This seems very wrong...


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This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:30 pm

Lincoln and Cragg held hands and tried to tie in the NCAA 10K last night. Geez, guys...no need for competition, huh? Couldn't the referee have disqualified both of them for "rendering aid" to a competitor or some such for holding hands? If I had been the referee, and such ruling had been at my discression, I would have DQ'd both of them. Thoughts?
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby trackstar » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:32 pm

I can't see how you could describe holding hands as "rendering aid" unless it obviously was so. I'm glad you're not the ref -- I would fear a ref that would interpret rules so broadly. I see nothing wrong with teammates celebrating their team's victory.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby bubba » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:34 pm

maybe an honest effort violation but calling that when they've just stomped the field would be a little over the top.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby tafnut » Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:34 pm

And exactly where is the harm in tying?
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:18 pm

Lighten up.

By your logic, we should retroactively strip Frank Shorter and Jack Bachelor of their AAU 6-mile title.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby gh » Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:54 pm

By your logic, we should
>retroactively strip Frank Shorter and Jack
>Bachelor of their AAU 6-mile title.>>

Guess what?!!!! Fred Wilt (who edited "Track Technique" for many years) wrote an opinion piece in T&FN after that race ( or perhaps it was a national XC wehre they held hands) basically calling them cheaters, and calling for just that. Generated one of the greatest floods of letters--both pro and con--that T&FN ever got.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:49 pm

If Lincoln and Cragg had been DQ'ed, I think fans would've torn the place apart, and with good reason. It was a beautiful peace of team racing. Either could've smoke the field and run much faster, but watching the race unfold, knowing both had to come back and win their second events for a team title, it added a tremendous amount of drama.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 14, 2003 11:07 am

>Lighten up.

By your logic, we should
>retroactively strip Frank Shorter and Jack
>Bachelor of their AAU 6-mile title.

You're exactly right, they should be. Attempting to tie (holding hands or not) is a violation of the spirit of the honest effort principal. I would not only DQ both runners but ban them from NCAA competition for one calender year. Do this, and you will never see such a pathetic display of "racing" again.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:51 pm

Honest effort rule?! So now it's dishonest to love thy neighbor. I think we should DQ Lance Armstrong as he is pedalling down the Champs D'lysee (however the hell you spell it) with his arms up waving to the crowd. He is not honestly trying his best. And all those marathoners who wave as they come in - they should be in their 54 sec final 400 - and Carl Lewis should have been DQed at the Olympics as he raised his arms 10m before the finish - he lost at least .03 there! And the list goes on forever. Get off your high horse and let the competitors enjoy the moment.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:37 pm

>Honest effort rule?! So now it's dishonest to
>love thy neighbor. I think we should DQ Lance
>Armstrong as he is pedalling down the Champs
>D'lysee (however the hell you spell it) with his
>arms up waving to the crowd. He is not honestly
>trying his best. And all those marathoners who
>wave as they come in - they should be in their 54
>sec final 400 - and Carl Lewis should have been
>DQed at the Olympics as he raised his arms 10m
>before the finish - he lost at least .03 there!
>And the list goes on forever. Get off your high
>horse and let the competitors enjoy the moment.

Exactly. There's never been any rule that says runners must kick as hard as they can. Also, all the runners behind them should be DQ'd for not trying hard enough to keep up. This really is a stupid issue. I can't fathom why it offends people--probably mostly Anti-Ark folk.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:40 pm

I agree also with these last two postings:What is this "honest effort" rule anyway? Does honest effort mean that a runner can never (wisely) save energy for doubling back in other events? Is there something wrong with a runner winning without running all out?
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:47 am

The honest effort rule is about not insulting the competitive spirit, which these two clearly did. Also, holding hands (gayness aside) can qualify as aiding a competitor. Both should have been DQ'ed.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby CoachKoby » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:18 am

It should matter more how they raced, not how they finished. What would be wrong is for a competitor to purposely slow down to let someone win. If 2 competitors ran their hearts out and did their best and at the end were even and decided to tie, what would that hurt? I guess you.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:24 am

>It should matter more how they raced, not how
>they finished. What would be wrong is for a
>competitor to purposely slow down to let someone
>win.

But purposely slowing down to try to tie is OK? Strange logic...
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby MJD » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:25 am

>Honest effort rule?! So now it's dishonest to
>love thy neighbor. I think we should DQ Lance
>Armstrong as he is pedalling down the Champs
>D'lysee (however the hell you spell it) with his
>arms up waving to the crowd. He is not honestly
>trying his best.

An even better Lance example would be when he waited for Ullrich when he rode off the mountain. This bunch would want him to say sorry for your luck and take off.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby CoachKoby » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:27 am

You're not paying attention. I said that it would be wrong for an athlete to slow down and let the other guy win. Think before you type.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:33 am

>You're not paying attention. I said that it
>would be wrong for an athlete to slow down and
>let the other guy win. Think before you type.

No, I am paying attention. Appearantly, you think it is wrong to slow down to let someone else win, but it's OK to slow down to let someone tie. As I said, strange and somewhat random logic...

I'm glad you don't coach my team. "Alright, guys...get ready...we're going for the tie today!"
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby CoachKoby » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:37 am

No, if, after giving their best, 2 runners decide to or happen to tie then they shouldn't be penalized.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:41 am

>No, if, after giving their best, 2 runners decide
>to or happen to tie then they shouldn't be
>penalized.

Then we just disagree. I think it is repulsively wrong and should result in disqualification.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby CoachKoby » Mon Jun 16, 2003 5:44 am

We must. To disqualify them would seem to me to be overdoing it.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:44 am

"I think it is repulsively wrong"

- not to mention bringing up the gay thing?

Somebody's got some real issues here. You need your hormone levels checked, buddy. Those 'observations' are red flags to a shrink.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby CoachKoby » Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:20 am

How would you know? You're reading too much into this.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:24 am

In Wisconsin High School Cross Country and Track this is an automatic disqualification!!!
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:28 am

It is apparent that Observation has establisned (i) that he is not fit to officiate at a track meet and (ii) that he is on the lunatic fringe of track fans. Nobody in Sacramento did anything but applaud Lincoln and Cragg when they finished their race, nor should they have. Why don't we just let this thread die, rather than take this thought seriously.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby CoachKoby » Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:28 am

how do they determine if the tie is intentional?
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:30 am

>how do they determine if the tie is intentional?

Well, holding hands is a dead give away...
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby 197hjsteve » Mon Jun 16, 2003 8:05 am

Observation needs to Get A Life !
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 11:50 am

well, my name is NOT really Freud, but I really do have a Psychology degree, and if this behavior 'repulses' him, I'd hate to see what actual problems do to him.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 12:00 pm

>well, my name is NOT really Freud, but I really
>do have a Psychology degree, and if this behavior
>'repulses' him, I'd hate to see what actual
>problems do to him.

Wow, talk about overreaction. I was speaking in hyperobole. Exaggeration. Your analysis of my choice of adverbs is humorous.
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Re: This seems very wrong...

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 3:20 pm

So, what DID you mean to say? Seemed pretty clear to the rest of us.
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