Kim Collins competing for Ireland?


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Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby aaronk » Sun Jul 21, 2013 1:57 am

There's a story in the front page news section....just put up.....that says Collins is inquiring about competing for Ireland in Moscow!
St Kitts people say that if he's successful, they'll wish him the best.

Exit question: Is this the DUMBEST.......or ONE of the dumbest.....moves by a national sports federation...EVER??
St Kitts most famous athlete....maybe of all time!......being forced to leave his home country....just so he can compete in the WC!!
Think of all the positive publicity this popular athlete brings to St Kitts!!
And these dumb asses are just nonchalantly saying "Bye-bye, Best of luck to Ye!"???

If I were them, I'd change the rules.....FAST......and put him on the team.....like YESTERDAY!!!
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby norunner » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:49 am

Did you read the article? How is Collins going to compete for Ireland in Moscow if he is banned from competing at championsships for at least a year after switching?
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby aaronk » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:07 am

norunner wrote:Did you read the article? How is Collins going to compete for Ireland in Moscow if he is banned from competing at championships for at least a year after switching?


Yes, I read the article....and noted what you said.
Then why did it sound like he intends to compete THIS year....in Moscow?
In the first few sentences, it said (paraphrased) that he's exploring the option of competing for another country.....and that Ireland had invited him...and he was considering accepting their offer.
Only at the end of the article is the new law of the IAAF mentioned!!

So why even "explore".....or "invite"....if the law says NO??
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby norunner » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:23 am

aaronk wrote:
norunner wrote:Did you read the article? How is Collins going to compete for Ireland in Moscow if he is banned from competing at championships for at least a year after switching?


Yes, I read the article....and noted what you said.
Then why did it sound like he intends to compete THIS year....in Moscow?
In the first few sentences, it said (paraphrased) that he's exploring the option of competing for another country.....and that Ireland had invited him...and he was considering accepting their offer.
Only at the end of the article is the new law of the IAAF mentioned!!

So why even "explore".....or "invite"....if the law says NO??
You can explore the option of a vacation on Mars (doesn't mean you're going to get there), and while doing so you find out there may be obstacles, in Collins case, the obstacle he has yet to discover would be a one year ban.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby LopenUupunut » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:48 am

IAAF can waive the ineligibility if they wish, per IAAF rules 5.4(d)(ii) and (iii):
(ii) the period shall be cancelled if the athlete has completed three continuous
years of Residence in the Country (or Territory) of his new membership
immediately preceding the International Competition in question;

(iii) the period may be reduced or cancelled in exceptional cases by the Council. An application for a reduction or cancellation must be submitted by the relevant Member in writing to the IAAF Office at least 30 days before the International Competition in question
Aregawi, for instance, doesn't have to worry about a 1-year ineligibility. The World Champs will start 20 days from now though, and I doubt Collins has lived in Ireland for 3 years, so if these rules are applied strictly it's unlikely he will be in Moscow.
Last edited by LopenUupunut on Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:53 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby bambam » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:49 am

At least in the Olympics, where the ban after switching NOCs is 3 years, that time can be bypassed with the agreement of the two NOCs. In such a case, $ (or Euros or something) usually change hands to allow the athlete to represent the new NOC as soon as the transaction terms are agreed upon. In Collins' case, it is basically up to St. Kitts/Nevis and Ireland making a deal.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby Dixon » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:59 am

The Irish National 100m record is a sluggish...10.19...held by Paul Hesson.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby LopenUupunut » Sun Jul 21, 2013 4:01 am

bambam wrote:At least in the Olympics, where the ban after switching NOCs is 3 years, that time can be bypassed with the agreement of the two NOCs. In such a case, $ (or Euros or something) usually change hands to allow the athlete to represent the new NOC as soon as the transaction terms are agreed upon. In Collins' case, it is basically up to St. Kitts/Nevis and Ireland making a deal.
SKN and Ireland making a deal is the way to cut the ineligibility down to only 1 year in the first place. It's not enough to remove it completely.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby JumboElliott » Sun Jul 21, 2013 6:57 am

He should change his name to Kim Ó Coileáin if he does so.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby dustoff » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:10 am

Does anybody have a link to the transfer of allegiance rules in general?

They are quite confusing. For example, if an athlete has never represented a country, do they have to sit out? Or what about in Collins' case where he hasn't competed recently?
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby bambam » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:22 am

LopenUupunut wrote:SKN and Ireland making a deal is the way to cut the ineligibility down to only 1 year in the first place. It's not enough to remove it completely.


Maybe you're right but I thought if they agreed he could compete once the nations agreed on the deal.

As to allegiance rules, they differ from sport-to-sport - I know you want the athletics rules - I don't have that. Football (soccer) has a 1 nation for life rule - once you compete for a nation in FIFA matches, you can never change allegiance. Maybe not a bad thing given the athletic diaspora that now happens between every Olympics.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby LopenUupunut » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:06 am

dustoff wrote:Does anybody have a link to the transfer of allegiance rules in general?

They are quite confusing. For example, if an athlete has never represented a country, do they have to sit out? Or what about in Collins' case where he hasn't competed recently?
Here are the relevant eligibility rules: http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=68431829-23e2-4829-a7ca-d4e395f085f0.pdf&urlslug=Rule%205%20amendment
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:12 am

CookyMonzta wrote:
betterthanb4 wrote:SKNAAA is full of Sh*t. 9.9's 2x a new PB & NR yet he didn't meet their criteria? They are displaying vindictive action towards Collins by keeping him off the team. As for the other SKN athletes it's a shame that they subsequently had to kiss 'bureaucratic butts' in order to compete In Moscow by forking over 20% .

They may have just guaranteed that he will go island-hopping before this year is out. Trinidad, Grenada, Barbados, maybe the Caymans perhaps? If he stays healthy for the next 3 years and doesn't get (caught) dirty, he'll likely set a masters' WR (10.29, Troy Douglas, 2003 at age 40) in another country's uniform in Rio, and he might still be fast enough to run on their relay.

If TCU ever has an opening for a sprint coaching job, they will probably look him up; preferably after Rio 2016.

If I were the rest of the St. Kitts team, I'd show solidarity for Kim Collins and call the federation's bluff and stay home, every last one of them. If Kim doesn't go, they all won't go; and if the scabs they want to send in their place also say no, all eyes of the world will turn toward this island, and the federation will have a major embarrassment on their hands, one of their own creation.

I knew he'd go island-hopping, but I didn't think he'd go by way of being shot out of a cannon! :mrgreen:

Is there any rule that permits special circumstances when dealing with a federation that is as belligerent or vindictive toward its own athletes as St. Kitts? Can he petition the IAAF to compete as an independent participant? If he can't compete for Ireland now, I see him eventually ending up in Barbados or somewhere else in the Caribbean (other than Jamaica).
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:21 am

LopenUupunut wrote:
dustoff wrote:Does anybody have a link to the transfer of allegiance rules in general?

They are quite confusing. For example, if an athlete has never represented a country, do they have to sit out? Or what about in Collins' case where he hasn't competed recently?
Here are the relevant eligibility rules: http://www.iaaf.org/download/download?filename=68431829-23e2-4829-a7ca-d4e395f085f0.pdf&urlslug=Rule%205%20amendment

I hope he made his case in time under Rule 5.2 (b) (ii). He's cutting it very close between now (or any time during the last week and a half) and the World Champs.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby athleticshushmail » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:28 am

I don't like this idea that an athlete can compete for any country they want without living there or having any ties to the country.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:30 am

LopenUupunut wrote:SKN and Ireland making a deal is the way to cut the ineligibility down to only 1 year in the first place. It's not enough to remove it completely.

Given the SK federation's display of belligerence, they are more likely to hang him out to dry than release him.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby Fortius19 » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:51 am

JumboElliott wrote:He should change his name to Kim Ó Coileáin if he does so.


LOL

Man just set his PR at an age when most sprinters have been retired.
Former WC.
100m is a little more open this year than last.

It'd be a shame he can't run. I can see a bronze medal for him.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby bambam » Sun Jul 21, 2013 10:52 am

CookyMonzta wrote:
LopenUupunut wrote:SKN and Ireland making a deal is the way to cut the ineligibility down to only 1 year in the first place. It's not enough to remove it completely.

Given the SK federation's display of belligerence, they are more likely to hang him out to dry than release him.


Never know. $ talks.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby shivfan » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:07 am

Here's the story....

http://m.sknvibes.com/news/newsdetails.cfm/76474

Sounds like speculation to me....

Collins currently lives in Jamaica with his Jamaican wife, so the only country he could represent in terms of residency is Jamaica, and that's highly unlikely.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:59 am

What does residency have to do with anything? Tons of athletes represent countries they barely step foot in aside from showing up for national championships for global events. If a country wants to bestow citizenship on someone that's their prerogative and the IOC or IAAF shouldn't be able to say anything about it. It's ridiculous that they make any attempt to govern eligibility through allegiance. If people aren't worried about how much time Jackie Areson spends in Australia why worry about Kim Collins? And when I read the below wiki quote about Jillian Shwartz I wonder how much different it is than Kuwait, Qatar or Turkey?

[Shwartz] came fourth at the 2009 USA Outdoor Championships, but was gifted a place at the 2009 World Championships in Athletics as the reigning US Champion Stuczynski withdrew due to injury.[11] Schwartz vaulted 4.50 m at the championships in Berlin, just missing the qualifying mark by 5 cm.[4] She competed at the Maccabiah Games in Israel that year and won the pole vault gold medal for the United States. Officials approached her about a possible move to compete for Israel and she agreed, seeing it as a better chance to participate at the 2012 London Olympics given the strong competition for a place in the United States.[12] She gained Israeli citizenship and switched nationality in preparation for the 2010 season.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby 18.99s » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:50 am

batonless relay wrote:If people aren't worried about how much time Jackie Areson spends in Australia why worry about Kim Collins?


Areson had a pre-existing connection to Australia; she was born to her Australian mother, and she lived in Australia until she moved to the US at 10 years old. That's not nearly the same scenario as a country offering somebody instant citizenship after they've become athletically successful and without requiring any family or residential connection.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 22, 2013 4:07 am

18.99s wrote:
batonless relay wrote:If people aren't worried about how much time Jackie Areson spends in Australia why worry about Kim Collins?


Areson had a pre-existing connection to Australia; she was born to her Australian mother, and she lived in Australia until she moved to the US at 10 years old. That's not nearly the same scenario as a country offering somebody instant citizenship after they've become athletically successful and without requiring any family or residential connection.

That would be a great story EXCEPT for the fact that it's not like Ms. Areson represented AUS before this year. Was she not Australian when she ran for the US in previous years? Or, did she forget she was Australian? She ran for the US at indoor worlds in 2012, got next to last at the 2012 Olympic trials and is "now"Australian? It really doesn't matter to me; I don't care who she competes for and I'm happy that she can run for Australia, I just think it's silly to deny athletes the right to run for countries that want them to run for them. Many people in the US claim they're "Irish" and aside from a few St. Paddy's days, they have no connection to Eire. And, how much time did Zola Budd spend in England before getting citizenship? If the Irish want him, and it's not clear that they do, what difference would it make to anyone who isn't Irish?
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby booond » Mon Jul 22, 2013 5:38 am

It'd be a travesty if he didn't run and a travesty if he ran for any other country.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:35 am

And a travesty if he ran for the SKNAAA.

I think we have a condition here for 'tragedy'.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby toyracer » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:41 am

All of this because a man visited his wife the night before a race. Unreal.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby berkeley » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:38 pm

toyracer wrote:All of this because a man visited his wife the night before a race. Unreal.

Even prisoners have conjugal rights ...
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby CookyMonzta » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:47 pm

toyracer wrote:All of this because a man visited his wife the night before a race. Unreal.

Correct me if I have the story wrong, but Jesse Owens withdrew from a post-Olympic meet because his wife was sick and he went home. Then Avery Brundage (who was in charge of the AAU at the time) had the gall to suspend him for life.
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Re: Kim Collins competing for Ireland?

Postby berkeley » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:49 pm

JumboElliott wrote:He should change his name to Kim Ó Coileáin if he does so.

Or Cidhm Ó Coileáin (there is no K in Gaelic, and a fetish for throwing in useless consonants that are not pronounced).
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