I think my problem.........


Forum devoted to track & field items of an historical nature.

Postby eldrick » Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:42 pm

JohnG wrote:
eldrick wrote:a measure of floyd's greatness, was that he was the first man in history to run two FAT sub-20.10 at low altitude ( & only man to do it in the '70's )

even to this day, seeing 20.0x is still something special


Floyd?!??

Do you mean Borzov? I don't recall any run by him under 20.10 other than the OG final.

I can't find anyone who ran two FAT sub-20.10s at low altitude in the 70s. Clancy Edwards ran 20.03 (1.6) and 20.06 (0.9) and James Mallard ran 20.07 (no reading) and 19.8m(1.6).


my apologies, i meant clancy

they always looked similar to me & got them mixed up
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Postby eldrick » Mon Jan 09, 2006 12:51 pm

JohnG wrote:Floyd beat Wells when Wells was past his season's peak and no longer motivated.


& how much motivation do you think floyd had left ?

for all his career he was trying to get 2 things - a wr & an og, & once the latter that was denied him, how much motivation did he have left in '80 ?

i hardly think the motivation he came up with for a few gp meets was anywhere close to that of an og final

besides, we forget one thing - wells won the most crap 100 final ( time-wise ) in the past 46y in an absolutely derisory time of outside 10.2+ & in a dead-heat photo-finish ( those cubans are still complaining silvio was robbed to this day ! )

if they'd run that final with 3 americans, the chances of all of them not breaking 10.20 is less than zero
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Postby Rob » Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:27 pm

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Postby Daisy » Mon Jan 09, 2006 2:34 pm

I'm with Rob here. I'm not sure the Americans would have been as dominant as some suspect. Wells did pretty well against the US athletes in the Golden sprints if i recall. Do you have his head to heads in those races Rob? I'm not sure what years? Possibly 80 and 81?
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Postby Rob » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:05 pm

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Postby Daisy » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:15 pm

Thats how I remember it Rob. I suppose the US sprinters were just going through the motions, how else could you explain that half second difference? :wink:
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Postby eldrick » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:31 pm

Rob wrote:And with that logic, I'm sure you'll be ready and willing to explain the Golden Sprints' results from Berlin?

I remember very clearly the Americans coming over to Europe in the late 1970s / early 1980s with fast times in nice warm conditions and then being quite mediocre when running under FAT conditions on European tracks.

Let's look at a few results in the lead-up to Moscow:

Remember the 'great' Steve Williams, who only beat Eugen Ray by 0.02 in Düsseldorf, 1977?

Or how about when Sanford took on Wells at the Gateshead Games in July 1978? Wells 'only' ran 10.29 (to win it). Trouble is, James "10.02" Sanford ran 10.39 (for 3rd equal with Don Quarrie).

Or how about the Spartakiade in Moscow, July 1979? Silvio Leonard (you know, the one Wells beat in the OG 100m final) ran a pretty forgettable 10.30 to win it. Trouble is, he was still ~ 1m clear of one of your "urban legends" (Houston McTear, 10.39). Leonard also beat Harvey Glance in the 1979 Pan Am Games (10.13 to 10.19).

I could go on, but it goes to show that the US sprinters didn't always have it their own way. The Moscow final was not ideal for sprinting - cool and blustery. Allan comes from Edinburgh, where it is usually cool and blustery, so he was used to the conditions. Leonard was a sub-10 100 man, but he too 'only' ran 10.25. That's a dual confirmation, if one was needed (taking the above pre-Moscow results into consideration), that the chances of 3 Americans running outside 10.25 was very real indeed. They did it regularly here in Europe.


the motivation for a few gp races is incomparable to that of an og final

the US guys early in their "major" career had come over & found alien conditions, but your talking 1 - 2y before that og final - they are not stupid & very well knew what to expect once they'd made the team & hoped to go to moscow

if you believe their coach/team didn't factor this into account & plan to take them to acclimatise/train in a location with "cool,blustery" conditions to anticipate this, then you are deluding yourself

the majority of the races you are talking about are ones where the US guys step off a plane, from california/texas/florida conditions, stay overnight in a hotel, then get driven to some cold/windy/alien stadium where they race the local hero - i'd hardly expect any different outcome from the results

an og is the ultimately different competition - the US team wouda turned up probably 2 weeks prior to the start, got used to the conditions/weather, trained in them & performed a helluva lot better than stepping off a plane to race in gateshead

in fact, i wouda thought the US sprint team woud have embarked to moscow as soon as practically possible after their trials - they couda got all their acclimatising at the actual location !

as for wells/leonard - leonard had an altitude sub-10, which if converted probably wasn't better than a mid 10.00 - 10.10 & it wasn't run in '80

on sb's for '80, wells' 10.11 was probably better than whatever silvio had, & therefore for silvio to dead-heat wells suggests to me that wells' underperformed in the final

if you run 10.11 in the heats & only manage a 10.2+ in the final, your underperforming in my book !

this suggests to me wells "choked" in the final ( it was his first og final ), but the others ran so crap, that even with his "choke" he managed to find some myopic judge to give him the dead-heat in his favor

i have little doubt that if he "choked" with that actual crap field, that faced with the additional prospect of 3 fired-up US guys in the final, who for a change, were ready & acclimatised, his choking wouda been terminal

3 US guys - ready, acclimatised & raring to go - not one goes sub- mid 10.2 ???

not in this universe
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Postby Brutal » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:39 pm

Daisy wrote:I'm with Rob here. I'm not sure the Americans would have been as dominant as some suspect. Wells did pretty well against the US athletes in the Golden sprints if i recall. Do you have his head to heads in those races Rob? I'm not sure what years? Possibly 80 and 81?


Of the 10 sprinters world ranked in the 100 in 80, 7 were Americans. When you win an Olympics and 7 of the worlds top 10 sprinters weren't eliglble to compete (top 3 anyway) your victory is tainted. I've seen Wells many times as well as Floyd. Floyd wins it in 80!
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Postby Rob » Mon Jan 09, 2006 3:55 pm

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Postby gh » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:05 pm

Rob wrote:And the Americans are usually as sore with any mention of his name, and as quick to go looking for excuses, as they are with Borzov.


Rob, your antipathy towards Americans is well known, but please don't take Brutal's thinking as representative of everyone on these shores.

His dissing of Borzoz while at the same time trumpeting Eddy Hart is an embarrassment.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:09 pm

Rob wrote:His mental resilience in Major Championships was legendary


i've got to have a laugh at this !

his "legendary mental resilience" made him go from the 10.11 in the heat to a 10.25 in the final & get the win on the whimsy of the photo-finish judge

"legendary" is not the adjective to apply to his mental resilience...
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Postby Brutal » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:15 pm

gh wrote:
Rob wrote:And the Americans are usually as sore with any mention of his name, and as quick to go looking for excuses, as they are with Borzov.


Rob, your antipathy towards Americans is well known, but please don't take Brutal's thinking as representative of everyone on these shores.

His dissing of Borzoz while at the same time trumpeting Eddy Hart is an embarrassment.


Did Robert Taylor not beat Borzov on the anchor of a 4x1? Sure he did! They started out even! Did Borzov beat Hart in 72? Nope! Want to go back to Remigino over McKenley or Woodring over Paddock or Hary in 60? Don't be foolish and act like someone the caliber of Eddie Hart can't win any race he was in. There are no "locks". Just ask Justin Gatlin!
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Postby gh » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:23 pm

Brutal wrote:Did Robert Taylor not beat Borzov on the anchor of a 4x1? Sure he did! They started out even!


I'll assume you mean Hart, not Taylor, but the answer remains a clear no. Borzov was about 0.3 down when he got the stick, according to the T&FN story, and that jibes with my memory (I was there--were you?). Athletics Arena, a now-defunct British publication, puts the gap at 4m.
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Postby Brutal » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:30 pm

gh wrote:
Brutal wrote:Did Robert Taylor not beat Borzov on the anchor of a 4x1? Sure he did! They started out even!


I'll assume you mean Hart, not Taylor, but the answer remains a clear no. Borzov was about 0.3 down when he got the stick, according to the T&FN story, and that jibes with my memory (I was there--were you?). Athletics Arena, a now-defunct British publication, puts the gap at 4m.


Nope wrong race. It was Texas Southern's Robert Taylor who smoked him. Hart handed off to him. There is a picture of this in one of the Track&Field News issues. Not sure which one. It shows Hart screaming at Taylor.I'm guessing ..."GO!"

Go ahead check it out.

I saw it on TV. Trust me I know who Robert Taylor was.
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Postby gh » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:32 pm

Brutal wrote:... Did Borzov beat Hart in 72? Nope!


I've got a better one for you: did Hart beat Borzov in '72? Nope!

Here's the list of guys who beat Borzov in '72:

And here's the list of guys who beat him in '71:

No, nothing wrong with your machine, NOBODY beat Borzov in '71 or '72 (although he admittedly didnt' have a steady diet of American competition).

Now check out this list of names: Ravelomantsoa, Edmonson, Deckard, Bobby Turner, Miller, Robinson, Mennea. What's that? That's the list of guys that beat Hart in '72. Bobby Freakin' Turner?
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:38 pm

hey brutal, i love ya blues bro. but your starting to scare the children.
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Postby Brutal » Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:41 pm

gh wrote:
Brutal wrote:... Did Borzov beat Hart in 72? Nope!


I've got a better one for you: did Hart beat Borzov in '72? Nope!

Here's the list of guys who beat Borzov in '72:

And here's the list of guys who beat him in '71:

No, nothing wrong with your machine, NOBODY beat Borzov in '71 or '72 (although he admittedly didnt' have a steady diet of American competition).

Now check out this list of names: Ravelomantsoa, Edmonson, Deckard, Bobby Turner, Miller, Robinson, Mennea. What's that? That's the list of guys that beat Hart in '72. Bobby Freakin' Turner?


Who was Borzov beating in 71 and 72?
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Postby marknhj » Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:00 pm

Eldy - come on now - the guy who won the Olympic Gold in the 100m underperformed and choked?...Rob is spot on with his observations of Allan and Borzov.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Jan 09, 2006 5:08 pm

marknhj wrote:Eldy - come on now - the guy who won the Olympic Gold in the 100m underperformed and choked?...Rob is spot on with his observations of Allan and Borzov.


marco

didn't ottey choke & just about hold on for a wc 200 win ?

i do prefer a win, with some majesty...
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Postby ajp » Mon Jan 09, 2006 9:12 pm

Can anyone fill in the gaps and/or correct mistakes?

32 - Craig - ko'd in semis
36 - Tolan - no idea
48 - Owens - pro, WW2, etc
52 - Dillard - 110mH gold, did he run the 100 at the US trials?
56 - Remigino - no idea
60 - Morrow - did he make the US trials final? Don't think he'd retired.
64 - Hary - injured, retired
68 - Hayes - NFL
72 - Hines - NFL/eligibility?[/quote]

If memory serves me correctly:

Dillard ran only hurdles in 1952
Remegino retired
Morrow made it to the 200 final at the OT and I think finished 4th
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Postby Vern » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:42 am

Brutal wrote:
gh wrote:
Brutal wrote:Did Robert Taylor not beat Borzov on the anchor of a 4x1? Sure he did! They started out even!


I'll assume you mean Hart, not Taylor, but the answer remains a clear no. Borzov was about 0.3 down when he got the stick, according to the T&FN story, and that jibes with my memory (I was there--were you?). Athletics Arena, a now-defunct British publication, puts the gap at 4m.


Nope wrong race. It was Texas Southern's Robert Taylor who smoked him. Hart handed off to him. There is a picture of this in one of the Track&Field News issues. Not sure which one. It shows Hart screaming at Taylor.I'm guessing ..."GO!"

Go ahead check it out.

I saw it on TV. Trust me I know who Robert Taylor was.


Call me a cynic, but I'll take a one metre, easing up, 100m OG over an obscure relay anchor defeat any time. Bet Taylor would too.

Wells - he was a formidable competitor. Only "major" I can think of where he didn't do himself justice was the 78 Europeans (Borzov's last race, IIRC), which (IIRC again) was at the end of Wells' breakthrough season, and after the Commonwealths.

Don't forget he beat Christie in 86 - no other Brit managed that for a decade.

Pop quiz - and who was that next Brit?
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Postby eldrick » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:48 am

Vern wrote:Don't forget he beat Christie in 86 - no other Brit managed that for a decade.

Pop quiz - and who was that next Brit?


the future 200m og silver medalist, doreen campbell ?
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Postby Vern » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:56 am

eldrick wrote:
Vern wrote:Don't forget he beat Christie in 86 - no other Brit managed that for a decade.

Pop quiz - and who was that next Brit?


the future 200m og silver medalist, doreen campbell ?


Nope.....
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Postby Vern » Tue Jan 10, 2006 12:57 am

ajp wrote:Can anyone fill in the gaps and/or correct mistakes?

32 - Craig - ko'd in semis
36 - Tolan - no idea
48 - Owens - pro, WW2, etc
52 - Dillard - 110mH gold, did he run the 100 at the US trials?
56 - Remigino - no idea
60 - Morrow - did he make the US trials final? Don't think he'd retired.
64 - Hary - injured, retired
68 - Hayes - NFL
72 - Hines - NFL/eligibility?


If memory serves me correctly:

Dillard ran only hurdles in 1952
Remegino retired
Morrow made it to the 200 final at the OT and I think finished 4th[/quote]

Thanks. Anyone know about Eddie Tolan? He must have still been young enough in '36?
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Postby Rob » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:53 am

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Postby Daisy » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:53 am

Vern wrote:Pop quiz - and who was that next Brit?

Did jason Livingston ever beat him indoors?
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Postby eldrick » Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:57 am

Rob wrote:Oh well, since I appear to know nothing about sprinting, or sprinters (in the view of my American friends)


don't fret rob, you know plenty much about sprinting !

don't you realise when the guyz here post controversial posts just to stoke up your fire ! :P
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Postby Vern » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:02 am

eldrick wrote:
Rob wrote:Oh well, since I appear to know nothing about sprinting, or sprinters (in the view of my American friends)


don't fret rob, you know plenty much about sprinting !

don't you realise when the guyz here post controversial posts just to stoke up your fire ! :P


Not me, Rob's my mate, remember?!

Mackie is of course correct. Even by the high standards of great-white-hope-Brit-sprinters, he had terrible luck with injuries.

He retired recently, I believe.
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Postby Vern » Tue Jan 10, 2006 2:08 am

Daisy wrote:
Vern wrote:Pop quiz - and who was that next Brit?

Did jason Livingston ever beat him indoors?


Not that I recall. Found a pb of 6.51 for Livingstone from 92, nothing else under 6.6, which I'd guess would be a minimum requirement to head Christie. Or maybe not.... Jon?
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Postby Andrea_T » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:08 am

Vern wrote:
Daisy wrote:
Vern wrote:Pop quiz - and who was that next Brit?

Did jason Livingston ever beat him indoors?


Not that I recall. Found a pb of 6.51 for Livingstone from 92, nothing else under 6.6, which I'd guess would be a minimum requirement to head Christie. Or maybe not.... Jon?


A good resource is Larsson's site. He has Livinston down as also running 6.53, 6.54, 6.55, 6.58 x 3....
He met Christie in Brum in 92, Christie won, 6.57 to 6.58.
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Postby Rob » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:41 am

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80 OG 100m

Postby Rog » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:54 am

With regard to Allan Wells choking in the 80 Olympic 100m final, which he won in the relatively slow time of 10.25, don't forget that everyone's times were down in that race, suggesting the effect of adverse atmospheric conditions rather than individual temperament. The likes of Woronin and Panzo couldn't break 10.4 and these were world class sprinters. Petar Petrov took the bronze in 10.39 and he had run 10.13 in the QF so he was obviously in form, yet Wells beat him by .14!

James Sanford showed incredible form in early 80 (9.88w I think) but was injured for most of the season, which turned out to be the bane of his career. None of the other US sprinters was performing at the level of more recent stars like Lewis or Greene at that time, and they certainly didn't have their domination either. In his first post OG 100m Wells faced the top Americans and beat them. After then he had passed his peak, however one would expect that in their first encounter with the new OG champ the Americans would have been most anxious to secure victory, yet couldn't.

Also worth remembering that no less an authority than Don Quarrie said that Wells 200m in the 81 Golden Sprints was the greatest half-lap he had ever seen, which considering his own achievements was quite a gracious comment.
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Postby dj » Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:05 am

Vern wrote:
ajp wrote:Thanks. Anyone know about Eddie Tolan? He must have still been young enough in '36?


Retired. He was already one year out of college when he won OG in '32. Also remember that the Depression had hit. Not capitalizing on one's athletic fame at that time (and thus professionalizing one's self) could have been economic suicide.
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Postby Brutal » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:34 am

Vern wrote:
Brutal wrote:
gh wrote:
Brutal wrote:Did Robert Taylor not beat Borzov on the anchor of a 4x1? Sure he did! They started out even!


I'll assume you mean Hart, not Taylor, but the answer remains a clear no. Borzov was about 0.3 down when he got the stick, according to the T&FN story, and that jibes with my memory (I was there--were you?). Athletics Arena, a now-defunct British publication, puts the gap at 4m.


Nope wrong race. It was Texas Southern's Robert Taylor who smoked him. Hart handed off to him. There is a picture of this in one of the Track&Field News issues. Not sure which one. It shows Hart screaming at Taylor.I'm guessing ..."GO!"

Go ahead check it out.

I saw it on TV. Trust me I know who Robert Taylor was.


Call me a cynic, but I'll take a one metre, easing up, 100m OG over an obscure relay anchor defeat any time. Bet Taylor would too.

Wells - he was a formidable competitor. Only "major" I can think of where he didn't do himself justice was the 78 Europeans (Borzov's last race, IIRC), which (IIRC again) was at the end of Wells' breakthrough season, and after the Commonwealths.

Don't forget he beat Christie in 86 - no other Brit managed that for a decade.

Pop quiz - and who was that next Brit?


Point was that Borzov wasn't invincible. Yes Robert Taylor beat him with stick in hand, yes he didn't face the top two Americans and yes Larry Black had that tight lane 1. Just facts!
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Postby Andrea_T » Tue Jan 10, 2006 7:42 am

Rob wrote: That looks like my friend Fr. Bußmann who is being referred to in your signature...

49.75 drugs-free in 1983. And attractive.


Sure is. Harsh comments from Kratochvilova after bein gcriticised by Gaby in the press. But very amusing though!
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Postby paulthefan » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:28 am

Brutal wrote:Point was that Borzov wasn't invincible. Yes Robert Taylor beat him with stick in hand, yes he didn't face the top two Americans and yes Larry Black had that tight lane 1. Just facts!



And a point that you have yet to make convincing... if I am the best and my competitors dont show up should I be viewed as any less than best... Im a big fan of Larry Black and a big critic of the lane 1 curse in the 200 but to suggest that Borzov was anything less than a monster in the 200 is making you sound weird.... almost as weird as your firm conviction that Randy Moss was a 9.7 100y man as a 14 year old.

from now on .. please Just the facts.
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Postby gh » Tue Jan 10, 2006 9:57 am

Brutal wrote:
gh wrote:
Brutal wrote:Did Robert Taylor not beat Borzov on the anchor of a 4x1? Sure he did! They started out even!


I'll assume you mean Hart, not Taylor, but the answer remains a clear no. Borzov was about 0.3 down when he got the stick, according to the T&FN story, and that jibes with my memory (I was there--were you?). Athletics Arena, a now-defunct British publication, puts the gap at 4m.


Nope wrong race. It was Texas Southern's Robert Taylor who smoked him. Hart handed off to him. There is a picture of this in one of the Track&Field News issues. Not sure which one. It shows Hart screaming at Taylor.I'm guessing ..."GO!"

Go ahead check it out.

I saw it on TV. Trust me I know who Robert Taylor was.


I can't find any evidence of any such race. Taylor didn't run against Borzov in the US-USSR of either '71 or '73 (which would have nothing to do with the Olympics anyway), nor did he anchor at either of the pre-Oly meets in Munich where the U.S. ran. May have happened, but I can't find it.
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Postby EPelle » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:12 am

The only Taylor-anchored team ranked in 1971:

#21 (performance)
39,6my
Ron Washington, W. Polk, Er. Williams, R. Taylor 1 Pasadena TX 28-May-1971

Borzov-anchored team in 1971:

#9 (performance)
39,2m
Pankratov, Kuzhukin, Zorkin, Borzov URS 1 NC Moskva 16-Jul-1971
_______________________________________

Taylor anchored no sub-40,00 teams in 1972
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Re: 80 OG 100m

Postby eldrick » Tue Jan 10, 2006 10:53 am

Rog wrote:Petar Petrov took the bronze in 10.39 and he had run 10.13 in the QF so he was obviously in form, yet Wells beat him by .14!


a guy i never even heard of runs 10.13 ( ? legal time ), only 0.02s slower than well's lifetime best, set at same meet

so wells wasn't alone in setting a lifetime pb there

if an "unknown" coud set a pb within 0.02s of wells, i'm convinced now that it was possible for 1 - 3 more "established" sprinters ( i.e. the missing US guys ) to have done the same

atmospheric conditions may have slowed the final, but it looks to me they affected wells more than leonard, seeing as well's had a faster time during the meet ( & possibly sb ) than silvio

if silvio "coped" with the conditions better than wells, i see no reason that 1 or more of the US guyz coudn't have done the same

the postulation that wells & the europeans handled the conditions better woud have been better suited if wells/petrov had dead-heated & silvio placed 0.14s behind them, as silvio was a sprinter used to similar weather conditions as the americans, so if he coped with them, than the possibility that 1 or more of the missing 3 coud have done so is eminently possible

i'm more convinced than ever, that at least 1 or more of the 3 US guys was capable of the gold in view of the above

After then he had passed his peak, however one would expect that in their first encounter with the new OG champ the Americans would have been most anxious to secure victory, yet couldn't.


reasonable assumption, but it's difficult to keep up full motivation for a gp meet if your whole season ( & as it turned out, your whole career ) has gone down the toilet

Also worth remembering that no less an authority than Don Quarrie said that Wells 200m in the 81 Golden Sprints was the greatest half-lap he had ever seen, which considering his own achievements was quite a gracious comment.


do you have details of that race ? - wells had a 20.21 lifetime pb & quarrie a 20.06 one ( low-altitude ), so that must have been a good race if quarrie said that
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Postby Rob » Tue Jan 10, 2006 11:11 am

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