a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread


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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:37 pm

In 1972 Mary Decker ran

800 - 2:12.1y
1500 - 4:35.9

Superb times for a 13-year-old, but not even national-class.

It was in 1973 that she broke out with her 2:02.43 800.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:54 pm

Marlow wrote:In 1972 Mary Decker ran

800 - 2:12.1y
1500 - 4:35.9

Superb times for a 13-year-old, but not even national-class.

It was in 1973 that she broke out with her 2:02.43 800.


Good to know! Thanks Marlow, so internet myth is alive and well. Where did you come by that info?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:07 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Where did you come by that info?

I looked in the back of an old TAC Annual - there's a year-by-year career recap of stars.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:46 pm

ATK wrote:If I was a college coach, I probably wouldn't show interest in offering her a scholarship. Its almost certain she won't run a full 4 years before going pro, so why not offer the opportunity to someone I know will stay and I could actually develop.


I think that this is off on the incentives. If she does one year and you get two NCAA titles from her, you yield Titles/Scholarship Years is probably the best in history (better than Lawi's).
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby tandfman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:03 pm

One problem with this thinking is that her freshman year is also the year of the next World Championships. I suspect her focus that year is going to be on qualifying for the US team and doing well in Beijing. Yes, she probably could do that while competing for a college team that year, but I very much doubt that she or Mr. Salazar would think that doubling at the NCAA meet would be consistent with her more important objectives for the season.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby skyin' brian » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:17 am

26mi235 wrote:
ATK wrote:If I was a college coach, I probably wouldn't show interest in offering her a scholarship. Its almost certain she won't run a full 4 years before going pro, so why not offer the opportunity to someone I know will stay and I could actually develop.


I think that this is off on the incentives. If she does one year and you get two NCAA titles from her, you yield Titles/Scholarship Years is probably the best in history (better than Lawi's).


What about a non-scholarship athlete that won a title (or someone just on free books or something)?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:04 pm

Has everybody read the front page article on Alana Hadley, the 16 year old junior from a Charlotte NC high school?
I'm mentioning Hadley in this thread because, like Cain, she is running against the elites (Well, at least in the same races!!), while foregoing HS track and CC competition.
And, according to the article, she (with her dad's apparent approval!) has said she will NOT compete for her college team.....whichever one she chooses.....but will instead focus on the marathon, trying to qualify for the 2016 OT race.
She ran the Cleveland marathon in 2:58:24, her first one, but was on 2:45 pace through halfway, but injured herself on a curb at mile 14, and just finished the race.
She's recently brought her half-marathon best down to 1:16:41
The only track credential she has is a 34:59 10K from 2012, 2nd on the 2012 list to Cayla Hatton's 33:17. (Hadley was about 3 or 4 years younger than Hatton then!!)
The article also states she's accepted prize money already, which would, of course, make her ineligible for college track anyway!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby gh » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:33 pm

sigh.... another overworked youngster due to flame out long before it should happen.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:36 pm

aaronk wrote:Has everybody read the front page article on Alana Hadley, the 16 year old junior from a Charlotte NC high school?

Made me look.

These two sentences give me pause . . .

Three years later and now a junior at Ardrey Kell High School in Charlotte, N.C., the 16-year-old Hadley is making strides in hopes of lining up against the likes of Flanagan and Goucher at the 2016 U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials. . . . Running between 100 and 110 miles a week, Alana is eager to race her next marathon in Indianapolis.


100+ mpw at 16 . . . she is a minor, which means her parents ARE responsible for her actions. Maybe she really is that one-in-a-100-million kid whose adolescent body thrives on such 'stress' or . . . maybe not. I have no 'judgement' here, but I have my worries.

edit - I see that as I was composing this, gh had similar misgivings.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:15 pm

Her dad is her coach, according to the article.
And she says she runs better the longer the distance, so it appears to be her choice to focus on the marathon.
I just hope she doesn't abandon track altogether.
The two women she said she wants to be like, Flanagan and Goucher, still both run track races, as well as marathons.
And Hadley holds the frosh class record for the 10K, with her 34:59.38 from 2012.
Hopefully, she'll run some 10K's on the track, as well as a 5K or 2 while still in HS.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:20 pm

Her father/coach should be telling her to be a kid.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:26 pm

JumboElliott wrote:Her father/coach should be telling her to be a kid.


With both parents being former (and current??) athletes, it's probably pretty rare for a child of athletes to insist she or he would rather be a pianist or a doctor or a writer!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby James Fields » Wed Sep 18, 2013 7:54 am

re Mary Decker, Marlow wrote:
It was in 1973 that she broke out with her 2:02.43 800

Source: an old TAC Annual
_______________

The 1975 AAU Official Handbook showed for M. Decker three American Indoor Records:

800m - 2:01.8 at San Diego - Feb. 17, 1974
880 yd 2:02.4 at San Diego - Feb. 17, 1974
1000 yd 2:26.7 at Los Angeles - Jan. 19, 1974
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:04 am

James Fields wrote:re Mary Decker, Marlow wrote:
It was in 1973 that she broke out with her 2:02.43 800

Source: an old TAC Annual
The 1975 AAU Official Handbook showed for M. Decker three American Indoor Records:
800m - 2:01.8 at San Diego - Feb. 17, 1974
880 yd 2:02.4 at San Diego - Feb. 17, 1974
1000 yd 2:26.7 at Los Angeles - Jan. 19, 1974

I'm thinking the 800 time given by TAC was unconverted (880y>800m), or was she actually timed at 800m, which would make the TAC Annual 'wrong'.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby gh » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:05 am

Decker was timed at both 800m and 880y
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:35 am

gh wrote:Decker was timed at both 800m and 880y

Bad TAC!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby gh » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:36 am

what's bad? there were two sets of timers and she got ARs for each distance.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:39 am

gh wrote:what's bad? there were two sets of timers and she got ARs for each distance.

The TAC Annual lists her 800 time as her 880 time (no 880 given).
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Sep 18, 2013 10:52 am

James Fields wrote:re Mary Decker, Marlow wrote:
It was in 1973 that she broke out with her 2:02.43 800

Source: an old TAC Annual
_______________

The 1975 AAU Official Handbook showed for M. Decker three American Indoor Records:

800m - 2:01.8 at San Diego - Feb. 17, 1974
880 yd 2:02.4 at San Diego - Feb. 17, 1974
1000 yd 2:26.7 at Los Angeles - Jan. 19, 1974


Pretty amazing for a 15 year old!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby br » Wed Sep 18, 2013 11:59 am

James Fields wrote:re Mary Decker, Marlow wrote:
It was in 1973 that she broke out with her 2:02.43 800

Source: an old TAC Annual
_______________

The 1975 AAU Official Handbook showed for M. Decker three American Indoor Records:

800m - 2:01.8 at San Diego - Feb. 17, 1974
880 yd 2:02.4 at San Diego - Feb. 17, 1974
1000 yd 2:26.7 at Los Angeles - Jan. 19, 1974

According to this site, http://age-records.125mb.com/, that 2:02.43 is still the age 14 world 800m record. The 2:01.8 is the age 15 record and she also has the age 14 mile record (4:40.1).

14 2:02.43 Mary Decker USA 4 Aug 58 Munich 12 Jul 73
15 2:01.8 i Mary Decker USA 4 Aug 58 San Diego CA 17 Feb 74
14 4:40.1 i Mary Decker USA 4 Aug 58 Richmond VA 16 Mar 73
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:45 pm

The above source is excellent!
Thanx for the link!
But......those are NOT "world" records or bests.
The African nations are NOT included. (Note that they say their "records" cover just 48 nations!!)

I keep age records, though mine start at age 17. (Though it's actually listed as "17 & under"!)
And I know for a fact that most of those marks listed from 800 through 10K are NOT "World" bests!!
The Africans own most of those!!

But thanks again for the link!!
I'll take a LOT of time perusing it!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:10 pm

aaronk wrote:The above source is excellent!
Thanx for the link!
But......those are NOT "world" records or bests.
The African nations are NOT included. (Note that they say their "records" cover just 48 nations!!)

I keep age records, though mine start at age 17. (Though it's actually listed as "17 & under"!)
And I know for a fact that most of those marks listed from 800 through 10K are NOT "World" bests!!
The Africans own most of those!!

But thanks again for the link!!
I'll take a LOT of time perusing it!!


Just out of curiosity Aaronk, can you list who has done better than the 2:02 as a 14 year old or 2:01 as a 15 year old?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:47 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
aaronk wrote:The above source is excellent!
Thanx for the link!
But......those are NOT "world" records or bests.
The African nations are NOT included. (Note that they say their "records" cover just 48 nations!!)

I keep age records, though mine start at age 17. (Though it's actually listed as "17 & under"!)
And I know for a fact that most of those marks listed from 800 through 10K are NOT "World" bests!!
The Africans own most of those!!

But thanks again for the link!!
I'll take a LOT of time perusing it!!


Just out of curiosity Aaronk, can you list who has done better than the 2:02 as a 14 year old or 2:01 as a 15 year old?


My age records begin at age 17.
But HS Track lists HS age records from age 14.

The OUTdoor age 14 800 mark for girls is listed as 2:02.43 by Mary Decker in 1973.
The age 15 OUTdoor mark is listed as 2:02.29, also by Decker....in 1974.
Jack Shepard doesn't list age records for INdoor, but he does have class marks.
The Frosh class mark is listed as 2:06.48 by Devon Williams from 2004.
Decker's 2:01.8 (The 2:02.4 880 mark is NOT listed!!) from 1974 is listed as the Soph class record.

I have no idea if an African (or....??) has run faster at those ages....but my guess is, they have NOT.
2:02 for a girl at 14 or 15 is pretty damn impressive!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:16 pm

aaronk wrote:The OUTdoor age 14 800 mark for girls is listed as 2:02.43 by Mary Decker in 1973.
The age 15 OUTdoor mark is listed as 2:02.29, also by Decker....in 1974.
Jack Shepard doesn't list age records for INdoor, but he does have class marks.
The Frosh class mark is listed as 2:06.48 by Devon Williams from 2004.
Decker's 2:01.8 (The 2:02.4 880 mark is NOT listed!!) from 1974 is listed as the Soph class record.

I have no idea if an African (or....??) has run faster at those ages....but my guess is, they have NOT.
2:02 for a girl at 14 or 15 is pretty damn impressive!!


The point being that unless someone else in the world can come up with a proven verifiable mark that those are world bests. These marks are superior for the age, imo to what Mary Cain did this year. American Records as a 14/15 year old? It is too bad Mary D had those injury problems because it would have been nice to see what she could have done at 16/17.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:30 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
aaronk wrote:The OUTdoor age 14 800 mark for girls is listed as 2:02.43 by Mary Decker in 1973.
The age 15 OUTdoor mark is listed as 2:02.29, also by Decker....in 1974.
Jack Shepard doesn't list age records for INdoor, but he does have class marks.
The Frosh class mark is listed as 2:06.48 by Devon Williams from 2004.
Decker's 2:01.8 (The 2:02.4 880 mark is NOT listed!!) from 1974 is listed as the Soph class record.

I have no idea if an African (or....??) has run faster at those ages....but my guess is, they have NOT.
2:02 for a girl at 14 or 15 is pretty damn impressive!!


The point being that unless someone else in the world can come up with a proven verifiable mark that those are world bests. These marks are superior for the age, imo to what Mary Cain did this year. American Records as a 14/15 year old? It is too bad Mary D had those injury problems because it would have been nice to see what she could have done at 16/17.


Taking absolutely NOTHING away from Mary Slaney (Decker!), in 1973 and 1974, there weren't very many girls (or WOMEN!!) running 800's seriously.
So it was easier to set world or collegiate or high school records for girls in those days.
Title IX had just been passed the year before (1972), so Mary D was on the cutting edge of the development of girl's track in the US as a frosh and soph in HS.

And yes, Decker's times as a 14 and 15 year old ARE more impressive than Cain's mark as a 17 year old, but it must be said that Decker didn't break 2:00 until her 20's, I believe (due to injuries, etc), so Cain's mark holds a LOT of weight too!!

(God, I wish they could have raced against each other!! One of those magical duels of one era against another every fan dreams of!!)
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Sep 18, 2013 5:55 pm

aaronk wrote:Taking absolutely NOTHING away from Mary Slaney (Decker!), in 1973 and 1974, there weren't very many girls (or WOMEN!!) running 800's seriously.
So it was easier to set world or collegiate or high school records for girls in those days.
Title IX had just been passed the year before (1972), so Mary D was on the cutting edge of the development of girl's track in the US as a frosh and soph in HS.

And yes, Decker's times as a 14 and 15 year old ARE more impressive than Cain's mark as a 17 year old, but it must be said that Decker didn't break 2:00 until her 20's, I believe (due to injuries, etc), so Cain's mark holds a LOT of weight too!!

(God, I wish they could have raced against each other!! One of those magical duels of one era against another every fan dreams of!!)


Yes, you can argue the records were easier then to break than they are today but that is a given and apply to every event as the bar continually gets raised. But I think people also tend to forget how good some of those from that era were. Not just good but amazing! The stopwatch does not lie!! I never thought in my lifetime I would ever see another American like Mary Decker so I am glad we now have Cain. I certainly hope she can reach the level of her predecessor. I still have a lot of doubts about that and hope to be wrong. On the plus side is a coach who at seems to make a concerted effort to prevent athletes from burnout and overtraining, and still knows how to get them to their very best as well.

We hear now that Shannon Rowbury will be training with Salazar so another great athlete for her to train with from time to time.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:45 pm

Marlow wrote:
aaronk wrote:Has everybody read the front page article on Alana Hadley, the 16 year old junior from a Charlotte NC high school?

Made me look.

These two sentences give me pause . . .

Three years later and now a junior at Ardrey Kell High School in Charlotte, N.C., the 16-year-old Hadley is making strides in hopes of lining up against the likes of Flanagan and Goucher at the 2016 U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials. . . . Running between 100 and 110 miles a week, Alana is eager to race her next marathon in Indianapolis.


100+ mpw at 16 . . . she is a minor, which means her parents ARE responsible for her actions. Maybe she really is that one-in-a-100-million kid whose adolescent body thrives on such 'stress' or . . . maybe not. I have no 'judgement' here, but I have my worries.

edit - I see that as I was composing this, gh had similar misgivings.



Hadley won the women's race at the Salem Lake 30K today in Winston-Salem NC.
She ran 1:59:13, with just 2 guys finishing ahead of her, and 2nd woman (age 33!!) about 4 minutes behind her!!
Her time is 3rd A-T on the course, and this race has been run for 20 or more years!!

Great prep for her upcoming marathon!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby bruce3404 » Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:12 pm

FWIW, Mary Cain was at the Dellinger X-C meet today in Springfield, OR. She spent the day hanging around with other Duck athletes, some of whom she seemed to know quite well. Read into that what you wish. HS JR Alexa Efraimson shocked the women's field by taking first over a strong group of Washington Huskies, among them Katie Flood.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:03 am

bruce3404 wrote:FWIW, Mary Cain was at the Dellinger X-C meet today in Springfield, OR. She spent the day hanging around with other Duck athletes, some of whom she seemed to know quite well. Read into that what you wish. HS JR Alexa Efraimson shocked the women's field by taking first over a strong group of Washington Huskies, among them Katie Flood.


Just curious, but does her 4.2 GPA and elite athlete status give Ms Cain special dispensation to miss chunks of classroom time at Bronxville HS??

I wasn't a star athlete, and my GPA was about HALF what Ms Cain's is, but JEEZ!!!!......if I was just LATE to class ONCE, I was threatened with all sorts of punishments!!

What gives, Mary??

Or more accurately, what gives, Bronxvulle HS Administrators????


ADD:
I got more to add to this little rant!!
Why did she fly all the way across the country (at her parent's expense!!!)....and not race?????

As for her knowing some UO athletes, it's not surprising.
In London (and I assume Moscow), she was very close with Jordan Hasay, very recent UO graduate!!
I'm sure Jordan introduced her to her former teammates!!
Not to mention, she may have met some of them while at the Pre meet!!
And her coach is Alberto Salazar!
And one of his athletes if former Duck Galen Rupp!!

Bottom line: Don't read anything nefarious or headline-making into Mary's little visit to Duck territory.......except for the fact she was playing hooky from her school!!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby unclezadok » Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:34 am

bruce3404 wrote:FWIW, Mary Cain was at the Dellinger X-C meet today in Springfield, OR. She spent the day hanging around with other Duck athletes, some of whom she seemed to know quite well. Read into that what you wish. HS JR Alexa Efraimson shocked the women's field by taking first over a strong group of Washington Huskies, among them Katie Flood.


Efraimson is the greatest high school runner since...2013!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Sun Oct 06, 2013 10:46 am

Has any one considered that Mary Cain may want to graduate early (Dec., 2013), and do a semester of college athletics, in a non-championship year.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby KevinM » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:33 pm

aaronk wrote:Just curious, but does her 4.2 GPA and elite athlete status give Ms Cain special dispensation to miss chunks of classroom time at Bronxville HS??

I wasn't a star athlete, and my GPA was about HALF what Ms Cain's is, but JEEZ!!!!......if I was just LATE to class ONCE, I was threatened with all sorts of punishments!!

What gives, Mary??

Or more accurately, what gives, Bronxvulle HS Administrators????


ADD:
I got more to add to this little rant!!
Why did she fly all the way across the country (at her parent's expense!!!)....and not race?????



Is!!!

It!!!!

Possible!!!

She!!!!

Was!!!

On!!!

a

Recruiting!!!

Trip????!??????

(and why is any of this your damn business?)
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby bruce3404 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:45 pm

KevinM wrote:


Is!!!

It!!!!

Possible!!!

She!!!!

Was!!!

On!!!

a

Recruiting!!!

Trip????!??????



It sure looked like it; assuming it's the same sort of thing they do with basketball and football players....show 'em around, take 'em to a meet, let them meet some potential team mates. She seemed to be having a good time, whatever the reason for her attendance.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:07 pm

According to a Tweet by Chris Nickinson, it WAS a recruiting trip!!
Hmmmmmm!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby tandfman » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:35 pm

You mean Oregon is recruiting Mary Cain? I'm shocked, shocked!!!! :)
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:42 pm

Well, after she shatters EVERY Collegiate Record, indoors from 800 to 5000, and outdoors from 800 to 10000....what will she do her SOPHOMORE year?? :P
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby KevinM » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:52 pm

aaronk wrote:According to a Tweet by Chris Nickinson, it WAS a recruiting trip!!
Hmmmmmm!


This is your response to learning this information? Not, "man, did I come off like a crazed jackass in that last post"?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby KevinM » Sun Oct 06, 2013 2:54 pm

bruce3404 wrote:; assuming it's the same sort of thing they do with basketball and football players....show 'em around, take 'em to a meet, let them meet some potential team mates.


Yes - same deal, with comparatively fewer thrills. It's something a few thousand kids per weekend will be doing nationwide each weekend from now through late winter. Unless the parameters have changed recently, each kid gets expenses-paid to visit up to 5 schools for 48 hours.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Daisy » Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:52 pm

aaronk wrote:Bottom line: Don't read anything nefarious or headline-making into Mary's little visit to Duck territory.......except for the fact she was playing hooky from her school!!!

I thought you were a fan? And why would any HS care about a 4.2 student missing a few classes?
Last edited by Daisy on Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:45 pm

aaronk wrote:
bruce3404 wrote:FWIW, Mary Cain was at the Dellinger X-C meet today in Springfield, OR. She spent the day hanging around with other Duck athletes, some of whom she seemed to know quite well. Read into that what you wish. HS JR Alexa Efraimson shocked the women's field by taking first over a strong group of Washington Huskies, among them Katie Flood.


Just curious, but does her 4.2 GPA and elite athlete status give Ms Cain special dispensation to miss chunks of classroom time at Bronxville HS??

I wasn't a star athlete, and my GPA was about HALF what Ms Cain's is, but JEEZ!!!!......if I was just LATE to class ONCE, I was threatened with all sorts of punishments!!

What gives, Mary??

Or more accurately, what gives, Bronxvulle HS Administrators????


ADD:
I got more to add to this little rant!!
Why did she fly all the way across the country (at her parent's expense!!!)....and not race?????

As for her knowing some UO athletes, it's not surprising.
In London (and I assume Moscow), she was very close with Jordan Hasay, very recent UO graduate!!
I'm sure Jordan introduced her to her former teammates!!
Not to mention, she may have met some of them while at the Pre meet!!
And her coach is Alberto Salazar!
And one of his athletes if former Duck Galen Rupp!!

Bottom line: Don't read anything nefarious or headline-making into Mary's little visit to Duck territory.......except for the fact she was playing hooky from her school!!!


Presuming a recruiting trip....official or otherwise....it's an excused absence which should answer about 95% of the nonsense in this post.
Dutra5
 
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