Events that should be eliminated


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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Tue Jun 10, 2003 9:38 pm

Also the lion's share of press and public attention that Webb got was for breaking a very long-standing record, not for going sub-4:00.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Halfmiler » Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:05 pm

Why reinvent the wheel when you admit Joe lunchpail already knows it is difficult to break 4:00 in the mile? Many Joe Lunchpails have no clue whether 1600 meters is the length of a football field or the distance between NY and Philadelphia.

At a time when our sport is desparately trying to connect to the public, making it more difficult for them to understand it instead of less difficult makes no sense whatsoever.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 11, 2003 12:25 pm

Halfmiler is correct - run the mile in High School. As for the 3200/3000/2mile debate in High School - I don't really care. For my money you could eliminate those races all togather.

30 minutes at the end of a high school meet watching the 2 miles for boys/girls would be better spent running a distance medley for each sex. Too often 2 miles are runaways, and it gives kids an excuse to not work on speed. They will have plenty of time to race long on the track later.

2 mile track races are not even exciting to me (a distance runner). The same can be said for 10K in college - bag it. Throw all the distance guys/gals in the 5k for better racing and save the longer races for CC.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 11, 2003 4:10 pm

Joe Lunchpail(s) would be equally apathetic whether U.S. high schoolers ran a mile, 1500 meters, 2/3 leagues, 1/2 fathom, or twice the square root of an acre. Why would anyone ever think that going to the mile is the magic pill that will do more to draw the public to high school track meets? That would be the height of self-delusion.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 11, 2003 4:50 pm

the 1500 meters -- after 100, 200, 400, 800, what is sillier then 3 3/4 laps?
Ditto with the 3000. Seven and a half laps? why not 8?
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:12 pm

Why, indeed. Why 4 laps and 8, why not 5 laps and 10? Or how about 3 laps and 6? You're right, it's the whole rest of the world that has it wrong. Dig those heels in deeper, that'll show 'em all just how right we are.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:33 pm

>Why, indeed. Why 4 laps and 8, why not 5 laps
>and 10? Or how about 3 laps and 6? You're
>right, it's the whole rest of the world that has
>it wrong. Dig those heels in deeper, that'll
>show 'em all just how right we are.

Not sure that it a matter of we're right and they're wrong. Back in the day when the 440 yard tracks were the standard at high schools and most colleges, 4 laps made a mile. As we converted to 400 meter tracks , we had to make a choice... do we keep make the race equivalent in terms of laps or distance? Considering the fact that the 220y became the 200m, 440y and 400m, etc... it would appear we chose the lap equivelents -- hence the 1600 (4 laps times 400m) and the 3200 (8 laps times 400m).

Imagine if we chose equivalent distances instead of laps? The 91.44m , 201.16m, etc...
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 11, 2003 5:47 pm

For the sanity of 5000m runners everywhere, drop the 47 heats of the 200m at many a track meet!
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:56 am

The
>IAAF recognizes records in the 1000, 2000, etc.
>but that doesn't make either of those distances
>as or more 'important' than the 1500. The mile
>is sometimes run, but never in the major
>championships nor even raced as frequently as the
>1500 and not much more than the 3000 is.

Reality check:
If you look at non-US Grand Prix meets in 2002, on the men's side, the 1500 was run 16 times, the mile 3 times, the 3000 10 times.
On the women's side: 13 races in 1500, NONE in 1 mile, 10 in 3000.

Face it: hardly anyone outside the US gives a damn about mile races. The three meets which did hold 1 mile races had specific reasons to do so: Oslo has a long-established tradition with its Golden Mile, London is used to the English system (although they do use the metric system these days) and Rome wanted to give El Guerrouj a shot at a WR (the 1500 record is harder to beat). No other meet outside the US had a mile race.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:14 pm

I never said going back to the mile instead of the 1600 is a magic bullet but it does make a difference as evidenced by the favorable publicity that Alan Webb got. He would not have gotten nearly the same publicity for breaking 4 minutes in the 1600.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Thu Jun 12, 2003 12:32 pm

>For the sanity of 5000m runners everywhere, drop
>the 47 heats of the 200m at many a track meet!

Amen to that! Wow, how many meets have I run the 5,000 where I had to play the "warm up-wait-warm up-wait-warm up-wait" game due to the endless 200 meter heats.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby DIII Coach » Thu Jun 12, 2003 1:09 pm

Actually John Zishka ran his 4:03 at the Golden West meet so BK's state MEET record is legit, but it shouldn't stand as the STATE record (although I think that's what you were getting at and I thoroughly agree!!!).
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:43 pm

in some sense having a 1500 when there is a mile is silly. but can't you look the other way around that because we have the 1500 for a world champs the mile is silly. let's just be glad as distance runners (support even if ur not a distance runner) that we have these two great events to pick from.

i read from an earlier post that having an event 100m+ shorter doesn't make sense. look at sprinters (im not knocking you,im just trying to make a point), you have the 100m and 200m. now if my math serves me correctly, they are only 100m apart, but yet each one it important and requires a slighlty different tactic to race.

if you're gonna argue about distances, you should argue why some events have hurdles with them, or even take it out to the field, why should there be 4 throwing event (a ball, a ball with a cord, a disc, and a long stick), why not just make it into one. because each event is different, requires different skill,tactics, and lets be glad that we have these different events.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:41 am

>in some sense having a 1500 when there is a mile
>is silly. but can't you look the other way around
>that because we have the 1500 for a world champs
>the mile is silly. let's just be glad as distance
>runners (support even if ur not a distance
>runner) that we have these two great events to
>pick from.

i read from an earlier post that
>having an event 100m+ shorter doesn't make sense.
>look at sprinters (im not knocking you,im just
>trying to make a point), you have the 100m and
>200m. now if my math serves me correctly, they
>are only 100m apart, but yet each one it
>important and requires a slighlty different
>tactic to race.

if you're gonna argue about
>distances, you should argue why some events have
>hurdles with them, or even take it out to the
>field, why should there be 4 throwing event (a
>ball, a ball with a cord, a disc, and a long
>stick), why not just make it into one. because
>each event is different, requires different
>skill,tactics, and lets be glad that we have
>these different events.

When you look at the big picture, the best option is probably to leave the events as they are. So much of the world runs 1500m, some occassionally run a mile, and high school runners are "forced" to run 1600m. I don't see the big deal. As it stands, several other events are contested under different rules at the various levels of competition: the shot and discus vary in weight, the height of the high hurdles is higher for some than others, there's the 300m hurdles vs 400m hurdles debate, and distances in XC races vary greatly. Then, there's the whole gender issue dealing with weights and hurdle height.

If the concern is that it's difficult to judge a runners ability to make it at the next level of competition (ie, can't truly judge someone's 1500m potential when they're running a mile or 1600), then wouldn't that also apply to the weight throws and hurdles? How many outstanding HS shot putters have vanished from the scene because they could barely throw college/international shot 50 ft? Or, the sub-13 sec HS hurdler to suddenly found that the extra 3in on the hurdle made him into nothing more than a sub-15 sec hurdler.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:46 pm

Dear Professor:

Class needs to be called back into session. The walks fully deserve to be dropped in the dust-bin of history.

I was a "walk"-believer way back when--and even, I hate to admit it--competed in a few track mile walks. What opened my eyes big-time was watching the 20k walk at the '88 US Olympic trials. I watched the athletes very carefully and was amazed to see that what seemed like half the field was clearly floating (i.e. CHEATING) every time the group came past me. The group strategy seemed pretty clear: the "walkers" on the outside of the scrum had pretty good form, while the ones hidden in the middle were just as clearly NOT legit. I presume that the group rotated around every now and then so that nearly everyone got their chance to relax and jog. Now, I'll admit, I did not have a high-speed movie camera, and can't produce the film to prove this...but that's what I saw, and I looked really carefully. It seemed comically absurd to me. (The judges, by the way, seemed pretty few and far beteween--there were significant gaps of road without a single judge.)

I don't want to tar everyone with the same brush. For example, I've seen film of Larry Young and from what I could tell, he was completely legit. I'll wager that in the entire history of "walking," there are at least another dozen or so other "walkers" who were completely legit. Maybe I'm being too generous, but that's the kind of guy I am.

The walks deserve to go because they ENCOURAGE CHEATING. By their very nature, they are about CHEATing as much as one can get away with, and not a single un-straightened knee less. In no other event is CHEATING so integral to the very nature of the activity.

I'm all for race walking, power walking, chicken walking, you name it, when done in the privacy of one's own suburban streets or high school track. But it is hopeless to pretend that such activities deserve our respect as "sports." They don't. Further, arguments that "walkers" deserve our respect because they are dedicated, train hard, good family folk, etc., are irrelevant. Good people may devote lots of effort to all manner of activites--juggling, yodeling, flying kites, whatever--and we are not obligated to call any of these actrivities a "sport."

Track and field fans have a simple solution to this embarrasing problem: Don't pay any attention to the walks. Pretend they don't exist, and sooner or later they won't.

LASTLY: If you want a couple events to add to the program, I'd nominate the 1000 and 600 meter runs. Both would freshen up the typical circuit programs, while allowing athletes from different events to meet on reasonably common ground. They shouldn't replace the 800 and 400 of course, but could be run at, say, 10-15% of the meets on the circuit.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:51 am

Very well said, kuha. You hit the nail on the head about the problem with the walks- the method of forward movement is strictly governed by rules that are loosely enforced. Toss the walks!
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby RAP » Tue Jun 17, 2003 10:23 am

The final day of the Olympics as an "all relay day" gets my vote 100%. In fact, let's make it standard at all meets.

RAP out.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:31 am

If the walks are too loosely enforced, the answer is to enforce them better. Long live the walks!
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:38 am

That still doesn't address the other problem, that being that walks bore me.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby CoachKoby » Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:56 am

Then just don't watch them. There are many people who like the walks.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 18, 2003 6:56 am

The answer to the walk debate is simple enough. Simply attatch a sensor to the bottom of each shoe - 1 of which must be in contact with the ground at all times. If neither is in contact the walker is penalized/disqualified. Seems completely doable in this day and age - probably could have a few techogeeks here locally devise the system in 2 days if I bought them enough Mountain Dew.

I can't stand watching the walk events simply because I believe most are not walking - if I knew the rules were enforced I at least can respect the event.

I don't want to see the walks discontinued - why take away a fan base when we are trying to grow the sport? Simply enforce the rules electronically.

Wonder how the walkers would respond to being monitored electronically?
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:24 am

Let's just hope high school federations wake up. Perhaps the mile should be eliminated all together, with the exception of special invitationals like Arcadia and the GW. There is a reluctance to change from 1600m to 1500m because people are used to relating to "mile" times, even though 1600m is not a mile. If federations were willing to change all running events to meters, why not complete the plunge and get the 1500m on the books. It serves no purpose to keep 1600m. We are the only country that runs that event. Look on the bright side, if you were a young athlete, would you like to run an event that is 100m shorter in distance. Come on U.S., get in line with the international community.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby MJR » Wed Jun 18, 2003 9:08 am

>The answer to the walk debate is simple enough.
>Simply attatch a sensor to the bottom of each
>shoe - 1 of which must be in contact with the
>ground at all times. If neither is in contact
>the walker is penalized/disqualified. Seems
>completely doable in this day and age - probably
>could have a few techogeeks here locally devise
>the system in 2 days if I bought them enough
>Mountain Dew.

It has been tried on a very highly technical level. The systems are not reliable enough to work without an acceptable failure rate.

>I can't stand watching the
>walk events simply because I believe most are
>not walking - if I knew the rules were enforced
>I at least can respect the event.

Most Intl & Natl level athletes are complying with the rules. Exceptions are, just that, exceptions. The rules are enforced, for the most part, although there is a definite need to better educate judges and coaches as to what constitutes legal walking from a biomechanical standpoint.

>I don't
>want to see the walks discontinued - why take
>away a fan base when we are trying to grow the
>sport? Simply enforce the rules
>electronically.

Wonder how the walkers would
>respond to being monitored electronically?

The RWers want to remain being judged by people, although better educated ones. If we start using non-human judging, then we need to do the same for hurdling and relay exchanges too. This would be the end of the sport as we know it.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:29 am

I disagree that non-human judging will ruin our sport - we already use it to determine false starts - no one is complaining there. The beauty of our sport is how totally OBJECTIVE it is. No points for "form". The reason walks are scoffed at by so many is that they are so SUBJECTIVE (judges). It is not too difficult to observe a hurdle infraction - only slightly more difficult to observe a exchange zone infraction. Compare that to trying to watch each of 30,000 or so strides of each of 100+ competitors in a 50k - it's just not doable to the level of "OBJECTIVITY" required by the average T&F fan.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Wed Jun 18, 2003 10:40 am

Before 1980 we ran in N.J. like every other state the mile and the 2-mile. When we went metric in 1980 we ran the 1500 and the 3000. Less than two years later we switched to the 1600 and the 3200. The reason given was that the national association (to this day I don't know what association) said that the 1500 and 3000 was too confusing for the spectators and athletes because the races were not full laps. The funny thing was that as a coach and spectator I didn't see any such confusion. Only the track purists look at them as being "bastard distances." All it would take to running a full mile or 2 mile would be a couple of extra lines drawn across the track. I don't think that will happen. Some things don't make logical sense and that's just one of them.
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby Guest » Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:41 am

>OK- this one should be fun. What events should
>be eliminated from track and field- and
>why?

My pick: race walking. Why: Boring.
>Chases off fans. Inconsistent with the rest of
>track. (It's not just about getting to the
>finish first- it's about getting to the finish
>first while adhering to a set of rules about
>knee position and contact w/ground.)

I agree with this. The walks are inconsistent with what track is about. The walks suck. They suck more than anything has ever sucked before. I also agree that the high schools should either go to a true mile or to 1500 meters. My preferance would be the mile. How hard is it to have a waterfall line 9 or so meters back of the finish line?
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Re: Events that should be eliminated

Postby The Flash » Thu Jun 19, 2003 8:20 am

Agreed. Why not run a more standard race? Just run the mile, or run the 1500.
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