Secretariat


Forum devoted to track & field items of an historical nature.

Re: Secretariat

Postby bambam » Sat May 07, 2005 8:01 pm

>One of the greatest horses of all time was Sham. The problem was he chose the
>same year as Secretariat to race.

Sham finished 2nd to Secretariat in the Derby and Preakness. In the Belmont, he tried to run with Secretariat and held on til the middle of the back stretch. He gave out from the effort, finished last, and never raced again.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby buckeye II » Sun May 08, 2005 5:20 am

Sham finished 2nd to Secretariat in
>the Derby and Preakness. In the Belmont, he tried to run with Secretariat and
>held on til the middle of the back stretch. He gave out from the effort,
>finished last, and never raced again.

In many years, Sham would have been a triple crown contender. Secretariet reduced a horse of that magnitude to jogging in! Amazing.
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Man O'War

Postby Rufus Cookie » Sun May 08, 2005 5:38 am

In the sixteen months between June 1919 and October 1920, Man o' War rewrote the record books. His victories included the Keene Memorial Stakes, Youthful Stakes, Hudson Stakes, Tremont Stakes, United States Hotel Stakes, Grand Union Hotel Stakes, Hopeful Stakes, Belmont Futurity, Preakness Stakes, Withers Stakes, Belmont Stakes, Stuyvesant Handicap, Dwyer Stakes, Miller Stakes, Travers Stakes, Lawrence Realization Stakes, Jockey Club (now the Gold Cup) Stakes, Potomac Handicap and Kenilworth Park Gold Cup.

He was odds-on in all 21 of his races -- three times being quoted by bookmakers at 1-100. He won the Belmont Stakes by 20 lengths and the Lawrence Realization by 100 lengths. He beat the best horses of his time, including John P. Grier and Triple Crown winner Sir Barton.

Man o' War's time records included:

New World Record, Dwyer Stakes, 1 1/8 miles
New World Record, Belmont Stakes, 1 3/8 miles
New World Record, Lawrence Realization, 1 5/8 miles
New American Record, Jockey Club Stakes, 1 1/2 miles
New American Record, Withers Stakes, 1 mile
New Track Record, Kenilworth Park Gold Cup, 1 1/4 miles
New Track Record, Potomac Handicap, 1 1/16 miles
Equaled Track Record, Travers Stakes, 1 1/4 miles
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Re: Man O'War

Postby MJD » Mon May 09, 2005 4:10 am

Listening to a talk show today and a host who basically is all Bills all the time asked a horse type reporter to put the Derby upset on the week-end into some kind of perspective he could relate to. What would be the track(or field) comparison?
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Re: Man O'War

Postby Rufus Cookie » Mon May 09, 2005 4:41 am

Ralph Doubell winning the 800m in mexico city 68?
Last edited by Rufus Cookie on Mon May 09, 2005 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Man O'War

Postby wineturtle » Mon May 09, 2005 4:54 am

>Listening to a talk show today and a host who basically is all Bills all the
>time asked a horse type reporter to put the Derby upset on the week-end into
>some kind of perspective he could relate to. What would be the track(or field)
>comparison?

Billy Mills '64 comes to mind.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby DrJay » Tue May 10, 2005 1:32 pm

The stalls all had one or more gold plates on the door, with the names of the current and past residents of that particular stall. The first one is empty, plexiglass over the open upper part of the door. The names on that door were four, two greats that I don't recall just now, but also Bold Ruler and Secretariat. The stallion manager said somewhat whistfully, "Well, we hope...someday....to have another horse worthy of that stall."

Unbridled and Easy Goer were the other two.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby mrbowie » Wed May 11, 2005 7:20 pm

>mrbowie, Please elaborate and enlighten us prior to today's Derby. What year?
>What happened? What things should I look for to enjoy today's race even more
>than usual?

I ran a horse named Captain Bodgit in 1997 and he got beat a head by Silver Charm, whose rider Gary Stevens gradually steered his mount to the right to take our colt's path and force our rider Alex Solis to check our colt just enough to lose the race because of a loss of momentum.

Good riders are like good chess players--they think a few moves in advance. Stevens out-rode Solis.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby mrbowie » Wed May 11, 2005 7:22 pm

>
Sham finished 2nd to Secretariat in
>the Derby and Preakness. In the
>Belmont, he tried to run with Secretariat and
>held on til the middle of the
>back stretch. He gave out from the effort,
>finished last, and never raced
>again.

In many years, Sham would have been a triple crown contender.
>Secretariet reduced a horse of that magnitude to jogging in! Amazing.


The reason we know for sure how great Secretariat was is that he raced against Sham. I covered racing for years for industry trades in horse racing and I thought Sham was the best 3yo I had ever seen in California.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby buckeye II » Thu May 12, 2005 7:57 am

Good riders are like good chess players--they think a few moves in
>advance. Stevens out-rode Solis.

mrbowie,

What did you think of Mike Smith's ride on Giacomo? I thought the overhead shot of his splitting the field and finding running room was spectacular. I also thought he was quite lucky that the path opened for him. What is your analysis?
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Re: Secretariat

Postby wynton » Thu May 12, 2005 5:02 pm

Thanks for the mention of horse racing. Growing up near Louisville, I've had a soft spot for these athletes all my life. I've seen Secretariat's Belmont performance countless times, and it always gives me chills. What an athlete! I would also echo the sentiments for Sham. While watching these old replays, I've often remarked, "Poor Sham"--he's Joe Frazier to Secretariat's Ali.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby twittering debutante » Thu May 12, 2005 6:54 pm

I believe Secretariat won the Belmont the same afternoon Craig Virgin ran 8:40.9 HSR at Mt. Prospect IPI.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby mrbowie » Thu May 12, 2005 7:02 pm

>I believe Secretariat won the Belmont the same afternoon Craig Virgin ran
>8:40.9 HSR at Mt. Prospect IPI.

Well, that certainly puts Secretariat's feat in perspective.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby mrbowie » Thu May 12, 2005 7:03 pm

>
Good riders are like good chess players--they think a few moves in
>advance.
>Stevens out-rode Solis.

mrbowie,

What did you think of Mike Smith's ride
>on Giacomo? I thought the overhead shot of his splitting the field and finding
>running room was spectacular. I also thought he was quite lucky that the path
>opened for him. What is your analysis?

On a "souped up" track (rolled, packed down, made hard), all of the horses that showed speed died, setting it up for the closers. The winner had a dream run through.

Wouldn't surprise me to see him never win another race of any kind, let alone a good one.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby twittering debutante » Thu May 12, 2005 7:26 pm

On a
>"souped up" track (rolled, packed down, made hard), all of the horses that
>showed speed died, setting it up for the closers. The winner had a dream run
>through.

No kidding ...........
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Re: Secretariat

Postby eldrick » Thu May 12, 2005 11:00 pm

>
On a
>"souped up" track (rolled, packed down, made hard), all of the
>horses that
>showed speed died, setting it up for the closers. The winner had
>a dream run
>through.

No kidding ...........<


the winner ran 2'02 ?

under best track conditions possible

shows the merit of secretariat's 1'59.4


may i also add that when he won the preakness, the main timing system broke down & he was credited with what seemed a wrong back-up time

HT taken at the time showed he had run significantly faster than the course record, but the officials wouldn't accept it

he was in fact robbed of holding the time records for all 3 triple crown races

i'll try & dig up that story ( but someone could also double-check)
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Re: Secretariat

Postby DrJay » Fri May 13, 2005 9:27 am

I think the hand time was still a bit slower than the Preakness record, saw that on a site I found last week. I'll try to find it again.

Here it is:

http://www.chef-de-race.com/articles/fatigue.htm

At 5:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, in Maryland on a Saturday in May, a chestnut colt of imposing physical and historical stature broke from the gate and leisurely settled in behind the other horses racing to the clubhouse turn. Within a few seconds, the colt would initiate a move of such spectacular proportions that he would circle the entire field and take command entering the backstretch, to be hand-ridden the rest of the way to an overwhelming victory. In one of racing’s most memorable displays of power and grace, Secretariat had won the second leg of the Triple Crown on his march toward immortality. A malfunctioning teletimer clicked off 1:55 for the mile and three—sixteenths, one second slower than Canonero II’s mark set two years earlier. An immediate controversy arose as two Daily Racing Form clockers had separately timed the race one and three-fifths seconds faster. A debate followed, and evidence was presented in an attempt to resolve the dispute. Two days after the race it was learned that the official track clocker had timed the race manually, catching Secretariat under the wire in 1:54.2, still over the track mark. Pimlico officials compromised and lowered the time to that recorded by the track clocker. To this day, the result chart of the race lists the track time as official but includes, parenthetically, the faster Daily Racing Form time.
Last edited by DrJay on Fri May 13, 2005 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby bambam » Fri May 13, 2005 12:31 pm

The rest of that article Dr. Jay referenced is pretty cool and convincing evidence that Secretariat was at least capable of the record-breaking Preakness time.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby mrbowie » Fri May 13, 2005 2:23 pm

Final time in horse racing is not as important as it is in track, especially overseas.

In horse racing, track conditions make for records, not necessarily the horses.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby eldrick » Fri May 13, 2005 3:48 pm

>Final time in horse racing is not as important as it is in track, especially
>overseas.

In horse racing, track conditions make for records, not
>necessarily the horses.<


flat,wide-ish turn tracks under same ground conditions,with the horse running "flat-out" "gun-to-tape", the estimates are valid


do those conditions apply to all the '73 races ?
Last edited by eldrick on Fri May 13, 2005 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby tandfman » Wed May 01, 2013 10:54 am

mrbowie wrote:It is 98 percent horse and 2 percent rider.

So maybe we don't need riders at all?

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 22244.html
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Re: Secretariat

Postby Marlow » Wed May 01, 2013 11:14 am

tandfman wrote:
mrbowie wrote:It is 98 percent horse and 2 percent rider.

So maybe we don't need riders at all?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 22244.html

60 minutes did a profile on this lady. Certainly opened my eyes to the value of a great jockey over a good jockey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_Napravnik
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Re: Secretariat

Postby DrJay » Wed May 01, 2013 1:58 pm

This coming Sunday is the 40th anniversary of Secretariat's Derby win.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby bambam » Wed May 01, 2013 4:31 pm

DrJay wrote:This coming Sunday is the 40th anniversary of Secretariat's Derby win.


Secretariat's Belmont win convinced me he was almost a different life form.

Reading something the other day, though, about Ruffian, the filly who died in the match race against Foolish Pleasure (or was put down after the race). The trainer of Secretariat, Lucien Laurin, actually said of her that she might have been better than Secretariat. Now that's high praise.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby runforlife » Thu May 02, 2013 3:30 pm

eldrick wrote:his belmont record does a little more than just "still stand"

it is still the WR for 1 1/2 miles on dirt !!!


Think what he could have done on an all weather track!!
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Re: Secretariat

Postby bambam » Thu May 02, 2013 6:39 pm

runforlife wrote:
eldrick wrote:his belmont record does a little more than just "still stand"

it is still the WR for 1 1/2 miles on dirt !!!


Think what he could have done on an all weather track!!


But could he have beaten Bob Hayes???
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Re: Secretariat

Postby nunusguy » Sat May 04, 2013 9:45 am

SQUACKEE wrote:no body beats secretariat, not even spiderman on board seabiscuit.
when there is another horse of this talent we will know it.

But Secretariat was indeed beaten, atleast once I believe ?
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Re: Secretariat

Postby kuha » Sat May 04, 2013 9:55 am

The 73 Belmont remains, by far, my favorite and most riveting non-track sporting event ever. Stunning and transcendent.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby bambam » Sat May 04, 2013 10:08 am

nunusguy wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:no body beats secretariat, not even spiderman on board seabiscuit.
when there is another horse of this talent we will know it.

But Secretariat was indeed beaten, atleast once I believe ?


Actually, I think he had 4 losses in his career. He lost the Wood Memorial, shortly before the Derby, a big Derby-prep race, but it turned out he had an infected tooth and was off his game a bit and hadn't eaten well that week.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby user4 » Sat May 04, 2013 10:43 am

wynton wrote:Thanks for the mention of horse racing. Growing up near Louisville, I've had a soft spot for these athletes all my life. I've seen Secretariat's Belmont performance countless times, and it always gives me chills. What an athlete! I would also echo the sentiments for Sham. While watching these old replays, I've often remarked, "Poor Sham"--he's Joe Frazier to Secretariat's Ali.


Except that Frazier beat Ali fair n square and did it at a lighter weight and 5 inches shorter than Ali, ...As great as Sham was did he ever beat an uninjured Secretariat ?
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Re: Secretariat

Postby JumboElliott » Tue May 07, 2013 3:34 am

I believe that Secretariat and Sham had the same damsire.
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Re: Secretariat

Postby DrJay » Tue May 07, 2013 6:56 pm

JumboElliott wrote:I believe that Secretariat and Sham had the same damsire.


Good call. It was Princequillo.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/secretariat

http://www.pedigreequery.com/sham

OK, how'd they come up with "Miss Disco" for Bold Ruler's dam's name back in 1944? I mean, Barry, Robin, and Maurice Gibb weren't even born until 1946 and 1949.
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