Why is volzing wrong?


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Why is volzing wrong?

Postby tafnut » Tue Jun 10, 2003 3:54 pm

I have never understood what the problem with volzing is. I have NEVER heard one pole vaulter (in thirty years as a coach, competitor, or official) complain when his/her rival does it. Instead, they are impressed with the skill involved. If one's own competition has no problem with it, why should the judges care?! If you have the wherewithal to adjust the bar at the top of your vault, by all means, go for it. It's harder than clearing the bar cleanly, that's for sure. Are there any top vaulters out there who have a problem with it? If not, leave the damn vaulters alone. They are THE BEST overall athletes out there.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby 197hjsteve » Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:14 pm

it just does not pass the smell test.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby CoachKoby » Tue Jun 10, 2003 5:21 pm

Thought the multi event athletes were the best all-around athletes. Not every vaulter can or has the ability to place the bar back on the standards. Seems to me that it would not level the playing field.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby tafnut » Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:18 pm

#1 - you're a high jumper
#2 - of course not everyone can do it - it requires greater skill than vaulting itself.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby 197hjsteve » Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:31 pm

tafnut, you just proved my case with your # 2 reason. The event is the Pole VAULT, not the Polevaultputputhtebarbackon, better known as the Pole Volz.

I said it once before, it just does not smell right. I am sure others agree with me.

Hey, I LOVE the Pole Vault, always have. h I had had the strength and cordination to do it myself.

But High Jumpers are people too !

That's it, I am leaving my office and going home, it's late !
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby tafnut » Tue Jun 10, 2003 6:37 pm

I know that lots of people DO have a problem with volzing - I'm interested in finding elite (17+/13+) vaulters who have a problem with it. If your opponent does it and you LIKE it, that's a rule we don't need.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby Guest » Tue Jun 10, 2003 7:25 pm

Solidarity amongst HJ-ers makes me agree with Steve. It's cheating, pure and simple. Now a HJ-er voltzing would be interesting to see! Steve...who do you think the most under-achieving HJ-er is? My vote goes to Amy Acuff, seems more interested in promoting her blondness and physicality than her athletic prowess. Read an article last week where she said she wanted to break the WR more than winning OG gold. Amy jumping 2.10m...how delusional is that?
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby Guest » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:38 pm

you won't find many. the only people who are oppsed to it are the ones who can't do it. Is it an unfair advantage if my competitor can grip 6" higher on a pole 1 foot longer than i can? it would seem that way using some people's arguments. Just to make it fair, why don't we make every vaulter jump on the same pole? of course we wouldn't! The problem with these rule changes in the vault is that nobody consults anyone in the vault community before making them. Did anyone notice how cheesed off we were when the new rules were handed down? Did anyone even care? Of course not! We're only pole vaulters, who cares how we think our sport should be contested.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:50 pm

They consulted Bubka. Isn't that enough? haha
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby tafnut » Wed Jun 11, 2003 4:59 am

a famous volzer, if there ever was one!
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby 197hjsteve » Wed Jun 11, 2003 6:17 am

this argument is getting nowhere, so I say my last word and then forget it.

First off let me say that I agree completely that the new "shorter peg" standard is absolutely ridiculous. "Nuff said on that.

But if the only argument for Volzing is to justify more clearances that is not good enough.

It's just like in the NFL when Lester Hayes used to put glue all over his hands so he could catch balls better. It was not illegal, it was a new idea. But the rulesmakers quickly saw that it distorted the basic concepts of the event so they outlawed it. That's how I feel about Volzing.

It is a vaulting event, not a manual dexterity event.

So to all you PV'ers, start jumping and stop complaining about Volzing. It is against the rules and the rule is fair. Yes it adds a potential judgement call by the official, as to whether the touching is intentional and/or helpful ( if I have the rule right ) but officials are paid to make judgement calls.

OK I am done, and I really do love the event. First track and field meet I ever saw was Millrose Games in 1956 at age 12. I can still picture Bob Richards clearing 15'4" for a meet record. Been a Tafnut ever since.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby 197hjsteve » Wed Jun 11, 2003 6:25 am

I am sure Amy Acuff is a very nice person but I agree that she has been on aplateau for a good 5 years. It's a pretty high plateau and she is leading a pleasant life skipping around the world high jumping.... wish I could do it.... but anything above 2.00 is a dreamworld for her.

And let's face it, being a white, attractive female athlete is a card that she plays to her advantage, but you or I would do the same. Wish my name was Tye Harvey......
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby tafnut » Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:58 am

OK, then these are my last words as well (yeah right). I asked if any POLE VAULTERS had a problem with volzing. I know none. I would ask OTHER people to respect the desires of the POLE VAULTERS concerning their own event. They did not ask for the volzing rule, the peg rule or the crossbar rule. Non-pole vaulters brought those rules. If the POLE VAULTERS agree they don't need these rules, aren't they the ones affected? They like the 'level playing field' the way it was. It's about FAIR competition, and if the athletes themselves agree on what the rules are, why on earth would you not respect their wishes?!It's their event, not the officials'. Wasn't the first fiberglass pole grossly 'unfair'? The answer is obviously not, cuz here we sit with an exciting event.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby 197hjsteve » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:01 am

you're right, there is never a last word with anyone.

No one gets to set all their own rules. To draw an extreme example:

All BANK ROBBERS collectively think it is ok to rob banks ! What right does anyone else have to tell them otherwise ?

Plus the people that set the rules are not always total idiots. They are, to varying degrees, " experts" in T & F and are sincerely trying to do what is best. I suspect you will think that sounds naive but that is how a society and any organization works.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby 197hjsteve » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:08 am

And as to fiberglass poles, I personally wish they had never been invented. No knock here on anyone but it distorted the event. The pole should be incidental to the performance.

Yes I know you will say it is now the same for everyone so what difference does it make. That's true no doubt, and I LOVE the PV, I just wish everyone was still jumping on steel poles. WR today I say would be about 17 feet.

So there is a good item for a new thread ( to change the subject !! ): what to all you experts out there think the WR would be if the fiberglass pole had never seen the light of day ?
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby ashcraftpv » Wed Jun 11, 2003 11:22 am

btw, mr. Anonymous up there was me, just didn't know how to log into this damn thing.

i'd like to see all the new rules tossed out myself, but i could live with the old volzing rule where you weren't allowed to replace the bar, but you were allowed to steady it. I think it would be a good compromise between us vaulters and those "purists" out there. It would also make the judgemnt call for the officials alot easier. If the crossbar comes off of one of the pegs and the vaulter touches it with his hand, its an automatic miss. If the bar does not come off the pegs, then i think we should be able to do with it as we please. It took me years to learn how to volz. do i do it all the time? no.

if you think about it, pole vaulting is ultimately the vaulter vs. the crossbar. why are so many rooting for the crossbar?
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby 197hjsteve » Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:16 pm

ashcraftpv, just to show how reasonable I am, if I was King of Track, I would accept that as a compromise.

Peace.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby tafnut » Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:45 pm

"To draw an extreme example: All BANK ROBBERS collectively think it is ok to rob banks ! What right does anyone else have to tell them otherwise?"

It's so extreme - it makes no sense. It's not their money. The event SHOULD be for the benefit of the athletes. If they all agree to play by certain rules - end of discussion (I wish).
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby vaulter83 » Wed Jun 11, 2003 6:44 pm

One of the main problems with it is it isn't called consistently. Hartwig got screwed by this in the '99 indoor worlds. He got called for volzing. In one of the next couple jumps Galfione did almost the exact same thing and no call. Galfione one the gold.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby Per Andersen » Wed Jun 11, 2003 9:30 pm

Had it not been for the volzing the IAAF would have left the pegs alone.
There has actually been volzing in the H.J.
In the 20's Harold Osborne in his Western Roll style used to press the bar down and back. Because of this the IAAF changed the standards so that the bar could fall down on either side.
But why worry about Acuff when Kajsa is jumping?
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby Powell » Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:03 am

>"To draw an extreme example: All BANK ROBBERS
>collectively think it is ok to rob banks ! What
>right does anyone else have to tell them
>otherwise?"

It's so extreme - it makes no
>sense. It's not their money. The event SHOULD be
>for the benefit of the athletes. If they all
>agree to play by certain rules - end of
>discussion (I wish).

The athletes do NOT compete entirely for themselves. If they did, they would not get paid to do so. The fact that they receive appearance fees, prize money, result bonuses, NCAA scholarships etc. for competing means that other parties do benefit in various ways from what they do. Thus, the bank robber example was actually a good one: it's not their money in this case, either.

If pole vaulters want to get together by themselves and organize a competition, agreeing that they will not benefit financially from it in any way (no admittance fees charged, won't be eligible for any shoe company bonuses etc.) - fine, they can play by whatever rules they want. Otherwise, it's only fair that the people who pay the bill get a say.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby 197hjsteve » Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:56 am

vaulter83, I agree that there is a problem with judging consistency of this, but that is a way of life and also in all sports.... judgement calls are NEVER consistent anywhere, anytime, anywhere, for anything. That's why they are called judgement calls.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby twinpeeks » Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:48 am

Mr. Andersen,

Kajsa was not only beaten by Waller in Eugene, but really took a beating today in Ostrava :).
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby Guest » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:05 am

I think that if someone vaults, knocks the bar off, catches it, and throws it back to the stand and gets it to stay, the attempt sould count.

I am a BIG UGLY MORON.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby Powell » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:07 am

What are you talking about? The competition is still in progress...
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby Powell » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:08 am

>What are you talking about? The competition is
>still in progress...

That was a reply to twinpeeks's post, in case you were wondering.
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby Powell » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:32 am

I thought twinpeeks might have had a premonition, but no - Bergqvist cleared 2.01 tonight for a clear win (she hasn't finished jumping at the time I'm writing this - she could still go higher).
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Re: Why is volzing wrong?

Postby Guest » Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:36 am

a very big moron sent over the wrong result
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