Marathoners


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Marathoners

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 01, 2003 9:30 am

Is some of the problem the US is having fielding top marathoners (other than Khannouchi) related to mileage? It doesn't seem to me that the current US marathoners do the mileage work their predecesors did. Shorter was at 130 to 140 miles a week, Rodgers ran 120 - 130 miles a week. Both pretty much year round. Seems like the current crop of marathons are doing 90 - 110 miles a week and doing more intervals than tempo work. Doesn't make sence to me. I trained with a 2:11 Spainish marathoner and he said 90 - 110 a week was nice for 5k training. He did 140+ for marathon training.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:53 am

In one paragraph you explained what is wrong with US Marathoning.

Next question; what incentive is there for American's to train for the Marathon. I think a few million dollars in prize money would be incentive enough.

I can't name one top US Marathoners today. What is Ed Eyestone doing today?
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 01, 2003 12:13 pm

>In one paragraph you explained what is wrong with
>US Marathoning.

Next question; what incentive
>is there for American's to train for the
>Marathon. I think a few million dollars in prize
>money would be incentive enough.

I can't name
>one top US Marathoners today. What is Ed Eyestone
>doing today?

>In one paragraph you explained what is wrong with
>US Marathoning.

Next question; what incentive
>is there for American's to train for the
>Marathon. I think a few million dollars in prize
>money would be incentive enough.

(I can't name
>one top US Marathoners today. What is Ed Eyestone
>doing today?)
i believe eyestone is coaching byu, name a good us marathoner, khanouchi, culpeper and potentially meb and browne.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:31 pm

I don't think it's a problem with training, or what have you. I think it's simply an inability to attract good athletes to distance running in general and marathoning specifically.

Nearly all of our great (male) marathoners who grew up in the US either went to HS or college in New England. Shorter -- Yale. Burfoot, Galloway and Rodgers -- Wesleyan. Salazar, Kelley, DeMar and Michelson -- Mass HS. Most, if not all, were attracted to marathoning because of the hype surrounding the Boston race. When it faded from prominence as a major sporting event, so did the attraction of the marathon.

Most of the runners named above were very talented. Shorter, Galloway and Salazar excelled on the track before moving up to the marathon. Kelley was the fastest HS miler in the nation as a senior.

The only ones not named above that I figure you could call "great" are Moore, Kardong, Edelen, Plaatjes and Khannouchi. The latter two got interested in distance running long before they came to the USA, while Edelen blossomed overseas. Only Kardong and Moore don't fit the pattern.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 01, 2003 3:09 pm

>Most, if not all, were
attracted to marathoning because of the hype
surrounding the Boston race. When it faded from
prominence as a major sporting event, so did the
attraction of the marathon.<

I don't think the Boston Marathon has faded as a major sporting event. If anything, it's become a bigger media event. But what has changed is that these days all the top runners are Africans, with perhaps a Mexican thrown in every now and then. The young runners and potential runners growing up in New England today cannot possibly see a pack of Kenyans as role models. Yes, those guys do run faster. But American marathoning might be better off without them because they are unintentionlly convincing a generation of American-born runners that they cannot possibly succeed at this event.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 01, 2003 3:38 pm

I, too, think the Boston Marathon is one of the big ones. In fact, a lot of marathon runners, and especially old timers, think it is the big one next to the Olympics and the World Championships. Boston has a great history, is difficult and and those who gualify have reached a good standard of marathoning.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:05 pm

another view I disagree with you, i think boston needs to have as many top marathoners as possible, kids would not get discouraged by the success of the foreign runners, the great ones will use it as a motivating force to prove americans can win at boston, alberto salazar i read attributes some of his success to racing the likes of former world record holders samson kimombwa and henry rono in college. and in the second issue of track and field news that i bought in i believe 1978, bill rodgers was asked who he would most like to race and he said miruts yifter. and craig virgin won i believe 4 world cross country titles, so i am sure he would not have had a problem competing against anyone. i am sure when are young runners like ritzenhein and solinsky watch boston on tv, they dream of winning that race and ending the america drought, and someday it will happen.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Tue Jul 01, 2003 4:05 pm

another view I disagree with you, i think boston needs to have as many top marathoners as possible, kids would not get discouraged by the success of the foreign runners, the great ones will use it as a motivating force to prove americans can win at boston, alberto salazar i read attributes some of his success to racing the likes of former world record holders samson kimombwa and henry rono in college. and in the second issue of track and field news that i bought in i believe 1978, bill rodgers was asked who he would most like to race and he said miruts yifter. and craig virgin won i believe 4 world cross country titles, so i am sure he would not have had a problem competing against anyone. i am sure when are young runners like ritzenhein and solinsky watch boston on tv, they dream of winning that race and ending the america drought, and someday it will happen.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:51 am

>>Most, if not all, were
attracted to marathoning
>because of the hype
surrounding the Boston race.
>When it faded from
prominence as a major
>sporting event, so did the
attraction of the
>marathon.<

I don't think the Boston Marathon
>has faded as a major sporting event. If
>anything, it's become a bigger media event. But
>what has changed is that these days all the top
>runners are Africans, with perhaps a Mexican
>thrown in every now and then. The young runners
>and potential runners growing up in New England
>today cannot possibly see a pack of Kenyans as
>role models. Yes, those guys do run faster.
>But American marathoning might be better off
>f without them because they are unintentionlly
>convincing a generation of American-born runners
>that they cannot possibly succeed at this event.
>

Bull. Foreigners have dominated the Boston race since the second World War. The Japanese were once a dominant group there, and immediately following WWII they were hardly the most popular ethnic group in the USA. Why is it that they "cannot possibly see a pack of Kenyans as role models"? People are people! I don't like to throw in the race card, but whether it's intended or not it's a constant subtext when talking about Africans as "other" and "not like us", whatever "us" might be.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby bhagwan » Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:56 am

it seems as if fewer and fewer of the better americans attempt boston. a good performance there, or a win (rodgers '75, a 10 minute improvement) certainly could help a career. any american trying to get better should run boston.
bhagwan
 
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Marathoners

Postby KEL » Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:02 am

I believe a large part of the reason for the lack of success for marathoners is "supported training". "Supported Training" I would define as a combination of coaching experise, plus medical support, and especially financial support for the developing athletes. I'm sure there is the talent pool in the US, but we lack a realistic system for their development.
Recently there was an article in the Oregonian (the primary daily paper in Portland Oregon) describing a pilot program to develope international level marathoners. It is being directed by Alberto Salazar and presently involves 4 - 6 athletes living and sleeping in a pressurized house ( duplicates the atmospheric pressure at 11,000 ft. elevation). They are able to do there workouts at near sea level but are achieving the physiological adaptations of high elevation. I'm sure these athletes are being paid a "living wage" and that the progam has financial funding for a few years. Although not mentioned in the article, I would suspect the project is being funded by Nike.
There are some other pilot programs starting
that help talented T&F athletes develop independent of the traditional "college route".

Ken Largent
Bend, Oregon
KEL
 
Posts: 100
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Bend, Oregon

Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:36 am

>>Most, if not all, were
attracted to marathoning
>because of the hype
surrounding the Boston race.
>When it faded from
prominence as a major
>sporting event, so did the
attraction of the
>marathon.<

I don't think the Boston Marathon
>has faded as a major sporting event. If
>anything, it's become a bigger media event.

Why, because it is broadcast nationally on one of the big three every year? Oh wait, ESPN2 is NOT one of the big three. Sorry, the Boston marathon is on a par with billiards, the PBA, and strong-man competitions as a "media event". Maybe it's huge in New England, compared with other sporting events during that time of year, but at least in the rest of the country it's far behind the super bowl, world series, NCAA men's basketball, NBA playoffs, NHL playoffs, PGA, etc.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:41 am

>I believe a large part of the reason for the lack
>of success for marathoners is "supported
>training". "Supported Training" I would define
>as a combination of coaching experise, plus
>medical support, and especially financial support
>for the developing athletes. I'm sure there is
>the talent pool in the US, but we lack a
>realistic system for their development.
>
Recently there was an article in the Oregonian
>(the primary daily paper in Portland Oregon)
>describing a pilot program to develope
>international level marathoners. It is being
>directed by Alberto Salazar and presently
>involves 4 - 6 athletes living and sleeping in a
>pressurized house ( duplicates the atmospheric
>pressure at 11,000 ft. elevation). They are able
>to do there workouts at near sea level but are
>achieving the physiological adaptations of high
>elevation. I'm sure these athletes are being paid
>a "living wage" and that the progam has
>financial funding for a few years. Although not
>mentioned in the article, I would suspect the
>project is being funded by Nike.
There are some
>other pilot programs starting
that help talented
>T&F athletes develop independent of the
>traditional "college route".

Ken
>Largent
Bend, Oregon

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/10.08/nike.html
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 02, 2003 7:00 am

Fascinating. But I worry that like most other US athletes, especially distance runners, we are getting caught up in the peripherals (high altitude, sleep therapy, special shoes). I am sure the athletes in this program will benefit far more from training together (as Shorter, Moore and Pre did) than they will from a pressurized house. Has any studies been done on what harmful effect/shock it may have on the body to keep going into and out of altidue or simulated altitude while undergoing intense training.

I say forget the pressurized house and let them train together under the experienced eyes of Salazar.

Glad to see some corporate sponsorship of these type teams / training camps like the Japanese had for years.
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:05 am

>Fascinating. But I worry that like most other US
>athletes, especially distance runners, we are
>getting caught up in the peripherals (high
>altitude, sleep therapy, special shoes).

I'm not sure that the best guy to direct our developing marathoners is the one that ran around before the 1984 Olympics in an altitude-simulating mask. Dr. Tim Noakes summarizes studies that show altitude training has little, if any, positive impact on racing at sea-level. Even if you look at races within the USA, the Arkansas/Stanford/Colorado battles are usually won not by the team that trains at altitude but the one with the most horses.

If you get the right people into the sport, they'll be successful. The right people not only have great talent but train very hard and very smart. It's not that US runners can't beat just the highlanders of Africa -- they can hardly beat the best from any reasonably competitive nation in the world.

On the other hand, USwomen do quite well -- for example, runner-up at each of the last two World Cross Country meets. Are American training programs great for women and terrible for men, or is it that good women athletes have fewer sports to choose from?
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:41 am

Maybe we should talk Asics, or GE or MiscroSoft or..... into sponsoring a rival camp coached by Frank Shorter. Or maybe Don Kargdon (we could call his team Team Fruit Loops after his favorite breakfast).

Squire, I agree with you. The preliminary results from the group have not been very stirring. They did a string of road races this spring and none of the times were very fast and it produced only one victory. Lets give them through this fall marathon season though.

Maybe they could come out out of the house and up their mileage from 105 per week to 130 miles a week. (or 140 if Frank is coaching them).
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Re: Marathoners

Postby Guest » Wed Jul 02, 2003 11:27 am

Speed speed speed. Eyestone, Salazar, Shorter all had 27:40 or better 10K speed and carried it to the marathon. Actually, with Browne's 28:00 plus Culpepper at approx. 27:40 things could look up this fall. The other factor is most US runner take up marathons too late in thier career, once they are no longer a 5k/10k threat.

A 28:30 10K guy (damn good by my standards) will suffering and not in his "efficient" zone if he passes 10K in 30:00. I don't think critisizing our current crop of marathoners is valid, though. None but Culpepper and Meb even have the credentials to compete with the top runners in the world. The other guys are undoubtably bustin' ass, but if your "just" a 28:30-29:30 guy your just not going to run 2:10 (unless your name is Bill). Watch Shay, Culpepper, and Browne this fall. Don't even get me started on our OT marathon (I believe if Culpepper runs a good fall marathon (i.e. another 2:09) he should get a pass to Athens) - but that's for another day.
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