Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History


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Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:42 am

Carl lewis is the greatest sprinter in history.
We talk about Greene, Montgomery, Hines, Hayes, but Carl is the best. Carl had the capability if of going 9.65 if his strength training would have been a little more aggressive in the earlier years. What do you think?
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 10, 2003 7:21 am

One could argue this until the cows come home. Strength training in the early years? Did Bob Hayes do this - e.g. weights? Can anyone
clarify? My two cents worth would be that I would go with Hayes against any other 100 m man on recent years. Two who could have given even the best (of all time) serious trouble were: Ralph Metcalfe and Hal Davis. If either had learnt how to start properly, they would be well nigh unbeatable. They had more top end speed than anyone else (even perhaps Tommie Smith) often making up yards (metres) on top sprinters after the half way mark.
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:14 am

I go with Hayes also. He would have done to Carl, what Ben Johnson did, only w/out the steroids. But Carl is arguably the 2nd best 100 meter man in history.
Im' curious though if anyone has 200 meter times for Hayes?
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby The King » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:05 am

A 20.2s hand-timed for Hayes over 200m/220yd in 1963 or 1964 I think.
I'll have to properly check it out. I'll post back in under a day.
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:51 pm

Was Hayes time a hand-time and what does it convert to? To may understanding Tim Montgomery is a bad starter. What if Carl was a better starter?
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Thu Sep 11, 2003 10:19 am

Oh no, not this one again . . .

I'll say this: Lewis is the most accomplished sprinter of all time. Hayes dominated his opposition to the greatest degree. The reader can interpret what "greatest" means.

A while back I calculated that over his three-year span at the top of the world, Hayes' average margin of victory over world-ranked foes was 0.16 seconds. Stunning.
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby The King » Thu Sep 11, 2003 11:54 am

>Was Hayes time a hand-time and what does it
>convert to? To may understanding Tim Montgomery
>is a bad starter. What if Carl was a better
>starter?

hayes time to a hand-time comes out as 20.44s.

And regrads to the Carl question, if he had a better start,the adreneline would of been flowing, he wouldn't of hestitated. And I think that the King would of run around the 9.75-9.80s range...
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Fri Sep 12, 2003 6:06 am

>And regrads to the Carl
>question, if he had a better start,the
>adreneline would of been flowing, he wouldn't of
>hestitated. And I think that the King would of
>run around the 9.75-9.80s range...

Depends on what you refer to as "start". Lewis & Tellez broke the race down into block clearance, acceleration, top speed, and deceleration. His block clearance sucked and his acceleration was average, but his great top speed and lack of deceleration was due at least in part to planning. Tellez used calculus to determine where in the race is best to achieve top speed (from 60 to 80 meters ) and calculated that great early-race acceleration was tied to excessive late-race deceleration.

What this means is that some small amount of time was sacrificed in the first 50 meters in order to get it all back and then some in the last 30 meters. Lewis' height also played a role in all of this. I don't think he left much out there (although his largest improvements came when the competition began to beat him).
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby The King » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:14 pm

>>And regards to the Carl
>question, if he had a
>better start,the
>adreneline would of been
>flowing, he wouldn't of
>hestitated. And I think
>that the King would of
>run around the
>9.75-9.80s range...

Depends on what you refer
>to as "start"...
>Lewis' height played a
> big role in all of this. I don't think he left much
>out there (although his largest improvements
>came when the competition began to beat him).

That's a great point about Lewis' height. It did play a major part.

He was(and still is!) 6 ft 2 inches I believe.

However in the winter seasons of 1981-1982 or 1983I believe Tellez put the King through some killer weight sessions and it helps Carl's explosiveness by about 0.02-0.05s from his normal explosiveness in the 1ts 30m-50m.
In the winter of either 1981 or 1982 Carl put down some real killer times for the 60yd sprint.
6.02s,6.04s,6.06s...

If he'd of carried on with those weight sessions I believe that Carl could of run 0.05-0.10s for his overall 100m. That's why I said I believe that he could of run 975-9.80s ultimately for the 100m.
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby The King » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:14 pm

>>And regards to the Carl
>question, if he had a
>better start,the
>adreneline would of been
>flowing, he wouldn't of
>hestitated. And I think
>that the King would of
>run around the
>9.75-9.80s range...

Depends on what you refer
>to as "start"...
>Lewis' height played a
> big role in all of this. I don't think he left much
>out there (although his largest improvements
>came when the competition began to beat him).

That's a great point about Lewis' height. It did play a major part.

He was(and still is!) 6 ft 2 inches I believe.

However in the winter seasons of 1981-1982 or 1983I believe Tellez put the King through some killer weight sessions and it helps Carl's explosiveness by about 0.02-0.05s from his normal explosiveness in the 1ts 30m-50m.
In the winter of either 1981 or 1982 Carl put down some real killer times for the 60yd sprint.
6.02s,6.04s,6.06s...

If he'd of carried on with those weight sessions I believe that Carl could of run 0.05-0.10s for his overall 100m. That's why I said I believe that he could of run 9.75-9.80s ultimately for the 100m.
The King
 
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby The King » Fri Sep 12, 2003 1:14 pm

>>And regards to the Carl
>question, if he had a
>better start,the
>adreneline would of been
>flowing, he wouldn't of
>hestitated. And I think
>that the King would of
>run around the
>9.75-9.80s range...

Depends on what you refer
>to as "start"...
>Lewis' height played a
> big role in all of this. I don't think he left much
>out there (although his largest improvements
>came when the competition began to beat him).

That's a great point about Lewis' height. It did play a major part.

He was(and still is!) 6 ft 2 inches I believe.

However in the winter seasons of 1981-1982 or 1983I believe Tellez put the King through some killer weight sessions and it helps Carl's explosiveness by about 0.02-0.05s from his normal explosiveness in the 1ts 30m-50m.
In the winter of either 1981 or 1982 Carl put down some real killer times for the 60yd sprint.
6.02s,6.04s,6.06s...

If he'd of carried on with those weight sessions I believe that Carl could of run 0.05-0.10s for his overall 100m. That's why I said I believe that he could of run 9.75-9.80s ultimately for the 100m.
The King
 
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:38 am

>However in
>the winter seasons of 1981-1982 or 1983I believe
>Tellez put the King through some killer weight
>sessions and it helps Carl's explosiveness by
>about 0.02-0.05s from his normal explosiveness in
>the 1ts 30m-50m.
In the winter of either 1981 or
>1982 Carl put down some real killer times for the
>60yd sprint.
6.02s,6.04s,6.06s...

If he'd of
>carried on with those weight sessions I believe
>that Carl could of run 0.05-0.10s for his overall
>100m. That's why I said I believe that he could
>of run 9.75-9.80s ultimately for the 100m.

That's assuming that better 60y times automatically mean better 100m times -- a fallacy that Tellez was quite aware of. Did his 100m times improve markedly after that season? I don't have career stats in front of me right now, but I seem to remember his improvement being relatively steady.
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Sun Sep 14, 2003 10:25 am

given the nature of his ability to classically run, better 60yd times absolutely means better 100 meter times. Because we all of us know that Carl was a master at the end of the race. If you put him at 60 yds at 5.9 or better it will just put him, power wise, in a better position to really carry the speed a little long. The More of a power runner you can be in the front-end and the more of a glide runner you can be on the back end. Which means if i can power fast (hitting the ground hard) it sets me up to concentrate on less ground contact in the end. This is Carl lewis model type of runner not the jon drummond type
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:06 am

You can debate all you want. Without a doubt the greatest sprinter to have competed on EARTH to date has been BOB HAYES.

I can not imagine any modern sprinter post '68 duplicating his run at the Tokyo Olympics utilizing the same sort of footwear and running on the same type track.

Bob Hayes time at '64 Olympics would have placed him first at this years World Champs.

I can not even begin to imagine what sort of time he might have run if he was to compete on a track similar to the one at the Atlanta Olympics.

my guess (9.5?.....9.6?)
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:01 pm

i don't think so. all i ever hear is the 1968 race. one race can make you a legend. look at bob beamans 29 foot long jump. just because he had one great jump doesn't make him the greatest. sometimes you can run fast on dirt. maybe all the right things happened that day for hayes, just like it did for maurice greene at the LA Invitational in 1999 where he tied the world record for 50 meters on an old wooden track. Lewis consistantly ran fast, whether in wood, dirt or synthetic. hayes 10.05 was a great run. do we have wind gauges for that era. if so, what was the wind. hayes is great but not the better
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:23 am

>given the nature of his ability to classically
>run, better 60yd times absolutely means better
>100 meter times. Because we all of us know that
>Carl was a master at the end of the race. If you
>put him at 60 yds at 5.9 or better it will just
>put him, power wise, in a better position to
>really carry the speed a little long.

As I understand it, Tellez believes this to be a fallacy. The sooner you get to top speed, the more you decelerate, because it is physically impossible to maintain top speed for more than a certain distance (about 20m).
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 16, 2003 5:40 am

the objective is not to get to top speed by 60. the model that i am talking about uses power as the front-end phase of the 100 meters. if i can run 6.1 for 60 yards and not be at full(turn over speed) than you will still have room for acceleration. the reason sprinters decelerate is because they exert turn over energy to fast. in other words you rush the phases because of insecurity. tellez was right, but only right according to what everybody else except lewis was doing. their rushing the phase cause them to get to top turn over speed to soon. With the right power/strength training you can over come this. the year that lewis got some, above his norm, weight training and he ran those fast 60 yard times, his turn over (frequency) i'm almost sure was the same. the added power work put him at 60 yards when before he was at 58.5 yards Example, i coach a high school track team. i have a sprinter that for the sake of looking at my theory, ran the 100 meter in 12.75 second. i used a training designed to see if this worked. we worked on his ability to use power (force to the ground), and not turnover. he in one year of training has improved to 10.92. that's almost 2 second difference.
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:00 am

"We worked on his ability to use power (force to the ground), and not turnover..."

Could you be more detailed? I don't know exactly what you mean.
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:10 am

Jesse Owens was a pretty decent sprinter, also. I think Hayes is eliminated if you consider the 200 of equal importance. Just like Michael Johnson and Tommie Smith are eliminated because of weak 100's.
Lewis dominated both events over a long period of time, and they were only his 2nd and 3rd best events!
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Re: Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:04 pm

josh, you have to create force before your turn over means anything. if i come out of the blocks to high i am going to come out of power to soon. force to the ground simply means i have to create a push to the earth before my turn over will be worth anything. you can only hold your top speed for about 1.5 seconds thus if i created no power and can only hold my top speed 1.5 seconds then by 60 meters i am cooked. tellez understood it, but the only way to get carl faster than he was, was to emphasis power (the ablility to hit or strike the ground harder in the first 40 meters) it's just like a car wheel turning over with no horse power. the reason lewis ran as-well-as he did is because he used his turn over later after adequately using power to get his body moving. i am saying that his only way to improve was get more powerful in the beginning. if he could have gained an extra .5 inches on to his first 30 strides that's improvement in small increments over a long time.
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Carl Lewis greatest sprinter in History

Postby Guest » Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:18 pm

Carl Lewis is the greatest athlete in U.S. history. He was king of two events, very competent in another, had longevity, and was the greatest anchor in track annals. He could have made the boycotted 1980 Olympic team as well (as could have Nehemiah and Ashford, of course)

Bijan C. Bayne
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