Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44" athlete...


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Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44" athlete...

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:29 am

Last day, while watching some archives on video
about the mythical MEXICO Olympics, something
attracted my attention:
Larry JAMES's incredible finish at the 400m final
won in 43"86 by Lee Edward EVANS.
This long-limbed young quarter-miler was second
in a sensational 43"97.
His flying 43"2 leg at the 4x400m relay had made
him definitively enter the legend of 400m.
Very strangely, I have never found any article
specifically written about this meteorit.
Did he stop his career just after Mexico?
Of course, we all know the political context in
1968, that didn't allow his fantastic US
generation -the best ever?- to become track
professionals.
Is he still sharing his experience of track
with the younger generations, nowadays?
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:44 am

This is actually an interesting question; where is The King to answer it?
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:48 am

His career didn't end after Mexico City. If you check out the archived World Rankings on the front page of this site you can easily discover that he was No. 6 in the world in both 1969 and 1970. Now coaches at some college in New Jersey I believe.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 11:51 am

And then he did turn professional. He was on the ITA pro-track tour for several years.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:47 pm

Larry is the Athletic Director of Stockton State College outside Atlantic City and serves as the Chairman of the Budget Committee of USATF. I believe he is up for the Track & Field Hall of Fame this year along with Mexico City teammate John Carlos.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 1:56 pm

A truly undeserving Hall of Famer if ever there was one: a single silver medal gets in while there are countless gold medalists who haven't? A guy who never won a single national title and who won the NCAA only once?

The old-boy network strikes again.

(A nice-nice guy who was a valuable member of the '68 team, but a hall of famer he's not)
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:20 pm

"A truly undeserving Hall of Famer if ever there was one: a single silver medal gets in while there are countless gold medalists who haven't? A guy who never won a single national title and who won the NCAA only once?
The old-boy network strikes again.
(A nice-nice guy who was a valuable member of the '68 team, but a hall of famer he's not)"


Well, there's more to it than his medal count. He did run 43.97, in 1968 no less. Last I checked, nobody is running that time now, 35 years later.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby The King » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:29 pm

Profile of Larry James from www.runningnetwork.com

''Born November 6, 1947. A double medalist at the 1968 Olympic Games in Mexico City, Larry James also set world records and won NCAA titles during his track career. James won the silver medal in the 400 meters with his time of 43.97 seconds at the 1968 Olympics, bettering the existing world record but placing him second behind teammate Lee Evans (43.86). James added a gold medal at the 1968 Olympics by running the third leg on Team USA's winning 4x400m relay team, which set the world record of 2 minutes, 56.16 seconds, which lasted until 1992. James set the 400m world record of 44.1 seconds in placing second to Lee Evans at the 1968 Olympic Trials at Echo Summit, Calif., when Evans' winning time of 44.0 was disallowed by the IAAF because he wore illegal brush spike shoes. James was the 400m hurdles gold medalist at the 1970 World University Games, where he ran the anchor leg on Team USA's gold medal winning 4x400m relay team (3:03.33). As a collegian at Villanova, James won the NCAA 440 title in 1970 and NCAA indoor crowns at that distance in 1968-1969 and 1970.''

The USATF website say this about Larry James after Track & Field,
''James is currently the Dean of Athletics and Recreational Programs and Services at the Richard Stockton College of New Jersey''
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby 6 5.5hjsteve » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:49 pm

that's all good info., but who can tell us where he went to high school, and also tell the name of the best quarter miler on that team... it was not Larry !!!
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 2:58 pm

Well, there's more to it
>than his medal count. He did run 43.97, in 1968
>no less. Last I checked, nobody is running that
>time now, 35 years later.>>

If they ran the Nationals in Mexico City every year there probably wouldn't have been a year since 1968 when somebody didn't break 44.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby 6 5.5hjsteve » Thu Oct 30, 2003 3:09 pm

And his 44.1 was at Echo Summit ('way up there) as well.

No knock on Larry, what a superb athlete, but he just got elected to the T&FN Hall of Fame, and I for one do not think he is deserving. Sorry Larry.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:16 pm

I am sorry that you think that Larry " The Mighty Burner" James is an unknown sub 44s 400m star. Because he was amegastar from 1968 thru 1972. although he narrowly missed the 1972 Olmpic team. The burner was recruited by Jumbo Elliot in !966 as probably the third fastest 400m man on his White Plains New York high school team. Possibly the smoothest quartemiler ever. He was the 1969 and 1971 440 yard outdoor champion. He helped Villanova win six Championship of America Relay titles at the Penn Relays. All of this was at a time when freshman were not eligible. Probably the most memorable of these was the 68 Mile relay demolishing of Rice's Dale Bernauer while the Owl anhor was running avery credible 45.9 leg. Heis the most beautiful runner I've seen in my 40 years of watching T & F.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:36 pm

I don't know where you get your facts but if this is not Hall of Famer there should not be one> HAVE you lost all of your track sense or did you ever have any.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Oct 30, 2003 5:56 pm

Excuse me track fans but Larry was the 1968 and 1970 NCaa 400-440m champ. My bad
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby tandfman » Thu Oct 30, 2003 6:24 pm

>that's all good info., but who can tell us where
he went to high school, and also tell the name of
the best quarter miler on that team... it was not
Larry !!!<

OK, this is off the top of my head after several glasses of wine, but my recollection is that it was White Plains (NY) HS and if Larry wasn't the best, it would have been Otis Hill.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:24 am

"If they ran the Nationals in Mexico City every year there probably wouldn't have been a year since 1968 when somebody didn't break 44."


There are plenty of races at altitude these days and nobody is breaking 44.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby 6 5.5hjsteve » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:01 am

tandfman, go to the head of the class !!!
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby 6 5.5hjsteve » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:06 am

and # 1 coach, it's difficult to downgrade anyone like Larry. He was a great athlete. But again, if every athlete with accomplishments equal to his was admitted to the Hall of Fame, they would have to double its membership. And again please, not a knock on him one bit. I too saw him run many times.

I am NOT trying to start a controversy here !!!
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:26 am

"But again, if every athlete with accomplishments equal to his was admitted to the Hall of Fame, they would have to double its membership."


There are not enough other athletes who have run sub-44 to double the membership in the hall of fame.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby 6 5.5hjsteve » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:33 am

what a stupid remark. Is the Hall of Fame only open to quartermilers?
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:44 am

Larry James could only be considered "unknown" by people who don't know much of anything.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 31, 2003 6:48 am

Steve, you said "accomplishments equal to his."

I take that to mean accomplishments that are exactly the same as his.

If you meant "athletes with equivalent accomplishments in other events," you should have said that. However, if that's what you meant I am not sure how we would figure out the exact equivalent of a 43.97 at other distances. I'd bet that there aren't too many athletes that would qualify.

Bottom line: he was clearly ahead of his era, and he would have beaten everyone handily in 2003 with a 43.97.

However, I will try to keep my "stupid" comments to myself in the future.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby 6 5.5hjsteve » Fri Oct 31, 2003 7:05 am

no name, I apologize for the "stupid", that was uncalled for. Sorry.

Yes, I meant "equivalent, etc." Sure his 43.97 was great, as was his 44.1h, but the fact remains that they were altitude assisted, which had to help about.3 or .4, who knows ? And he never won national championships except for 2 NCAA titles. Sure he might have been more dominant if he wads around today, but he has to be avaluated on his actual accomplishments, and I think you are giving too much weight to his 43.97. As good as it was, he lost, it was at altitude, and too my knowlege, other than the 43.97 and the 44.1 h( altitude too) he never ran in the low 44's subsequently, and won no titles other than the 2 NCAA titles mentioned above. That's not up to snuff for the HPOF IMHO. Peace.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:48 am

>Excuse me track fans but Larry was the 1968 and
>1970 NCaa 400-440m champ. My bad>>

No, he won the 1968 INDOOR champs, where Lee Evans didn't run. World of difference.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:49 am

>There are plenty of races at altitude
>these days and nobody is breaking 44.>>

I said if they ran NATIONALS at Mexico City's altitude: the quality of the meet is a key component.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:16 pm

TO ALL OUT THERE LARRY JAMES WAS GREAT&MAJOR HALL OF FAME MATERIAL.HE STILL HOLDS THE 2 FASTEST INDOOR 500YDS. TIMES EVER 53.9 NEVER EVER APPROACHED LEE EVEANS RAN 54.4 TWICE.UP ON THE BOARDS THAT WAS INCREDIBLE.YOU NEED TO ALSO GET THE VIDEO OF JAMES AT PENN RELAYS HIS LEGG BY SOME IN THE STANDS WAS 42.9//42.9//43.1 IT ALSO WAS INCREDIBLE&YES HE&TOMMIE SMITH LEE EVANS-JOHN SMITH--&SEVERAL OTHERS WERE ALL MICHAEL JOHNSON TYPES.

ONE FINAL NOTE:-LARRY JAMES,BECAUSE OF NO MONEY IN TRACK,POLITICS,,WAS RUMORED TO HAVE THOUGHTS ABOUT MONTREAL IN 76-800.HE ALSO RAN 1:08 FLAT FOR 600YDS.--HE ONCE THOUGHT MAYBEE JUST MAYBEE
1:39 WAS POSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:47 am

Larry James is the atletic director at Richard Stockton College in Pomona, NJ. Larry has been at Stockton since the early 70's. For years he ran "The Mighty Burner Track Camp" during the summer at the college. The camp stressed success in life not just athletics. Larry just returned from Paris where he was the manager for the men's team. He continues to have an active role in USATF.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:09 am

OK, this is off the top
>of my head after several glasses of wine, but my
>recollection is that it was White Plains (NY) HS
>and if Larry wasn't the best, it would have been
>Otis Hill.

Is Otis Hill the father of Otis Hill, who played on Syracuse's 1996 NCAA Final Four hoop team that lost to Kentucky in the Championship?
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comments

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:27 am

as Jeff Hollobaugh said last year when they put in Torrence and Earl Bell, there are three people in history who have won the 400 and 4x400 gold medals while setting world records in both events.
Lee Evans is one, and he's in the HOF. Otis Davis and William Carr are not. I'm not saying Larry James wasn't a stud here, but before placing Larrabee and James, you might want to look at these other guys too.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby 6 5.5hjsteve » Tue Nov 04, 2003 8:31 am

DF, that, I do not know. Maybe someone else does. Age differential would be about right.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:23 am

Larry James was one of the greatest 400 meters runnes of all time. In 1968 at the Penn Relays he was clocked in under 43 seconds on his great anchor leg running down a 45 second Rice University 400 man. Larry ran the fastest ever 500 yards and won numerous NCAA titles. He is well deserving of the T&F Hall of Fame. More importantly Larry is a great Husband, Father, son, friend and a great administrator. He has my love and respect.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby gh » Thu Nov 06, 2003 6:16 am

No sub-43: he ran 43.9 for 440y (=43.6). But he's not "one of the great 400m runners of all-time." Very-very good, and perhaps worthy of the Hall of Fame at some point in time, but while there are so many far superior candidates who havent' been inducted, his choice should be viewed as premature, at best.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Thu Nov 06, 2003 4:57 pm

neitheranunknownorhof
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby OLCATs_Editor » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:39 pm

Right on point!

The facts speak for themselves.

In spite of advances in technology, equipment, knowledge and training techniques, his accomplishments have been seldom, if ever, duplicated at any altitude.

In the areas of character and commitment to the sport, however, we could well appreciate more people like him today.

(For more of my views, if interested, just look up "OLCATs Online Coaching Assistant Tools" on a major search engine. Meanwhile, please give Mr Larry James his overdue respect and honor.)
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:39 pm

Does anyone know Larry James 400m best at sea level. That might put things in perspective.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Tue Nov 11, 2003 4:56 pm

44.9 (converted 45.2 for 440y), not making him among the 50 (maybe even 60) fastest Americans ever. The guys lucky enough to run at Mexico in 1968 have been deified WAY beyond their true stature.

Otis Davis ran 44.9 when it was a World Record (on dirt I might add) and won the gold medal in doing so (after setting new Olympic Records in both his quarterfinal and semifinal). Eight years later James, another 44.9 guy, wins silver and he beats Davis into the HOF? Sorry, does not compute.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:49 am

Is Herb McKenley historys first sub 46 quarter miler and the first man to split sub 45 on a relay leg in the Hall of Fame ?

He doesn't have an individual gold medal either but his credentials are impressive. Three Olympic silvers in individual events, world records, fastest relay split for years and numerous collegiate honours won plus.......

How does Larry stack up against someone like him?
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby 6 5.5hjsteve » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:54 am

minor problem...... the USATF Hall of Fame is for US citizens only.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby Guest » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:22 am

>minor problem...... the USATF Hall of Fame is for
>US citizens only.>>

Is it? There are certainly coaches in there who started their careers competing in other countries and never represented the U.S. and may never have taken out citizenship.
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Re: Larry JAMES, the most unknown sub-44

Postby 6 5.5hjsteve » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:32 am

well, I am just assuming that it's for US citizens only; can't imagine otherwise. I think I'd bet the farm on it. Otherwise a raft of foreign athletes who competed for US schools would be in such as Henry Rono, Herb McKenley, etc. Maybe they are looser on coaches ? Who in particular are you thinking of ?
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