a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread


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a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:26 pm

Did you understand this thread's title?
I meant that this thread will use Mary Cain as its example, but the subject could be about ANY track athlete with the record Mary Cain possesses at age 17.

The front page article tells us she's considering about 8 colleges, and that Salazar will offer his advice, if asked.
This tells me that Cain IS going to attend college, but doesn't give much clarity as to whether she'll compete in collegiate races, as a member of her selected college's team!!
So the question becomes:
What are the pro's (pun sort of intended! :P ) or con's of such a scenario?

Pro's
1. She'll be a member of a team again!
2. The camaraderie of being a team member, the friendships, the team workouts, etc.
3. Being able to break EVERY Collegiate Record from 800 through 5000 in her freshman year!!
4. Probably having a deal wherein Salazar can continue to be her coach!
5. Being able to run in "elite" meets (DL's, Stanford, Oxy, Boston & Millrose indoor) as well as collegiate meets, but allowing her to limit her collegiate races.

Con's
1. So good, there would be limited, if no, competition in her collegiate races, except possibly at the NCAA's!
2. Possible jealousy of team members who don't like her "elite" status.
3. She'd most likely be working out with NOP women rather than her collegiate teammates, so "team" feeling wouldn't be as strong.
4. What REAL use to her team would she offer?? How many team points would she score?
5. There would always be the doubt that she would REMAIN a team member! "Will she turn Pro tomorrow??"

I guess these considerations have been discussed before, but I'm hoping you believe I've offered up some different approaches......and questions...about a possible collegiate racing career for Mary Cain.....or people like her!!

Have at it!! :D
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:05 am

aaronk wrote:The front page article tells us she's considering about 8 colleges, and that Salazar will offer his advice, if asked.

Vegas odds:
Oregon - 1:5
Stanford - 5:1
the field - 99:1
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby athleticshushmail » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:33 am

aaronk wrote:Probably having a deal wherein Salazar can continue to be her coach!
5. Being able to run in "elite" meets (DL's, Stanford, Oxy, Boston & Millrose indoor) as well as collegiate meets, but allowing her to limit her collegiate races.
:D

I really enjoy watching Mary Cain race, but I don't understand the concept of her running in the Diamond League while in college. What if she wins a Diamond league race, there would be prize money there. Wouldn't that be a violation of NCAA rules?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby tandfman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:29 am

athleticshushmail wrote:I really enjoy watching Mary Cain race, but I don't understand the concept of her running in the Diamond League while in college. What if she wins a Diamond league race, there would be prize money there. Wouldn't that be a violation of NCAA rules?

Not if she doesn't accept the money.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby tandfman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 5:32 am

Marlow wrote:
aaronk wrote:The front page article tells us she's considering about 8 colleges, and that Salazar will offer his advice, if asked.

Vegas odds:
Oregon - 1:5
Stanford - 5:1
the field - 99:1

Vegas would be out of business if they posted those odds. I think there's an excellent chance that she'll choose an Ivy League school or the equivalent in the East and stay closer to home than she would be at either Oregon or Stanford. Then she could easily choose not run for her school's team, as she's now doing in high school.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby gh » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:12 am

yeah, I note there's nothing said about whether or not her college choice is linked in any way to for whom she will run. My totally uninformed guess would be that she never runs a competitive step in the uniform of any university.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Daisy » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:18 am

gh wrote:yeah, I note there's nothing said about whether or not her college choice is linked in any way to for whom she will run. My totally uninformed guess would be that she never runs a competitive step in the uniform of any university.

Meaning she'd be fresh for the summer campaigns and have time to study when in college. Sounds like a win-win for her.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby ExRun » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:28 am

tandfman wrote:
Marlow wrote:
aaronk wrote:The front page article tells us she's considering about 8 colleges, and that Salazar will offer his advice, if asked.

Vegas odds:
Oregon - 1:5
Stanford - 5:1
the field - 99:1

Vegas would be out of business if they posted those odds. I think there's an excellent chance that she'll choose an Ivy League school or the equivalent in the East and stay closer to home than she would be at either Oregon or Stanford. Then she could easily choose not run for her school's team, as she's now doing in high school.


I agree. I think she goes to Princeton. Her personality is such that she always goes for the top...athletics or academics. I will be surprised if she goes to Oregon. For the first two years I could see her just running on the XC team and running Invitational Track meets the rest of the year and then going Pro after that.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:34 am

tandfman wrote:Vegas would be out of business if they posted those odds. I think there's an excellent chance that she'll choose an Ivy League school or the equivalent in the East and stay closer to home than she would be at either Oregon or Stanford. Then she could easily choose not run for her school's team, as she's now doing in high school.


gh wrote:yeah, I note there's nothing said about whether or not her college choice is linked in any way to for whom she will run. My totally uninformed guess would be that she never runs a competitive step in the uniform of any university.

That's the $64K Q, isn't it? Will she run for the college she attends? Will she try to be near home, or near Salazar?
My even more totally uninformed guess is that she goes west (hence the Vegas odds) and DOES run for the college, at least for the first year. There's absolutely ZERO guarantee that she'll ever run ONE SECOND faster than she did/does as a HSer. Everyone knows that, so why not get situated in a place near your coach and see how it goes? If she continues to improve in 2014-15, THEN you can leave the team, transfer any where you wish and finish college as a professional runner. Just from what I know about the parents, I do not think they are steering her to go pro this young.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:37 am

ExRun wrote:
tandfman wrote:
Marlow wrote:
aaronk wrote:The front page article tells us she's considering about 8 colleges, and that Salazar will offer his advice, if asked.

Vegas odds:
Oregon - 1:5
Stanford - 5:1
the field - 99:1

Vegas would be out of business if they posted those odds. I think there's an excellent chance that she'll choose an Ivy League school or the equivalent in the East and stay closer to home than she would be at either Oregon or Stanford. Then she could easily choose not run for her school's team, as she's now doing in high school.


I agree. I think she goes to Princeton. Her personality is such that she always goes for the top...athletics or academics. I will be surprised if she goes to Oregon. For the first two years I could see her just running on the XC team and running Invitational Track meets the rest of the year and then going Pro after that.


I don't know what her level of interest is in running cross country.......in high school or college....or even professionally!
She ran some CC in 2012 (losing to Sarah Baxter!!), but that was BEFORE she went on her record-breaking rampage, and reached a level that put her on the WC team!!
She's basically an 800-1 mile runner now....with a couple of longer races thrown in (the indoor 2 mile and the outdoor 5K).
If she chooses to continue with her TRACK career at the same level as she reached in 2013, I would think CC would extend her season too long, and take away from her success on the track!!
The article even said she'll be working on her form, and readying for an "extensive" indoor campaign!!
That sounds like there will be no cross country this year!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:50 am

aaronk wrote:I don't know what her level of interest is in running cross country.......in high school or college....or even professionally!
She ran some CC in 2012 (losing to Sarah Baxter!!)

Baxter is the prototypical CC runner - great strength (could be a Steepler on the track)
Cain is the prototypical track runner - great tempo and kick.
CC for Cain is a great strength builder, even if it's not her 'strength' (unintentional word-play).
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby ATK » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:35 am

If I was a college coach, I probably wouldn't show interest in offering her a scholarship. Its almost certain she won't run a full 4 years before going pro, so why not offer the opportunity to someone I know will stay and I could actually develop.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:46 am

ATK wrote:why not offer the opportunity to someone I know will stay and I could actually develop.


All sorts of reasons!
1. No need to 'develop' Cain.
2. If Cain leaves, that frees up the scholarship for a new person.
3. While you do have Cain, she'll represent your school very well.
4. Her presence will attract other top runners.
5. Boosters will come out of the woodwork to contribute to your (suddenly high-profile) team.
6. You'll look like a great coach for having brought her to your campus.
etc., etc.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby gh » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:51 am

Cain is also likely to score more points in one year than any "prospect" would in 4, and could be the difference in winning a national title (and that's in all 3 phases of the sport).

On the list of priorities for college coaches, "developing talent" isn't even in the same ball park as the mandate to score points at the Conference/Regional/National level. It's what keeps them their jobs in most places. (unfortunately)
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:03 am

gh wrote: "developing talent" isn't even in the same ball park as the mandate to score points at the Conference/Regional/National level.

Hence the giving away of hard-to-get scholarships to foreign students who are already developed and can win big points right away. Many a great college coach has been seduced to the Dark Side of foreign recruiting, preferring to get older foreign ringers than give a promising young American prospect the time to develop. When I am annointed Despot-for-Life in charge of the NCAA, foreign athletes may still be recruited, but they will score zero points at the Conference and NCAA level. Then we see how how much the lip-service for "international diversity" is worth.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:47 am

I'm going to focus on one aspect of Cain running for a college for a minute.......what I listed as #3 in the "pro" column of my initial post.....her being able to break every Collegiate Record in her freshman year.

Indoor
800 (2:00.75).......She ran 1:59.51 as an 11th grader in HS!!

1000 (2:41.00).....Cain ran 2:47 as a 10th grader! A 2:40 entails passing 800 in 2:08, then running a 32 last 200. Think she can do it??

1500 (4:10.20)......How many times has she run under 4:10.....as an 11th grader??

1 mile (4:25.91)....A bit more difficult, this Simpson mark! But it's just a 4:08 1500 pace!!

3000 (8:42.03).....The best indoor Simpson mark! But I felt Cain was ready to go under 8:40 this past summer! I still believe that!! And 16-18 months from now (if she runs for a college indoors), she might be ready to tackle the OUTdoor AR of 8:25!!

5000 (15:14.18)...I know there are some who believe Jenny's 15:01 Seattle 5K should be honored as the CR....or at least the A-T Collegiate Best....but not moi!!! Thus, Cain's target, IMHO, would be Kim Smith's 15:14. Cain's 15:45 at the PTF was a training run. She can run 15:00. This record would go!

Outdoor
800 (1:59.11)....Before her run at Pre, Salazar had told her she was capable of running 1:58. Enough said!

1500 (3:59.90).....Not including the 1000 here, as it's rarely, if ever, run outdoors at the Collegiate level. But Simpson's CR in the 1500 would be Cain's toughest target. However, this mark was an outlier! Seconf best Collegiate mark is Hannah England's 4:06.19!! There was SOME consensus that Cain has sub-4 abilities. By 2015, Mary Slaney's AR could be in jeopardy!! At worst, Cain's current PR puts her 2nd A-T collegiate!!

1 mile (4:29.04)....She's already run faster!

3000 (8:47.35).....An easy mark, considering she would probably break the better indoor mark first!!

5000 (15:07.64).....Yet another Simpson mark for Cain to shoot for!! (See my comment for the indoor 5K.)

So, bottom line, I just don't think these CR's would be much of a motivator or reason for Cain to race collegiately!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby JumboElliott » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:48 am

gh wrote:yeah, I note there's nothing said about whether or not her college choice is linked in any way to for whom she will run. My totally uninformed guess would be that she never runs a competitive step in the uniform of any university.

I've gotten this impression too, and I hope she goes this route. A college coach would run someone with her range into the ground.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby KevinM » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:09 pm

JumboElliott wrote:A college coach would run someone with her range into the ground.


This seems unlikely. Obviously the decision for Cain to run in college (or not) would be heavily predicated on the level of cooperation between the college program and Salazar (as with Rupp/Salazar/Lanana - and Rupp was not nearly at Cain's level when he entered UO). In fact, didn't the SI article a few months ago mention that more than one coach (including Saretsky at Harvard?) had approached the Cain Camp to discuss their willingness to participate in such an arrangement?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby booond » Thu Sep 12, 2013 12:18 pm

aaronk wrote:
So, bottom line, I just don't think these CR's would be much of a motivator or reason for Cain to race collegiately!!


This is correct. Even at the college level, if she remains healthy, it's a mismatch against her competition.

Best for her, as an athlete, would be to continue running with Salazar's group or a group of similar talents. Best for her as a person... who knows.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby lonewolf » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:22 pm

Has there previously been an athlete deemed by so many to be "too good" to run in college? :?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Daisy » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:51 pm

lonewolf wrote:Has there previously been an athlete deemed by so many to be "too good" to run in college? :?

Tianna Madison gave up her eligibility as she was too good.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:52 pm

lonewolf wrote:Has there previously been an athlete deemed by so many to be "too good" to run in college? :?


Excellent question!
Two answers.

1. No one I can think of offhand whose HS marks (indoors or outdoors) were better than, or even close enough to threaten, the CR's of their day.
I'm thinking mainly of Ryun and Lindgren and Felix.

2. There was no professional track back then (for Ryun and Lindgren----Felix went pro!!), so collegiate track was their best racing outlet, as it at least provided a scholarship!!

Jordan Hasay was the precursor to Cain, but her 4:14.50 was behind several collegians, and that time was run as an 11th grader, and she didn't improve as a 12th grader.
Mary Slaney, like Ryun and Lindgren, didn't have pro track to consider.

So I really can't think of anyone who fits the position Cain now holds (with the strong possibility she'll be even faster before she'd be ready to enter college!).
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby gh » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:07 pm

Daisy wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Has there previously been an athlete deemed by so many to be "too good" to run in college? :?

Tianna Madison gave up her eligibility as she was too good.


methinks the question being asked was not about those collegians who turned pro early, but those HSers who skipped college altogether.

Obviously it's not a concept that has much in the way of historical underpinning, because going pro wasn't an option until the '80s, and the shoe companies for many years after that had an unwritten rule about not signing collegians prematurely.

Can't remember when the dam broke on that last part.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:11 pm

aaronk wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Has there previously been an athlete deemed by so many to be "too good" to run in college? :?


Excellent question!
Two answers.

1. No one I can think of offhand whose HS marks (indoors or outdoors) were better than, or even close enough to threaten, the CR's of their day.
I'm thinking mainly of Ryun and Lindgren and Felix.

2. There was no professional track back then (for Ryun and Lindgren----Felix went pro!!), so collegiate track was their best racing outlet, as it at least provided a scholarship!!

Jordan Hasay was the precursor to Cain, but her 4:14.50 was behind several collegians, and that time was run as an 11th grader, and she didn't improve as a 12th grader.
Mary Slaney, like Ryun and Lindgren, didn't have pro track to consider.

So I really can't think of anyone who fits the position Cain now holds (with the strong possibility she'll be even faster before she'd be ready to enter college!).


Wasn't Mary Decker world class as a teen and too young to be allowed to compete in the Olympics? As a matter of fact, didn't she hold a world indoor record at an age younger than Mary Cain is now?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby gh » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:38 pm

Slaney didn't come onto the scene until '73, and in '76 she was 17 at the time of Montréal (and 18 a few weeks later), so she was never aged-out, no.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby lonewolf » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:39 pm

Daisy wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Has there previously been an athlete deemed by so many to be "too good" to run in college? :?

Tianna Madison gave up her eligibility as she was too good.

Yes, but she did compete for Univ Tenn.. I worked many of her meets as both a collegian and pro...she was good but not always invincible.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:52 pm

gh wrote:Slaney didn't come onto the scene until '73, and in '76 she was 17 at the time of Montréal (and 18 a few weeks later), so she was never aged-out, no.


Ok, I may be wrong but I read that she was highly ranked in the U.S. in 1972 but was ineligible to compete at the Olympic Trials, and thus did not make the team that went to Montreal when she very well may have been able to. Is that not correct? Where did she rank in 1972 as a 13/14 year old?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby booond » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:06 pm

lonewolf wrote:Has there previously been an athlete deemed by so many to be "too good" to run in college? :?


I'm not sure if Allyson Felix was deemed too good but she was running faster than the 2003 NCAA champs in the 200 while she was in high school. Her decision has worked out well.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby gh » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:21 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
gh wrote:Slaney didn't come onto the scene until '73, and in '76 she was 17 at the time of Montréal (and 18 a few weeks later), so she was never aged-out, no.


Ok, I may be wrong but I read that she was highly ranked in the U.S. in 1972 but was ineligible to compete at the Olympic Trials, and thus did not make the team that went to Montreal when she very well may have been able to. Is that not correct? Where did she rank in 1972 as a 13/14 year old?


My depth of knowledge of the women's side of the sport at that point is woefully inadequate, but I'm pretty sure that's urban myth.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:29 pm

gh wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:
gh wrote:Slaney didn't come onto the scene until '73, and in '76 she was 17 at the time of Montréal (and 18 a few weeks later), so she was never aged-out, no.


Ok, I may be wrong but I read that she was highly ranked in the U.S. in 1972 but was ineligible to compete at the Olympic Trials, and thus did not make the team that went to Montreal when she very well may have been able to. Is that not correct? Where did she rank in 1972 as a 13/14 year old?


My depth of knowledge of the women's side of the sport at that point is woefully inadequate, but I'm pretty sure that's urban myth.


Don't you have 1972 editions? NY times ran an article that states as much and several other places you can Google and read show it. I remember reading about this stuff in the 1970's and early 1980's.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:37 pm

In 1972 Mary Decker ran

800 - 2:12.1y
1500 - 4:35.9

Superb times for a 13-year-old, but not even national-class.

It was in 1973 that she broke out with her 2:02.43 800.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Sep 12, 2013 4:54 pm

Marlow wrote:In 1972 Mary Decker ran

800 - 2:12.1y
1500 - 4:35.9

Superb times for a 13-year-old, but not even national-class.

It was in 1973 that she broke out with her 2:02.43 800.


Good to know! Thanks Marlow, so internet myth is alive and well. Where did you come by that info?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 12, 2013 6:07 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Where did you come by that info?

I looked in the back of an old TAC Annual - there's a year-by-year career recap of stars.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:46 pm

ATK wrote:If I was a college coach, I probably wouldn't show interest in offering her a scholarship. Its almost certain she won't run a full 4 years before going pro, so why not offer the opportunity to someone I know will stay and I could actually develop.


I think that this is off on the incentives. If she does one year and you get two NCAA titles from her, you yield Titles/Scholarship Years is probably the best in history (better than Lawi's).
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby tandfman » Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:03 pm

One problem with this thinking is that her freshman year is also the year of the next World Championships. I suspect her focus that year is going to be on qualifying for the US team and doing well in Beijing. Yes, she probably could do that while competing for a college team that year, but I very much doubt that she or Mr. Salazar would think that doubling at the NCAA meet would be consistent with her more important objectives for the season.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby skyin' brian » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:17 am

26mi235 wrote:
ATK wrote:If I was a college coach, I probably wouldn't show interest in offering her a scholarship. Its almost certain she won't run a full 4 years before going pro, so why not offer the opportunity to someone I know will stay and I could actually develop.


I think that this is off on the incentives. If she does one year and you get two NCAA titles from her, you yield Titles/Scholarship Years is probably the best in history (better than Lawi's).


What about a non-scholarship athlete that won a title (or someone just on free books or something)?
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Mon Sep 16, 2013 2:04 pm

Has everybody read the front page article on Alana Hadley, the 16 year old junior from a Charlotte NC high school?
I'm mentioning Hadley in this thread because, like Cain, she is running against the elites (Well, at least in the same races!!), while foregoing HS track and CC competition.
And, according to the article, she (with her dad's apparent approval!) has said she will NOT compete for her college team.....whichever one she chooses.....but will instead focus on the marathon, trying to qualify for the 2016 OT race.
She ran the Cleveland marathon in 2:58:24, her first one, but was on 2:45 pace through halfway, but injured herself on a curb at mile 14, and just finished the race.
She's recently brought her half-marathon best down to 1:16:41
The only track credential she has is a 34:59 10K from 2012, 2nd on the 2012 list to Cayla Hatton's 33:17. (Hadley was about 3 or 4 years younger than Hatton then!!)
The article also states she's accepted prize money already, which would, of course, make her ineligible for college track anyway!!
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby gh » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:33 pm

sigh.... another overworked youngster due to flame out long before it should happen.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby Marlow » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:36 pm

aaronk wrote:Has everybody read the front page article on Alana Hadley, the 16 year old junior from a Charlotte NC high school?

Made me look.

These two sentences give me pause . . .

Three years later and now a junior at Ardrey Kell High School in Charlotte, N.C., the 16-year-old Hadley is making strides in hopes of lining up against the likes of Flanagan and Goucher at the 2016 U.S. Olympic Marathon Trials. . . . Running between 100 and 110 miles a week, Alana is eager to race her next marathon in Indianapolis.


100+ mpw at 16 . . . she is a minor, which means her parents ARE responsible for her actions. Maybe she really is that one-in-a-100-million kid whose adolescent body thrives on such 'stress' or . . . maybe not. I have no 'judgement' here, but I have my worries.

edit - I see that as I was composing this, gh had similar misgivings.
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Re: a NON-Mary Cain Mary Cain thread

Postby aaronk » Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:15 pm

Her dad is her coach, according to the article.
And she says she runs better the longer the distance, so it appears to be her choice to focus on the marathon.
I just hope she doesn't abandon track altogether.
The two women she said she wants to be like, Flanagan and Goucher, still both run track races, as well as marathons.
And Hadley holds the frosh class record for the 10K, with her 34:59.38 from 2012.
Hopefully, she'll run some 10K's on the track, as well as a 5K or 2 while still in HS.
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