US Olympic Relay Teams in 68

[Guest]

I don't want to get into a political discussuion, this is only hypothetical.
But could any of you imagine a 68' 4X100 meter relay team of Charles Green lead-off, (He ran a good curve to be considered an exclusive 100 meter man), Ronnie Ray Smith second leg (A 9.9 sprinter running second leg is always nice to have) John Carlos third (If anyone saw the curve he ran in the 200 final in 68' Olympic final they would understand why, and Jim Ray Hines anchor, he had a very strong close.
Side note: No offense to Mel Pender, he was a dynamite 100 man, with arguably the best start in the world at that time, but Greens curve
coupled with R. Smith's finish would take precedent over Pender's strength's.

Secondly, if Tommie Smith would have been allowed to run in the 4X400 meter relay. L. Evans lead-off, R. Freeman 2nd, L . James 3rd and T. Smith anchor. I may stir up an argument ot two hear, but IMO, that team would still own the world record in this year of 2003. Because if anyone witnessed that race. Evans was so far ahead, that he didn't run as hard as he could have, and if he would have led-off he would have been challenged a little more (Asati, Kenya 44.8 lead-off split), couple that with the facttha Smith would have tore it up all the way around the track. Smith ran a 43.8 split in the 67' Pan Am Games without being pushed. I venture to say that team would have flirted with a 2:54:00 or better.
Peace
JP

[The King]

I agree with your views on both the 4x100m and 4x400m relays for Men in the 1968 Mexico City Olympic Games.
But if Smith and Carlos had been allowed to stay at the 1968 OG, despite their protest, I would of loved to see Smith and Carlos on the 4x100m together.
Carlos nearly always led coming out of the turn in a 200m race, so I'd stick him on the 1st leg
and everybody knows about Tommie's 'Tommie-Jets' in the home straight of a 200m and a 400m race.
Where he'd just explode ooff of the turn, and eat up the track beneath him.
However it would cause a headache deciding whether to put him or 2nd or Anchor leg(4th).
He could hold top speed for quite some time, and would be suited for the 2nd leg, as it's the longest leg,and as the other guys were tire-ing, he would reach top speed and cruise past everyone. And if you put Tommie on the Anchor he run a steady bend, and about 40-50m down the home staright he would just explode and carry the baton home in front.
Which leg to choose???

[Guest]

2 issues here:

1. Smith and Carlos being sent home is a moot point. Neither one was slated to run on either relay team.

2. It is a long way from 2:56.16 to 2:54.20, 1.96 seconds to be precise. I do not have the 4 splits in front of me that Evans, Freeman, James, and Matthews ran, but the argument that Tommie Smith running instead of presumably Freeman or Matthews, plus Lee Evans trying harder and running faster if was not alone on the anchor, would have been a 1.96 second difference, just does not hold up, IMHO. Smith on the anchor would have the same disincentive that Evans had, and do you realize how much track gets eaten up in 1.96 seconds in a 2:56 1600m relay ? At a 44 second pace, that's 17.8 meters, almost 20 yards ! No way.

[gh]

>2 issues here:

1. Smith and Carlos being sent
>home is a moot point. Neither one was slated to
>run on either relay team.>>


That was my first reaction too, but being cautious I looked at the T&FN Oly Preview. Carlos was first alternate in the 4x1 (Questad the second), Smith the first in the 4x4. I find no clue as to whether or not they were actually in line to take one of the spots at the Games, but they were definitely at least in the queue.

[Guest]

thanks, Gary, I did not know/remember that either of them were alternates. But what I do remember is that when the whole fracas of their ouster took place, there never was any mention whatsoever about any impact upon either relay team.

And I still want someone to convince me that Tommie Smith would have benn 19 1/2 yards faster than Ron Freeman or Vince Matthews.

[Guest]

and 2 more quickies:

Garry, I left an r out, sorry.

Back then I do not believe, actually I am almost positive, that you could not substitute runners in the relay heats. The 4 you run the first heat with, that's it going onward. So the selected 4 in each relay, I think, were very solid.

[Guest]

Youre right however, it would have taken until 1993 to break their record. Matthews led-of with a 45:0/ Freeman 43:2/ James 43:7 and Evans 44.1.
I believe Evans may have been capable of at least a 44.2 lead-off leg with Robrert Asati of Kenya giving him a little push. Then if Freeman and James stay consistent Tommie Smith at anchor, its around 2:54:80! In the Mexico City altitude, Smith may have ran at least a 43.5 split.
44.2
43.2
43.9
43.5 = 2.54.8!
More food for thought, if Danny Everett doesn't pull up lame or MJ doesnt get food poisoning in Barcelona in 92 then how fast?
Peace
JP

[Guest]

There's always one issue in these things: after the first leg, any record-setting relay is engaged in a time trial as there is no one near them. Running 43.5 is difficult under any circumstances, but if it's not "necessary" it could be even harder.

[Guest]

well, we are all having fun with all this conjecturing, and that's good enough for me !

[Guest]

Please put an astericks next to all those splits...they were at altitude!

[Russ7291]

Tommy Smith actually was on a world record 1600 relay team in 1966. Looking at the T&FN rankings for that year, I believe it was Bob Frey, Theron Lewis, Lee Evans, and Smith. I think Smith ran maybe a 44.5. This must have been at the USA British Commonwealth Meet. I'm trying to find the time...might have been the first under 3:00.

[gh]

Yes, the first-ever sub-3:00, 2:59.6. Smith ran 43.8 on the third leg. It was the fastest split ever, and maybe the first sub-44.

Will have to research that, as well as the first sub-45, which I believe was also a third-leg carry, a 44.6 by Herb McKenley in the '52 Olympics.

[richardh]

If Smith had run in the 4*400 it's likely he would have replaced Matthews. Smith (on his 19.83WR form earlier in the week would have run 43.6 on the opening leg - altitude aids by 0.6 or 0.7, and he ran 44.5 in 1967 and was in peak form in October 68 allowing another 0.3, thus 43.6), with Freeman and James running 43.2 and 43.9, with Evans running 43.4 on the anchor at full tilt - not 2:54.0....but 2:54.1

[gh]

>There's always one issue in these things: after
>the first leg, any record-setting relay is
>engaged in a time trial as there is no one near
>them. Running 43.5 is difficult under any
>circumstances, but if it's not "necessary" it
>could be even harder.>>

Always remember not to use the word always. In the '52 Olympic race alluded to above, the WR was 3:08.2 when the race began. Germany ran 3:06.6 and got 3rd.

In what still rates as perhaps the greatest 4x4 ever, Jamaica beats U.S. for gold, 3:03.9 to 3:04.0 with the the 400 gold medalist (Rhoden) holding off the 800 gold medalist (Whitfield).

Jamaica was down by 0.1 after the first leg and by a monstrous 1.6 after two legs.

[Guest]

Thanks for the info on the 1952 OLY FInals. Jamaica has always had the horses.

[dj]

I remembered a 4x1 team with Carlos and T.Smith on it beating the US OG team. Or at least I thought I did, so I looked it up. Annoying habit, that.

And there it is, in Vancouver, B.C., on September 28 '68, following the USFOT and before the Games.

US B beats US A, both in 39.1. The A team was the same foursome in the same order as at the Games: Greene, Pender, R.R. Smith and Hines. The B team was Charlie Mays (#3 long jumper), Larry Questad (#3 200), Carlos and T.Smith.

From the T&FN story: "Ronnie Ray tool the baton with a healthy lead over Carlos, but Carlos gobbled it up and Tomkmie beat Hines on the last leg."

The story also mentions that Smith won what must have been the easiest 45.2s in history, as he beat a distant second-placer, 47.7. Smith shut down in the last 35 yards, nearly walking across the finish. The story said he was trying to run his way onto the 4x4 team.

Oh, and an interesting tidbit from the T&FN preview edition. The OG team was going to run with the baton in the right hand. Greene starts in right hand; Pender takes with left, shifts to right; Smith takes with left, shifts to right; Hines takes with left, no shift. Curious.

Perhaps just a part of the evolution to the now common, right-left-right-left, albeit somewhat skewed in U.S. history for some 15 years by Carl Lewis's idiosyncracy of taking with the left and shifting to the right even though he anchored.

[Guest]

That's great info. I love this forum!
Peace
JP

[Guest]

I always thought the 64' US Olymoic team was the first team to break 3:00 in the 4X 400 meter relay. Didn't they run 2:59:6 with Henry Carr anchoring with a 44.8 split? I believe Larrabee, and U. Williams were on that team also, but I can't remember the 4th member.

[6 5.5hjsteve]

Ollan Cassell, and they ran a WR 3:00.7.

[Guest]

Thanks. I must be having illusions. Ollan Cassell is/ was the Editor of the great sports publication known as Track & Field News)?

[huh?]

>Thanks. I must be having illusions. Ollan
Cassell is/ was the Editor of the great sports
publication known as Track & Field News)?<

You must be kidding.

[6 5.5hjsteve]

I think jpreyor1 is asking a straight question and does not know who Ollan is, only that he's somehow connected with the sport.

Ollan was the Executive Director of USA Track & Field for many years, up to about 6 years ago. Prior to USATF's ( fomerly TAC ) creation about 1980, he was the head honcho at the AAU during most of the 70's.

[Guest]

Wasn't the first sub 3:00 at Pan Am Games in 1966?

[6 5.5hjsteve]

no, it was in 1966, at, I think, a "USA vs. World " meet that was put together at the last minute as the USSR pulled out of a scheduled dual meet in protest over US involvement in Viet Nam. I might be wrong on the meet but it was that same summer. Ryun ran his 3:51.3 at one of them.

The US team ran a virtually unopposed 2:59.6. Lee Evans, Tommie Smith, and 2 others I cannot remember right this instant. Might have been Bob Frey as one of them.... somebody help me here !

[Guest]

You must have missed the post by Russ7291 (above). He said the other member was Teron Lewis....

[Guest]

I mean Theron Lewis.

[6 5.5hjsteve]

oh heck, Lynn, I would have remembered Theron if I had taken a few minutes to think about it, but I was late to an appointment so I bailed out. At least I got Frey right.