provoking??

I don't know about you, but repeatedly saying, "reading comprehension is not your friend"....to a black man, is gonna piss him off. So instead of seeming like a racist, I advise you to ban him aswell.
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Postby STL_Runner » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:51 pm

Gordon18 wrote:
gh wrote:Speedfirst DQed for multiple false starts.


You gonna ban STL for provoking??

I don't know about you, but repeatedly saying, "reading comprehension is not your friend"....to a black man, is gonna piss him off. So instead of seeming like a racist, I advise you to ban him aswell.

Now we're bringing in the race card? I have not the slightest clue whether Speedfirst is black, white, blue or green. I have never met him and have never seen a photo of him. I don't know what area of the country he lives in or how old he is.

I don't have any of my T&F books near me right now and I'd like to know a little more about Hal Davis. Avante knows his stuff and I'm interested to hear how his achievements should be considered over Ray Norton and Tyson Gay.
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Postby Ned Ryerson » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:39 pm

I think that Tyson Gay is clearly the best sprinter to have not won an Olympic medal (I understand if you want to limit the discussion to inactive/retired sprinters).

Ignoring relay medals, he's:
2007 World Champion at 100m and 200m
2009 World Championship silver medalist at 100m
The second fastest 100m runner in history
The third fastest 200m runner in history

And I would argue that his silver in Berlin was worth more than virtually every other gold awarded at the World Championships. To make a comparison, it would be like Lagat running 12:38 to take silver behind Bekele running 12:32.
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Postby Gordon18 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:02 am

Tyson doesn't have an Olympic relay medal does he? or am i missing something.
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Postby STL_Runner » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:44 am

Gordon18 wrote:Tyson doesn't have an Olympic relay medal does he? or am i missing something.

He would if the US could get the stick around the track!
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:30 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:I think that Tyson Gay is clearly the best sprinter to have not won an Olympic medal (I understand if you want to limit the discussion to inactive/retired sprinters).

Ignoring relay medals, he's:
2007 World Champion at 100m and 200m
2009 World Championship silver medalist at 100m
The second fastest 100m runner in history
The third fastest 200m runner in history

And I would argue that his silver in Berlin was worth more than virtually every other gold awarded at the World Championships. To make a comparison, it would be like Lagat running 12:38 to take silver behind Bekele running 12:32.


What?!?

I can't believe you don't think its Hal Davis. :D

And sombody's protecting you, STL.

Imagine that...Must be nice.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:08 am

STL_Runner wrote:
Gordon18 wrote:
gh wrote:Speedfirst DQed for multiple false starts.


You gonna ban STL for provoking??

I don't know about you, but repeatedly saying, "reading comprehension is not your friend"....to a black man, is gonna piss him off. So instead of seeming like a racist, I advise you to ban him aswell.

Now we're bringing in the race card? I have not the slightest clue whether Speedfirst is black, white, blue or green. I have never met him and have never seen a photo of him. I don't know what area of the country he lives in or how old he is.

I don't have any of my T&F books near me right now and I'd like to know a little more about Hal Davis. Avante knows his stuff and I'm interested to hear how his achievements should be considered over Ray Norton and Tyson Gay.


Davis tied both 10.2/9.4 WR's. Between 1940-43 he won 7 National Championships in the 100/200. Three times winning the double. As far as I know in that 4 year span he only lost two races. One to Barney Ewell the other to Payton Jordan. If the Olympics had been held in 40 and 44 there is a very real possibility he wins both doubles and 4x1's.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:38 am

National Championships?

Okay, it must be Hal.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:47 am

TrackDaddy wrote:National Championships?

Okay, it must be Hal.


Work with me here....

There was nothing else for him to win in his time. So all he did was run WR's and win everything avaiiable to him. What sprinter loses but two races in 4 years, as a 100/200 man? He was running WR's in junior college. Not too familiar with him are you?

paste.....


World War II deprived Harold Davis of the international recognition that should have been his. During the early 1940s, Davis rightfully held the title "World's Fastest Human," winning just about every major sprint title over a four-year period. In 1941, Davis tied Jesse Owens' world 100m dash record of 10.2 while a student at Salinas Junior College under Hall of Fame coach Bud Winter. He then transferred to the University of California, where he was coached by another Hall of Famer, Brutus Hamilton. There, Davis won the national collegiate 100 and 220 yard titles in 1942 and 1943. Overall, he won the AAU 100 title three times and was a four-time champion in the AAU 200. Nicknamed the "California Comet," Davis first came to attention while in high school, where he ran the 100 yards in 9.7 and the 220 in 21.0. In one of his first major college races, the NCAA 100 yard dash final, he stumbled, fell to the ground, recovered and made up five to seven meters on the field in finishing fourth. Thereafter, the only major race he lost was in the 1941 AAU 100 meters where he was narrowly beaten by fellow Hall of Famer Barney Ewell. A poor starter, Davis had an extremely fast finish and was at his best in the longer 200 meter race, in which he ran 20.4 on a straight course and was twice timed in a wind-aided 20.2. In 1946, he sustained a serious hamstring injury and never again attained top form.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:54 am

Avante wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:National Championships?

Okay, it must be Hal.


Work with me here....

There was nothing else for him to win in his time. So all he did was run WR's and win everything avaiiable to him. What sprinter loses but two races in 4 years, as a 100/200 man? He was running WR's in junior college. Not too familiar with him are you?


No, I'm not familiar with him but admittedly he resume does sound rather impressive.

However I'm not sure that national championships should be mentioned even though thats all he had. I wouldn't doubt that several people would have him beat there; not to mention the "bye" defending world champions get today in their respective national championships. And yes, I understand that there was no WC in his day.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:03 am

TrackDaddy wrote:
Avante wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:National Championships?

Okay, it must be Hal.


Work with me here....

There was nothing else for him to win in his time. So all he did was run WR's and win everything avaiiable to him. What sprinter loses but two races in 4 years, as a 100/200 man? He was running WR's in junior college. Not too familiar with him are you?


No, I'm not familiar with him but admittedly he resume does sound rather impressive.

However I'm not sure that national championships should be mentioned even though thats all he had. I wouldn't doubt that several people would have him beat there; not to mention the "bye" defending world champions get today in their respective national championships. And yes, I understand that there was no WC in his day.


It's all about dominating your era. That's all an athlete can do. Hal Davis was by far the greatest sprinter in the world from 1940-43. He's a legend!

Tyson Gay is getting smacked around by Usain Bolt after getting smacked around by Asafa Powell. Ray Norton had an Olympics to compete in, he crashed and burned. We didn'tsee Davis get beat up by a couple different guys or running in an Olympics without medaling like Ray Norton.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:21 am

Avante wrote:
It's all about dominating your era. That's all an athlete can do. Hal Davis was by far the greatest sprinter in the world from 1940-43. He's a legend!


I could argue it if Powell wasnt eliminated because of his relay medal. He's been a model of consistency outside of majors and was dominant for just as long between about 2005 and last year sans his Osaka performance. Not only holding the WR during that period but breaking it twice. Not to mention his consistent performances below 10 seconds that everyone wants to dismiss. Thats a truly amazing feat though. However, I do understand he's been eliminated from discussion because of his relay medal.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:24 am

TrackDaddy wrote:
Avante wrote:
It's all about dominating your era. That's all an athlete can do. Hal Davis was by far the greatest sprinter in the world from 1940-43. He's a legend!


I could argue it if Powell wasnt eliminated because of his relay medal. He's been a model of consistency outside of majors and was dominant for just as long between about 2005 and last year sans his Osaka performance. Not only holding the WR during that period but breaking twice. Not to mention his consistent performances below 10 seconds. I do understand he's been eliminated from discussion because of his relay medal.


Once again we have to go with what an athlete did in his era. Asafa Powell is not a Champion sprinter, he runs fast times. When faced with a Championship situation Hal Davis won 7 of 8 Championships, he was a winner something Asafa Powell isn't.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:57 am

Asafa Powell has won national championships too.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

TrackDaddy wrote:Asafa Powell has won national championships too.


In both sprints?

If you're into the history of Sprintdom, Hal Davis is one of the greats. I seriously doubt he's losing the 1940 Olympic 100/200. In a major Championship I'm not betting on Asafa Powell...oh no!
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Postby gh » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:54 am

No. 1s in the T&FN World Rankings (1947 on) who never won an individual Olympic medal:

Jim Golliday ('51, '55)
Willie Williams ('53)
Heinz Fütterer ('54)
Ray Norton ('59)
Frank Budd ('61)
George Anderson ('65)
Steve Williams ('73, '75)
Eugen Ray ('77)
James Sanford ('79)
Stanley Floyd ('80)
Raymond Stewart ('89)
Leroy Burrell ('90, '91)
Dwain Chambers ('02)
John Capel ('03)
Asafa Powell ('06)
Tyson Gay ('07)

***note also John Carlos (’69, '70), with no medal in the 100.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:39 pm

Great list.

Hmmm...if we omit the relay medal looks like former WR holder Burrell belongs in the conversation too.

It's been 20 years since Ray Stewart was #1?

I'm getting old. :?
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Postby bambam » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:18 pm

gh wrote:No. 1s in the T&FN World Rankings (1947 on) who never won an individual Olympic medal:

Jim Golliday ('51, '55)
Willie Williams ('53)
Heinz Fütterer ('54)
Ray Norton ('59)
Frank Budd ('61)
George Anderson ('65)
Steve Williams ('73, '75)
Eugen Ray ('77)
James Sanford ('79)
Stanley Floyd ('80)
Raymond Stewart ('89)
Leroy Burrell ('90, '91)
Dwain Chambers ('02)
John Capel ('03)
Asafa Powell ('06)
Tyson Gay ('07)

***note also John Carlos (’69, '70), with no medal in the 100.


Well, we can eliminate Eugen Ray from this discussion
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Postby gh » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:52 pm

whilst keeping Heinz Fütterer?
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Postby Per Andersen » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:43 pm

gh wrote:whilst keeping Heinz Fütterer?

Why pick on those guys while George Anderson is on the list?
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Postby Avante » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:01 am

gh wrote:No. 1s in the T&FN World Rankings (1947 on) who never won an individual Olympic medal:

Jim Golliday ('51, '55)
Willie Williams ('53)
Heinz Fütterer ('54)
Ray Norton ('59)
Frank Budd ('61)
George Anderson ('65)
Steve Williams ('73, '75)
Eugen Ray ('77)
James Sanford ('79)
Stanley Floyd ('80)
Raymond Stewart ('89)
Leroy Burrell ('90, '91)
Dwain Chambers ('02)
John Capel ('03)
Asafa Powell ('06)
Tyson Gay ('07)

***note also John Carlos (’69, '70), with no medal in the 100.


Not that they were number one ranked, just adding to the list....

Howard Drew...1912
George Simpson...1932
Eulace Peacock...1936
Rey Robinson...1972
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Postby Rob » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:18 pm

bambam wrote:Well, we can eliminate Eugen Ray from this discussion


Why?

And if I can guess your predictable insinuations, why do you leap on Ray and not Chambers?
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