Do away with different classes in HS XC


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby DrJay » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:06 am

We've discussed this before, didn't want to go searching for the threads. Perfect example of why there should be only one class in HS XC is at hand. Cerake Geberkindane ran 14:46 at altitude in mid-September for Denver East HS. Bailey Roth won the US Youth Champs 2000m steeple and finished 7th (I think) in the World Youth steeple (one of those times is, I belive, 2nd on the all-time US list) and runs for Coronado HS here in Colorado Springs. The Colorado High School State Meet is this Saturday here in the Springs. The problem? Denver East is 5A, Coronado is 4A. Roth will run at 10:30 am, Geberkindane at 1:00 pm, over the same course. How ridiculous. Maybe they'll meet at Footlocker, but that's not the same as a mano-a-mano duel for a high school state championship. It just ain't. End of rant.
DrJay
 
Posts: 5483
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Woodland Park, CO

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby huntinwr » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:13 am

At least they have the opportunity to meet at some other meet. I remember when I ran HS XC in the late 1960s, the state meet WAS the be all and end all. Worse still, there were NO girls! :D
huntinwr
 
Posts: 282
Joined: Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:49 pm
Location: Walla Walla, Washington

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby DrJay » Thu Oct 24, 2013 9:19 am

huntinwr wrote:At least they have the opportunity to meet at some other meet. I remember when I ran HS XC in the late 1960s, the state meet WAS the be all and end all. Worse still, there were NO girls! :D


Agree and agree!
DrJay
 
Posts: 5483
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Woodland Park, CO

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby gh » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:24 am

how many states (even roughly) have a no-class system?
gh
 
Posts: 46314
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby booond » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:26 am

DrJay wrote:We've discussed this before, didn't want to go searching for the threads. Perfect example of why there should be only one class in HS XC is at hand. Cerake Geberkindane ran 14:46 at altitude in mid-September for Denver East HS. Bailey Roth won the US Youth Champs 2000m steeple and finished 7th (I think) in the World Youth steeple (one of those times is, I belive, 2nd on the all-time US list) and runs for Coronado HS here in Colorado Springs. The Colorado High School State Meet is this Saturday here in the Springs. The problem? Denver East is 5A, Coronado is 4A. Roth will run at 10:30 am, Geberkindane at 1:00 pm, over the same course. How ridiculous. Maybe they'll meet at Footlocker, but that's not the same as a mano-a-mano duel for a high school state championship. It just ain't. End of rant.


Wouldn't the race be crowded if all towns and cities converge in one race.

Why not have a separate race the next weekend for the top-10/20 individuals in each division?
booond
 
Posts: 572
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:25 am

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Grasshopper » Thu Oct 24, 2013 10:37 am

gh wrote:how many states (even roughly) have a no-class system?

California doesn't for T&F, but does for XC. Go figure.
Grasshopper
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: In front of my computer

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:47 am

That's what the big post-season meets are for. Separate classes just build the suspense for Footlocker and Nike Nationals! :D
Marlow
 
Posts: 21079
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Mighty Favog » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:04 pm

booond wrote:Why not have a separate race the next weekend for the top-10/20 individuals in each division?
A quick glance at Dyestat seems to indicate that New Hampshire, New Jersey and Connecticut do just that.

I haven't done an exhaustive search but it looks like the only state without divisions is Indiana. Lightly populated states like Wyoming, Vermont, Delaware and North Dakota all have divisions.

My personal opinion is that high school sports are a) for the masses, not the elite, and b) all about the team. So I fully support divisions. Ohio schools that participate in cross country range in enrollment from 9 (I am not making this up) to 2559 and in team competition it does tend to make a difference.
Mighty Favog
 
Posts: 1786
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:12 pm

There are classifications for the same reasons there are divisions in world sports everywhere (and NCAA Div 1/2/3): keeps the playing field fairly level.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21079
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Grasshopper » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:24 pm

Marlow wrote:There are classifications for the same reasons there are divisions in world sports everywhere (and NCAA Div 1/2/3): keeps the playing field fairly level.

While that's true for team sports where the number of students in a school has a very large effect on their ability to field a quality TEAM, is it relevant for individual sports like T&F and XC? I think that's the point of the original question. Do large school-individual athletes have any real and significant advantage over small-school individual athletes in XC?
Grasshopper
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: In front of my computer

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby skyin' brian » Thu Oct 24, 2013 12:48 pm

Grasshopper wrote:
Marlow wrote:There are classifications for the same reasons there are divisions in world sports everywhere (and NCAA Div 1/2/3): keeps the playing field fairly level.

While that's true for team sports where the number of students in a school has a very large effect on their ability to field a quality TEAM, is it relevant for individual sports like T&F and XC? I think that's the point of the original question. Do large school-individual athletes have any real and significant advantage over small-school individual athletes in XC?


I thought that XC was mostly seen as a team sport first and individual sport second.

I think booond's suggestion above makes sense.
skyin' brian
 
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby dukehjsteve » Thu Oct 24, 2013 1:09 pm

gh wrote:how many states (even roughly) have a no-class system?



Indiana 1-class in both T&F and CC.
dukehjsteve
 
Posts: 6056
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Fishers, IN

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby lonewolf » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:40 pm

X-C is a team sport with the opportunity for individual distinction. Superior runners may go all out wire to wire but many successful schools deliberately run much of the race as a group and unleash the studs near the end of the race.

Track and Field is more of an individual sport. There is team scoring but nothing to be gained by slacking off individually.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8814
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:41 pm

How many situation like the one described at the beginning of the thread are there? For a state like Arizona, there are many classes, and if you throw them all in one meet it logistically doesn't work. More kids get to participate in a decent event this way.

There are invitation meets where top teams and individuals get invited and so you get the best racing the best in those meets. Many of the top runners continue on in the regional and national meets as well. I would argue, leave it alone. It is just fine the way it is. They could add a plus one type meet for top runners from each class for a true state championship meet. That I would like.
odelltrclan
 
Posts: 1554
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:30 pm

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Jnathletics » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:59 pm

Grasshopper wrote:
Marlow wrote:There are classifications for the same reasons there are divisions in world sports everywhere (and NCAA Div 1/2/3): keeps the playing field fairly level.

While that's true for team sports where the number of students in a school has a very large effect on their ability to field a quality TEAM, is it relevant for individual sports like T&F and XC? I think that's the point of the original question. Do large school-individual athletes have any real and significant advantage over small-school individual athletes in XC?


I disagree, of course the larger schools have a big advantage in sports like T&F and X-C. Its in the numbers. What makes for good HS X-C and Track teams? Numbers. The fact that a team can have 3 or more athletes in an event helps greatly. Plus, training is always more beneficial with teammates. Its easier for a kid to improve at the bigger schools, Coach just has to encourage the new kid to stay with the more experienced kids and watch the improvement. While at small schools your on your own. How do you know if you are working hard if there is nobody around? How does a new kid learn to train or race without teammates to push you. Yes there are small school stars that are able to beat this disadvantage, but team wise having 15-20 kids compete for the 7 spots has inherit benefits versus the team that struggles to get 7 out for the team. Where the big team can replace athletes due to their depth making the team members push each other just to earn a spot, while the small schools typically have a peaking order which doesn't change.

So, i'm all for the divisions in HS sports. Would you say the playing field is level between a BCS football team with all their players scholarships and facilities versus a div III program with no scholarships? HS isn't that bad but big schools at least have the advantage in numbers and usually money. Big schools may not be the best for educating all kids, but when it comes to the sports fields it has many advantages.
Jnathletics
 
Posts: 2213
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Cross Country Mudville

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby dukehjsteve » Thu Oct 24, 2013 4:30 pm

In Indiana CC, there's the many Sectionals, then about 16 Regionals, then 4 SemiStates, and then State, all in a Tuesday-Saturday-Saturday-Saturday sequence. Top 5 teams from each round advance, plus the top 10 individuals not making it on a team advance in each round.
dukehjsteve
 
Posts: 6056
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Fishers, IN

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Master Po » Thu Oct 24, 2013 5:59 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:In Indiana CC, there's the many Sectionals, then about 16 Regionals, then 4 SemiStates, and then State, all in a Tuesday-Saturday-Saturday-Saturday sequence. Top 5 teams from each round advance, plus the top 10 individuals not making it on a team advance in each round.


And IMHO, it's a great way to do it. Obviously, I never lived in all 50 states and so can't compare what the HS xc season is like, and how it's covered in local/statewide media, but in Indiana at least, this makes for a great, well-focused competitive system. (But as with all things I'm sure there are good reasons for other systems, too.)
:)
Master Po
 
Posts: 2630
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: north coast USA

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby kuha » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:05 pm

Mighty Favog wrote:A quick glance at Dyestat seems to indicate that New Hampshire, New Jersey and Connecticut do just that.


I always thought that CT (and similar states) had the perfect system. Our schedule back then included (on more or less consecutive weekends):
-regional championships
-class state meets (A, B, and C)
-All-state or Open meet (included something like top 8 from A, 5 from B, 3 from C, in track,as I recall; in X-C it may have been something like the top 30, 20, and 10)
-New England championships

This system rewarded talent at all levels, in a legit way, while ensuring that the very best faced each other.
Last edited by kuha on Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
kuha
 
Posts: 9015
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: 3rd row, on the finish line

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby DrJay » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:32 pm

Doesn't, or didn't at one time, the Midwest have a "post-state meet" meet that included state champs from Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and maybe one other state (Michigan or Wisconsin?) If so, was this in track or XC or both?

I've thought having a meet the week after state, inviting the top ten or such from each class, would be one idea. I've been influenced by a long-time friend who ran in Indiana in the early '70s and always touted the no-class system....if you won state, you really were the state champion.
DrJay
 
Posts: 5483
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Woodland Park, CO

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Mighty Favog » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:02 am

DrJay wrote:Doesn't, or didn't at one time, the Midwest have a "post-state meet" meet that included state champs from Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and maybe one other state (Michigan or Wisconsin?) If so, was this in track or XC or both?

I've thought having a meet the week after state, inviting the top ten or such from each class, would be one idea. I've been influenced by a long-time friend who ran in Indiana in the early '70s and always touted the no-class system....if you won state, you really were the state champion.
The Midwest Meet of Champions (track) and Mideast Meet of Champions (XC) still exist but neither are quite what they used to be since other post-season meets have ramped up over the last decade or so, and it's always been for seniors only due to state regulations. Even there the kids run for teams (their state) and scores are kept, and the kids take that competition seriously.

The no-division system works in Indiana due to the longstanding basketball traditions. Elsewhere I don't think it would. I like Ohio's system; we're the 7th most-populous state but still only have three divisions for track and XC. It's pretty tough to win a state title here, and Jesse Owens Stadium is just as full for the D-III state championship meet as it is for the D-I meet.
Mighty Favog
 
Posts: 1786
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby PDJ551 » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:12 am

New Jersey has the best of both worlds. There are 4 public and 2 private school groups of course based on enrollment. Among the public schools there are 4 sectionals with about 20 schools in each group. The top 10 and top 5 teams qualify for the group championships. At the groups the top 2 teams and 10 individuals move on. In addition there is I believe 2 wild card teams which usually come from the large group. In addition there are wild card individual runners as well. Then we have the State Meet of Champions. Team awards are given out in each of the 3 tiers.

New Jersey being a small state in which no one has to travel much more than 2 hrs to get to the site makes the system work. In larger states you couldn't expect to have such a system.

True xc is an individual sport but at the high school level team competition is important. One can't expect schools with the enrollment of 400 compete with schools who have 3000.
PDJ551
 
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby lonewolf » Fri Oct 25, 2013 10:27 am

I think multiple classes are ok for seasonal competition. Good individuals can come from any size school but , realistically, small teams cannot compete for team titles against larger schools.
Oklahoma has a Meet of Champions the week after state meets. The top three finishers from each of 6 classes have distinctive uniforms. It is well attended, even by kids from the far corners of the state, and one of my favorite meets to work.
They do not have relays and the winners are well distributed among the several classes.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8814
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Marlow » Fri Oct 25, 2013 12:48 pm

lonewolf wrote:Oklahoma has a Meet of Champions the week after state meets. The top three finishers from each of 6 classes have distinctive uniforms. It is well attended, even by kids from the far corners of the state, and one of my favorite meets to work.

Florida had that ONE year (in the 90s) and it was a flop. Most of the kids wanted to pack it in. I've often wondered how other states can do it.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21079
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby skyin' brian » Fri Oct 25, 2013 1:02 pm

PDJ551 wrote:True xc is an individual sport but at the high school level team competition is important.


This is the biggest problem with these championship meets - that they combine the individual and team competition into one meet. This can prevent individual state championship contenders on a championship quality team from chasing individual glory. I think most of us understand this fact, but it didn't always make sense to me, so i'll briefly explain...

a star runner can choose to run conservatively and finish somewhere in the top 3-5 places, or run for the win and maybe bring home the individual title (and the preciously small 1 team point), but in going for the win, he runs a greater risk of fading badly to 10th-15th place (this scenario might put his team out of contention).

I'm okay with the runner making either choice, but it would be a tough pill to swallow if you let the team down while trying for individual glory.

Heck, maybe the guy that breaks away early isn't even on a qualifying team, so 2nd is as good as first as far as team scoring goes, but your stud runner desperatly wants that state title that eluded him last year. I guess it could even cheapen the title won by an individual if he suspected that the star runner in 2nd or 3rd was playing it safe for his team.

oh well, now I'm rambling and have probably overthought this.
skyin' brian
 
Posts: 1127
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby TR » Fri Oct 25, 2013 5:28 pm

NY runs a championship race after the state champs called Federation. Each section within NY selects a team representative, typically with a race. Top individuals are selected as are at large teams. This typically gets the best teams and individuals to race head to head, regardless of class size or stacked section. In the past the meet was very important but FM has foregone racing here in favor of resting up for the Nike meet. This has taken off some of the luster but it is still a great meet that pits small and large schools in one race.
TR
 
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby lonewolf » Fri Oct 25, 2013 7:43 pm

Marlow wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Oklahoma has a Meet of Champions the week after state meets. The top three finishers from each of 6 classes have distinctive uniforms. It is well attended, even by kids from the far corners of the state, and one of my favorite meets to work.

Florida had that ONE year (in the 90s) and it was a flop. Most of the kids wanted to pack it in. I've often wondered how other states can do it.

I dunno how we do it either.. Oklahoma has been doing it for ????? years..We just have a track meet and (nearly) everyone shows up.Last year in the LJ, I had 17 of 18 eligible girls and 16 of 18 eligible boys. The evening meet is held in OKC in the center of the state so no one is more than 400 miles from home.The meet is on Tuesday after State on Saturday... maybe the kids from the Panhandle and Idabel just don't go home.. the kids love it... there is good natured rivalry between the classes and winners come from every class school... welcome change for both athletes and officials from pressure of "more important" meets.. I even get to do a little coach coaching ... can hardly wait till next year. :)
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8814
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby DrJay » Fri Oct 25, 2013 9:16 pm

Interesting. Just scoped out the website for tomorrow's state meets. Looks like 2A runs 5 and scores 3, and 3A runs 6 and scores 4. (4A and 5A run 7 and score 5.) Any other states do that for the smaller schools?
DrJay
 
Posts: 5483
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Woodland Park, CO

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Jnathletics » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:55 pm

Michigan has 7 state champs, 4 divisions in the Lower Peninsula (LP) and 3 in the Upper Peninsula (UP). They separate the Peninsulas for travel reasons in many sports. (weather is an issue for X-C). This is actually a reduction in X-C as they use to have separate races for teams and individuals. So, before 2000's there were 14 individual runners claiming a state championship, now its only 7 as team and individuals run in one race per division and/or Peninsula.

Can't understand why the UP doesn't join the Track&Field finals, as it would be perfect for their UP championships being a qualifying for the Finals. As the number of teams is almost the same as any other Regional meet and typically the LP state meet is the last week of school.
Jnathletics
 
Posts: 2213
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Cross Country Mudville

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby DrJay » Sat Oct 26, 2013 3:39 pm

So much for my rant....Bailey Roth finished 17th in the 4A, 50 seconds off the win. Geberkindane won the 5A in a course record 15:48 with second 41 seconds back. It's a tough course. Elise Cranny ran away with the girls 4A race, 18:08, a course record by 9 seconds. Sophomore Katie Rainsberger was second in 18:47 (her mom is Lisa Larsen Rainsberger, last US woman to win Boston, in 1985, and she won Chicago in 1988 and 1989.)

http://chsaanow.com/2013-10-26/state-cr ... l-results/
DrJay
 
Posts: 5483
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Woodland Park, CO

Re: Do away with different classes in HS XC

Postby Gebrucilassie » Thu Oct 31, 2013 8:38 am

gh wrote:how many states (even roughly) have a no-class system?


Haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if anyone has mentioned it yet. But in N.J. they have all of the group Champs one week followed by the "Meet of Champions" of all the top placers from the different groups. This allows the best of the best to compete at the end of the season. I think more states should follow this system.
Having spent the last 20 plus years in Florida and not seeing top match ups I do miss that format :(
Gebrucilassie
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:57 pm


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot], jazzcyclist, meninblack and 9 guests