Bikila vs Gebrselassie

[Guest]

Who's the greatest African distance runner of all-time? With apologies to Keino, Aouita, El Guerrouj, etc. I believe this answer comes down to Abebe Bikila and Haile Gebrselassie. What do you think?

[Guest]

Any debate about the best African distance runner of all time would have to carefully consider Henry Rono and Mirutus Yifter as strong contenders in addition the the gentlemen you have mentioned.

[197hjsteve]

to a great extent you are comparing an apple with an orange as Bikela was I believe exclusively a marathoner, whereas Geb is a 5 & 10 guy with a dabble in the marathon.

[Guest]

Aouita has to be considered in this. He has a gold in the 5k - and a bronze in the 800! No runner, from anywhere, has had his range, and all before the days when EPO took hold in running.

[Guest]

The IOC banned EPO way back in 1990, indicating that the use/abuse well established at that point. The public only learns about "new" drugs until years after they've been popular with the athletes.

[Guest]

Here's how I see the debate about "greatest African runner":

Are any considered the greatest competitor in their event(s)? If so, which has the strongest case?

Gebreselassie may be the greatest 5k/10k man of all time, but Emil Zatopek and Paavo Nurmi have claims just as strong if not stronger. Yifter's accomplishments don't quite trump any of the three named above. Aouita may very well be the greatest 5k man of all time, but as a 1500 guy he wasn't even the best of his era. Kiptanui may be the greatest steepler of all time, but it's not a slam-dunk. Keino was a great 1500 runner and real good as a bunch of other things, but can't really be considered the greatest in any of them. Rono was tremendously dominant for a short period. Like Keino, both Rono and Aouita showed tremendous range, but so did Nurmi.

While Abebe Bikila only competed in the marathon, I see no one whose accomplishments as a marathoner are comparable. He won 11 of the 13 marathons he started (with one defeat and one DNF). He won two Olympic marathons, both with world-record times. No one else combines consistency, big wins, and WRs like Bikila. I'd say he's the greatest African runner ever, and only Morceli give him a push.

[Guest]

You make a compelling case, I believe I'd have to concur.

Rono may lay claim to greatest period of distance runnering with his numerous WR's in multiple distances over a few week period in 1977 or 78 (I believe) but his entire career doesn't match up with several of the others.

But it may be too early to truely judge Gebrselassie for this analysis. Would a WR and/or Olympic Gold at the Marathon for Gebrselassie change the answer?

But Bikila's marathoning career truely stands alone as you point out.

[Guest]

How much will the length of Geb's WR's affect his career ranking? If his wr's are still standing in 5, 10, 15 years...will he be ranked even higher?

[gh]

On my personal scale of things I "discount" all marathoning before the '70s (or even '80s) (see, us old farts don't always think the ancient days were the best!).

Why? Simply because marathons were very obscure bits of competition, contested more by people who were a little strange (and I say that in all kindness) rather than by the incredible athletic specimins we see today. There was just little or no incentive to be a marathoner, so those who excelled didn't really represent the pinnacle of distance talent as they do today.

Bikila was incredible in his day, but his feats pale with those of Geb.

[Guest]

'those who excelled didn't really represent the pinnacle of distance talent as they do today.'
Not sure I totally agree with that comment. Barry Magee of NZ who finished 3rd behind Bikila in Rome
came close to breaking the 5000 WR the following year and also was highly ranked at 10k also. Maybe Bikila (and Magee) were ahead of their time in choosing the marathon while being world class runners overall.

[Guest]

And as Pre could have attested to, Shorter was very difficult to handle at 5k and 10k while being a Marathoner. Shorter was consitantly a top 10 world ranked 10k runner from 1970 to 1974.

Looking at the 60's and early 70's there seems to be a decent amount of overlap at 10k and the Marathon on the World Rankings list, at least as much or even more than today. Wolde, Adcocks, Shorter, etc.

[Guest]

>On my personal scale of things I "discount" all
>marathoning before the '70s (or even '80s) (see,
>us old farts don't always think the ancient days
>were the best!).

Why? Simply because marathons
>were very obscure bits of competition, contested
>more by people who were a little strange (and I
>say that in all kindness) rather than by the
>incredible athletic specimins we see today.

So athletes such as Zatopek and Mimoun don't count? Granted, they ran them infrequently, but they were definitely "incredible athletic specimens". Even Johnny Kelley was the fastest high school miler in the nation as a senior, and he didn't have a chance against guys like Peters or Karvonen. And if you say that Bikila was not an incredible athletic specimen . . .

[Guest]

"Why? Simply because marathons were very obscure bits of competition, contested more by people who were a little strange (and I say that in all kindness) rather than by the incredible athletic specimins we see today. There was just little or no incentive to be a marathoner, so those who excelled didn't really represent the pinnacle of distance talent as they do today."

I beg to differ: See the attached partial list of the top quality 10-k and 5-K guys who were also top marathons in the 50's, 60's and early 70's: Marathoner listed followed by 10k & 5K World Rankings and yrs.

Frank Shorter
10-K Rankings: 70-2, 72-5, 74-5, 75-2
5-K Rankings: 75-10

Ron Hill
10-K Ranking: 69-6, 68-9, 64-8, 63-2

Abebe Bikila
10-K Raning: 62-9

M. Wolde
10-K Ranking: 68-3, 64-4, 62-7

Basil Heatley
10-K Ranking: 63-4, 61-4

Barry Magee
10-K Ranking: 61-1
5-K Ranking: 61-2

Emil Zatopek
10-K Ranking: 55-4, 48 thru 54 #1
5-K Ranking: 54-3, 52&53-1, 51-2, 47 thru 50 #1

"those who excelled didn't really represent the pinnacle of distance talent as they do today".

???

In fact just like today, back in the 60's you were likely to run up against (1 or 2) accomplished 10k or even 5k guy in most major marathons.

Only 2 of the 2002 top 10 marathoners had ever been ranked at the 10k.

In 2001 only 1 of the top 10 ranked marathons had ever been ranked at the 10-K.

Doesn't look like much has changed in the past 50 years. In marathons you mainly run up against marathon specialists with an occasional guy with impressive 10k/5k credentials.

Interesting note through: Looking back in time, Zatopek may be the most impressive distance runner ever (anywhere), at least to this point. 7 #1 rankings in the 10k, 5 #1's in the 5k and 1 #1 in the marathon, plus that incredibale three Olympic Gold performance in 1952 (5k, 10k and Marathon).

[Guest]

>The IOC banned EPO way back in 1990, indicating
>that the use/abuse well established at that
>point. The public only learns about "new" drugs
>until years after they've been popular with the
>athletes.

The IOC banned it because of the problems in cycling. It was in use in track by 87 because the parties that had been leading the way in EPO use in cycling fled the sport under the heat of an investigation and clean up by cycling's governing body. One of the guys who bailed from cycling was Dr. Gabrielle Rosa, who began to work with Kenyans, and their numbers in terms of world class runners exploded within months of Dr. Rosa's work with them. Drug use in E. Africa. By some, no doubt about it. Think Chepchumba, and the stories runners on the circuit tell about the IAAF looking the other way, and letting some guilty Africans go because they are "so poor" and supporting "so many" in their "extended families".

[Guest]

<The IOC banned it
>because of the problems in cycling. It was in
>use in track by 87 because the parties that had
>been leading the way in EPO use in cycling fled
>the sport under the heat of an investigation and
>clean up by cycling's governing body. One of the
>guys who bailed from cycling was Dr. Gabrielle
>Rosa, who began to work with Kenyans, and their
>numbers in terms of world class runners exploded
>within months of Dr. Rosa's work with them. Drug
>use in E. Africa. By some, no doubt about it.
>Think Chepchumba, and the stories runners on the
>circuit tell about the IAAF looking the other
>way, and letting some guilty Africans go because
>they are "so poor" and supporting "so many"
>in their "extended families". >>

Allow me to sneak in a response before the moderators yank this incredibly full of malicious gossip post.

Please cite a meaningful source for any of your "facts" that isn't some anonymous poster has spewed on one of the boards that tolerates that kind of crap. Even better, please have one of your mythical "runners on the circuit" allow you to quote him.

[Guest]

><The IOC banned it
>because of the problems in
>cycling. It was in
>use in track by 87 because
>the parties that had
>been leading the way in
>EPO use in cycling fled
>the sport under the
>heat of an investigation and
>clean up by
>cycling's governing body. One of the
>guys who
>bailed from cycling was Dr. Gabrielle
>Rosa, who
>began to work with Kenyans, and their
>numbers
>in terms of world class runners exploded
>within
>months of Dr. Rosa's work with them. Drug
>use
>in E. Africa. By some, no doubt about
>it.
>Think Chepchumba, and the stories runners
>on the
>circuit tell about the IAAF looking the
>other
>way, and letting some guilty Africans go
>because
>they are "so poor" and supporting
>"so many"
>in their "extended families".
>>>

Allow me to sneak in a response before the
>moderators yank this incredibly full of
>malicious gossip post.

Please cite a
>meaningful source for any of your "facts" that
>isn't some anonymous poster has spewed on one of
>the boards that tolerates that kind of crap.
>Even better, please have one of your mythical
>"runners on the circuit" allow you to quote
>him.

I believe it. I'd bet any runner that speaks up would get the Bauman treatment. You know, end up testing positive, and his non-athlete wife testing positive also. Oh wait, the drugs were transferred by sex, that's it.

Actually, it's well known Rosa ran from cycling when there was a crackdown. His sons are probably taking a cue from their dear ol' dad: http://www.nationaudio.com/News/DailyNa ... rts24.html

So yes, Virginia, it does appear that some Kenyans are using gear. And we were told they'd never even look at an aspirin ...

[Guest]

>I believe it. I'd bet any runner that speaks up
>would get the Bauman treatment. You know, end
>up testing positive, and his non-athlete wife
>testing positive also..>>

Ludlum should hire you as a source for conspiracy-theory plots! You're trying to tell us that Baumann complained about others using drugs, so the "distance cartel" set him up so he'd test positive? And that his wife also tested positive?

Anybody on the board ever hear anything about his wife in all this? I don't recall ever reading it anywhere.

[Guest]

Geez,

And people wonder whats wrong with American Distance Running. They all sit around mentally beat because they believe that everyone else is on EPO or blood doping or was born at altitude or knows the "great secret" or is better genetically designed, or is from Africa.

B.S. Just lace them up and get your butt off the couch, train and race with passion. Don't get caught up in the peripherals.

From my experience I've seen a tough, hard working clean distance runner with a big heart (spirit)and a purpose that takes races personally will beat a dirty athlete regardless of what he is taking. Alot more of distance running and racing is mental than many believe.

I just hate when I hear other athletes use excuses like, well he's dirty or he was born in the Rift valley. To me its just a load a crock designed to make them feel better about losing and that just breads more losses.

Hate to lose. Take it personally when someone passes you in a race. Run with fire, thats the best performance enhancing substance you can have.

I'll get off my soap box now.
- Ultrarunner

[Guest]

>>I believe it. I'd bet any runner that speaks
>up
>would get the Bauman treatment. You know,
>end
>up testing positive, and his non-athlete
>wife
>testing positive also..>>

Ludlum should
>hire you as a source for conspiracy-theory plots!
>You're trying to tell us that Baumann complained
>about others using drugs, so the "distance
>cartel" set him up so he'd test positive? And
>that his wife also tested positive?

Anybody on
>the board ever hear anything about his wife in
>all this? I don't recall ever reading it
>anywhere.

When Bauman tested positive, he said he couldn't figure out why. It turned out that his wife tested positive also. Turned out the toothpaste Bauman had been using had apparently been spiked. Is it all true? Well, he and his wife did test positive, and he was very outspoken regarding the IAAF being lax in testing for drugs, and letting many athletes get off with an under the table warning and slap of the wrist behind closed doors. Making funny comments does nothing to counter any of this. The Chepchumba story is interesting because of Rosa and his sons denying for years that any Kenyan would use drugs, then boom, here we are. We've also seen Samson Kitur popped, Ngugi using strange reasoning to avoid tests, etc. Are all Africans doped? Nah. Are any Africans doped? To the gills, no doubt.

[Guest]

From
>my experience I've seen a tough, hard working
>clean distance runner with a big heart
>(spirit)and a purpose that takes races
>personally will beat a dirty athlete regardless
>of what he is taking. Alot more of distance
>running and racing is mental than many
>believe.

Two athletes, same capabilities, same desire, same sense of purpose. One is doped. The doped athlete will beat the clean athlete. Wish it weren't true, but all things being equal, the guy using pharmacological agents will gain an edge.

[Guest]

>When Bauman tested positive,
>he said he couldn't figure out why. It turned
>out that his wife tested positive also. Turned
>out the toothpaste Bauman had been using had
>apparently been spiked. Is it all true? Well,
>he and his wife did test positive....>>

Again, I ask you: show me a believable source for this story. (That his wife tested positive) I've never seen this anywhere before, and I'm very curious as to what you're using as your source. Please enlighten us.

[Guest]

>>When Bauman tested positive,
>he said he
>couldn't figure out why. It turned
>out that
>his wife tested positive also. Turned
>out the
>toothpaste Bauman had been using had
>apparently
>been spiked. Is it all true? Well,
>he and his
>wife did test positive....>>

Again, I ask you:
>show me a believable source for this story. (That
>his wife tested positive) I've never seen this
>anywhere before, and I'm very curious as to what
>you're using as your source. Please enlighten us.

I've never seen that story either. However, if it is true it makes me wonder why his wife was tested in the first place. At the time I thought it was the most outrageous and ridiculous excuse ever. Now it makes more sense though. I'm trying not to break the house rules "on that subject" but hypothetically how imaginative is that?

"OK, give the Fraulien some of "that stuff" then arrange to have her tested. She'll be positive then we can blame some product we both use." But toothpaste?!!! Who the hell has access to your toothpaste to spike it?

Frankly, regarding "that subject", I don't care anymore. I'm totally enjoying the Tour de France (except for the guy who does the post-race stuff and calls it the Tour Day France)yet still assume they're all juiced on whatever followed EPO.

[Guest]

I've never seen that story
>either. However, if it is true it makes me
>wonder why his wife was tested in the first
>place. At the time I thought it was the most
>outrageous and ridiculous excuse ever. Now it
>makes more sense though. I'm trying not to break
>the house rules "on that subject" but
>hypothetically how imaginative is that?

Frankly, regarding "that subject", I
>don't care anymore. I'm totally enjoying the
>Tour de France (except for the guy who does the
>post-race stuff and calls it the Tour Day
>France)yet still assume they're all juiced on
>whatever followed EPO.

I remember the story, it was even on the IAAF website, and the UK sites as well. Strange situation. I believe IAAF officials decided to test Bauman's wife after hearing his story. A lot of things were tested, the toothpaste was just one item. Strange, but it did turn up an anabolic. The wife did test positive. Bizarre. Bauman was just an "old" athlete like Linford Christie when he was hung out to dry, among others. The IAAF felt safe going after the Over The Hill Gang, presenting the image of going after offenders, while not really going after athletes currently making an impact, drawing crowds, or enjoying huge sponsorship contracts.

I'm with you. I just assume all the riders are juiced on something. Same with track. I just assume the Africans are juiced - simply because their location (training several months in Africa) gives them a window and opportunity to load up without too much worrying about a spot tester showing up at the front door as they can do most other places. Sounds crummy, but it lets me sit back and enjoy the races on one level, just like enjoying the Tour.

[Guest]

>>I remember
>the story, it was even on the IAAF website, and
>the UK sites as well. Strange situation. I
>believe IAAF officials decided to test Bauman's
>wife after hearing his story. A lot of things
>were tested, the toothpaste was just one item.
>Strange, but it did turn up an anabolic. The
>wife did test positive. >>

Aha! If that's where it was, then I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding an URL directing us to the story. Please do so. Don't keep giving us this personal-remembrance crap. It's like a testimonial for hair-restorer; don't mean shit.

[Guest]

>ISounds crummy, but it lets
>me sit back and enjoy the races on one level,
>just like enjoying the Tour.


I'm not sure what to make of it. The Tour tests athletes on a daily basis, so only fools would assume they could use detectable drugs throughout and get away with it. They also don't need drug evidence; red blood cell counts above a certain level will get a DQ as well. This happened to the overall leader in the middle of the Tour a few years back (Jan Ullrich, if memory serves me), which shows they're not afraid to go after the big boys. I seriously doubt the French would cut an American (Armstrong) any slack. It seems impossible that such gladiators would avoid drugs, but it at least appears that the Tour organizers take drug testing seriously (something few of us believe about USATF or the IAAF).

I think professional cyclists are insane. They generally race 25 out of every 30 days for six months or more. They come within inches of massive mountain dropoffs while descending at upwards of 50 mph. Broken hips are common. It's got to be an incredibly hard way to make a living.

[Guest]

>>>I remember
>the story, it was even on the IAAF
>website, and
>the UK sites as well. Strange
>situation. I
>believe IAAF officials decided to
>test Bauman's
>wife after hearing his story. A
>lot of things
>were tested, the toothpaste was
>just one item.
>Strange, but it did turn up an
>anabolic. The
>wife did test positive.
>>>

Aha! If that's where it was, then I'm sure
>you'll have no trouble finding an URL directing
>us to the story. Please do so. Don't keep giving
>us this personal-remembrance crap. It's like a
>testimonial for hair-restorer; don't mean shit.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/athlet ... hpaste_ap/

Well, to quiet both of you:

Here's one of hundreds of URL's you get when you go to dogpile.com. I guess the laziness, or fearful, politically correct attitudes of those that think all those nice Africans are clean and everyone else dirty will need to find new rationalizations. Type in Chepchumba or Rosa EPO and you get some interesting hits too.

[Guest]

>>ISounds crummy, but it lets
>me sit back and
>enjoy the races on one level,
>just like
>enjoying the Tour.


I'm not sure what to
>make of it. The Tour tests athletes on a daily
>basis, so only fools would assume they could use
>detectable drugs throughout and get away with it.
>They also don't need drug evidence; red blood
>cell counts above a certain level will get a DQ
>as well. This happened to the overall leader in
>the middle of the Tour a few years back (Jan
>Ullrich, if memory serves me), which shows
>they're not afraid to go after the big boys. I
>seriously doubt the French would cut an American
>(Armstrong) any slack. It seems impossible that
>such gladiators would avoid drugs, but it at
>least appears that the Tour organizers take drug
>testing seriously (something few of us believe
>about USATF or the IAAF).

I think
>professional cyclists are insane. They
>generally race 25 out of every 30 days for six
>months or more. They come within inches of
>massive mountain dropoffs while descending at
>upwards of 50 mph. Broken hips are common.
>It's got to be an incredibly hard way to make a
>a living.

In season or during competition testing is a waste of time for the most part. The beneficial effects for athletes from most steroids or EPO last quite a while. If you can hide out off season, all the better. Guys caught on EPO in season must be thinking they can get a last second boost or something, or have bad coaches or doctors.
Cyclists are indeed nutty in some ways. Very ballsy the way they race down those steep drops.

[Guest]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/athleti
>s/news/1999/12/04/baumann_toothpaste_ap/
>

Well, to quiet both of you:

Here's one of
>hundreds of URL's you get when you go to
>dogpile.com. >>

How dumb are you? That's the same story that appeared in TFN and a million ohter places that nobody disputes. The question that has been raised multiple times now is (excuse my caps)

SHOW ME A SOURCE THAT SAYS HIS WIFE TESTED POSITIVE

[Powell]

Quote from the article:
'The toothpaste tube at Baumann's house was found to have 2,000 nanograms (one-billionth of a gram) of nandrolone. The runner's positive tests showed 24.0 and 23.2 nanograms'

So... he SWALLOWED a bit 1/100th of the tube, right?
There are a few reasons why I found the toothpaste story lame, but one that I haven't seen mentioned here yet is: you don't eat toothpaste - you spit it out after use. Thus, even assuming it really was spiked, the amount of the drug which would enter your system would be minuscule. Maybe someone can shed a light on how long nandrolone gets retained in the body ? My feeling is that, unless nandrolone can accumulate in the body for a long time, he would never get these levels by using toothpaste in the way most people use it :-p

[Guest]

>There are a few reasons why I found the toothpaste story lame, but one that I
haven't seen mentioned here yet is: you don't eat
toothpaste<

You don't?

[Powell]

It must be a cultural thing... or maybe German toothpaste tastes better :-p

[Guest]

How dumb are you? That's the same story
>that appeared in TFN and a million ohter places
>that nobody disputes. The question that has been
>raised multiple times now is (excuse my
>caps)

SHOW ME A SOURCE THAT SAYS HIS WIFE
>TESTED POSITIVE

Both of you should shut up. "Hey I Can Type" is lazy, and should have dropped in a few more URL's. I typed in the story to dogpile.com as stated, and came up with stories regarding Bauman and his wife - AND his daughter as it turns out, testing positive. Strange. As to Doubter, he's really dumb, as he could have gone to dogpile also, as the post stated. Maybe he already knew what he'd find, and has no interest in some of the dirty goings on in track and field. One guy is too interested in drug cases, and the other is scared to think that their might be "undercover" shenanigans or Africans that actually use drugs.

Here, go to : http://home.t-online.de/home/07234980117-0001/db05n.htm - the page has a lot of info, including Bauman's wife testing positive, etc. If you can't read German, go to : http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate to have the page translated (babelfish is a great service - the translations can be a bit goofy at times because its so "literal").

In fact, this page: http://home.t-online.de/home/07234980117-0001/db04e.htm has all kinds of info, pro and con on the Bauman incident, among others. Some of the links there are dead, but there is a trove of interesting info.

Knock off the arguments.

[Guest]

In season or during competition
>testing is a waste of time for the most part.
>The beneficial effects for athletes from most
>t steroids or EPO last quite a while.

I was under the impression that EPO is more a preformance-enhancing drug while steroids are training-enhancing drugs. Since EPO boosts red blood cell count, the effects of the drug have little training value as compared to the value they would have in competition. Also, I'd heard that EPO's effects last two weeks, tops, which is shorter than the duration of the Tour de France. Besides, the Tour's drug-testers have a cutoff for maximum RBC count anyway.

If I'm mistaken, I'd appreciate some enlightenment.

[gh]

NBC Guy wrote:

<Both of you should shut
>up. "Hey I Can Type" is lazy, and should have
>dropped in a few more URL's. I typed in the
>story to dogpile.com as stated, and came up with
>stories regarding Bauman and his wife - AND his
>daughter as it turns out, testing positive.
>Strange. As to Doubter, he's really dumb, as he
>could have gone to dogpile also, as the post
>stated. Maybe he already knew what he'd find,
>and has no interest in some of the dirty goings
>on in track and field. One guy is too
>interested in drug cases, and the other is
>scared to think that their might be
>"undercover" shenanigans or Africans that
>actually use drugs.

Here, go to :
>http://home.t-online.de/home/07234980117-0001/db0
>n.htm - the page has a lot of info, including
>Bauman's wife testing positive, etc. >>

Sorry, NBC Guy, but the onus is not on Doubter to go anywhere and find things. That rests with the person/people who make sensationalist unsubstantiated statements. Doubter was quite polite (well, at least to begin with, before he resorted to CAPS!) about asking the same question over and over. And to my mind, a relevant question, since I too can't recall ever seeing this in print. Where's the evidence that Baumann's wife and/or daughter also tested positive?

Far as I can see (my German doesn't extend much beyond ordering a beer), the URLs you have cited take us to Herr Baumann's homepage and offshoots thereof, which has about as much relevance as deciding OJ's guilt or innocence by going to his.

There may well be such stuff in existence on a site with credibility. If so, I'd love to see it too. Failing that, this whole bit of conversation faces removal from the Board.

gh
(E. Garry Hill/editor, T&FN)

[Guest]

How sad to see what started out as a discussion on two of the greatest Ethiopian runners degenerate into whining about drug use (look at the last 20 or so "messages"). There is of course no simple answer to Bikila vs. Geb, but as an old timer, my vote goes to Bikila.