Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races


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Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby aaronk » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:12 pm

I know, I KNOW!!
You're thinking....here's AaronK AGAIN.......in yet ANOTHER Mary Cain thread!!
ENOUGH ALREADY!!!!!! :x

Well, calm down, my friends!
This isn't ENTIRELY about Mary Cain.
Actually, it has more to do with some confusion about the supposed scheduled events to be held in upcoming DL meets, specifically Monaco and London.

In the Sports Illustrated article on Cain....which I'm sure all you Cain fans have already read!! :) ......there is what seems to be an error.

Here's the quote (from the article), and it SEEMS to be attributed to something Alberto Salazar said. (NOOOOOO!!! This is NOT an attack on Salazar!! It's not an attack on ANYONE!! In fact, it's only a QUESTION I have about the next DL's.)

Apparently, Salazar was telling the writer about Mary's next races.

".........(Alberto Salazar) expects Cain to race a 1500 in London on July 26, and possibly run at an earlier meet in Monaco before heading to the Worlds......"

The problem occurred when I checked the events schedule for the DL's.
London does NOT have a 1500 for women, according to the schedule of events posted in the Calendar section here.
London has either a 3K and/or a 5K scheduled......and an 800.
Monaco has a 1500....and the only distance event for women is the SC....with no 800.

So it's either a mistake on the writer's part, or maybe there's been a change in the schedule of events to be held in Monaco and London???

BTW, the article is EXCELLENT!!
TEN 200's in an average of 27.1....with a 60 second jog between.
Two 400's AFTER her PTF 5K....in 59...then 57!!!

WOW!! :shock:
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:49 pm

Where are you getting the schedule from, I don't see one on the diamond league web site for London. All I can find is the list of diamond league events for each meet (see here).

Two things to consider: 1) It's a two day meet, so possibly she will run the Saturday, not the Friday. 2) There will be more races than just the diamond league events, so there could be a non-diamond league 1500m for women. That would not be listed in the link above.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:10 pm

You must do nothing but fantasize about this young girl day and night.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Blues » Sun Jul 07, 2013 11:55 pm

Aaron, Diamond League meets have DL events and non-DL events. Here's the provisional schedule for the Anniversary Games, showing a women's 1500 on Friday the 26th. An asterisk denotes the Diamond League events.

http://www.britishathletics.org.uk/brit ... -schedule/
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby aaronk » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:24 am

Daisy wrote:Where are you getting the schedule from, I don't see one on the diamond league web site for London. All I can find is the list of diamond league events for each meet (see here).

Two things to consider: 1) It's a two day meet, so possibly she will run the Saturday, not the Friday. 2) There will be more races than just the diamond league events, so there could be a non-diamond league 1500m for women. That would not be listed in the link above.


As I said in my post, I got the list of events from the "Calendars" section on this site.
In "Calendars", there is a "T&FN Guide to the '13 Diamond League".
Under that heading, there is a list of which events are going to be held where in this year's DL's.
THERE, it does NOT have any info on TWO day meets, or NON-DL events!!
So, going by THAT, there was no way for me to know there were NON-DL events.

Besides, I wouldn't expect someone of Mary Cain's abilities to be placed into a "National" or "Developmental" event!!
She's good enough to face the BEST!!

Tuariki wrote:You must do nothing but fantasize about this young girl day and night.


Ridiculous!!!
Have you been awake these past few months??
Seems that there are many more people than just me who are following Mary Cain's career with some intensity!!
After all, even T&FN put her on its cover....AND made her a POSTER girl this month!!
She's been called.....by otherwise more mature and experienced and expert observers than I......the star of the year, the best young distance runner America has had in decades, the person who's given track a massive infusion of enthusiasm, etc etc.
Even Sports Illustrated.....not exactly known lately for its non-Olympic year coverage of our sport......has an article about her!!

So it ain't just me!!!
And it's surely NOT a "fantasy" I have about Cain!
It's an interest in a person....the youngest person to EVER compete in a WC event!!!!!.....whom SI had a feature article on!!
I read the article....and found what I THOUGHT was a discrepancy.
That supposed discrepancy was about the DL........their event schedule......and NOT solely about Cain!!
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:09 am

aaronk wrote:She's good enough to face the BEST!!

Non-diamond-league does not equate to being low caliber.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby tandfman » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:18 am

aaronk wrote:As I said in my post, I got the list of events from the "Calendars" section on this site.
In "Calendars", there is a "T&FN Guide to the '13 Diamond League".
Under that heading, there is a list of which events are going to be held where in this year's DL's.
THERE, it does NOT have any info on TWO day meets, or NON-DL events!!
So, going by THAT, there was no way for me to know there were NON-DL events.

Besides, I wouldn't expect someone of Mary Cain's abilities to be placed into a "National" or "Developmental" event!!
She's good enough to face the BEST!!

If you had read the calendar section carefully, you would have seen that London is clearly listed as a two-day meet (as it has been since the Diamond League started).
http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/images ... bymeet.pdf

And if you paid attention to the Diamond League, you would know that most Diamond League meets have non-DL events that are far from "National" or "Developmental" events. In Lausanne last week, the 110 Hurdles was a non-DL event . . .with David Oliver, Jason Richardson, etc.

Take a look at the women's 1500 at Pre and tell me that was a "National" or "Developmental" event. http://www.diamondleague-eugene.com/Liv ... 00m-Women/
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Tuariki » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:55 am

aaronk wrote:
Tuariki wrote:You must do nothing but fantasize about this young girl day and night.

Ridiculous!!!
Have you been awake these past few months??
Seems that there are many more people than just me who are following Mary Cain's career with some intensity!!
After all, even T&FN put her on its cover....AND made her a POSTER girl this month!!
She's been called.....by otherwise more mature and experienced and expert observers than I......the star of the year, the best young distance runner America has had in decades, the person who's given track a massive infusion of enthusiasm, etc etc.
Even Sports Illustrated.....not exactly known lately for its non-Olympic year coverage of our sport......has an article about her!!

So it ain't just me!!!
And it's surely NOT a "fantasy" I have about Cain!
It's an interest in a person....the youngest person to EVER compete in a WC event!!!!!.....whom SI had a feature article on!!
I read the article....and found what I THOUGHT was a discrepancy.
That supposed discrepancy was about the DL........their event schedule......and NOT solely about Cain!!

You have an obsession to turn everything, no matter how small or irrelevant, into a meandering testimonial on Mary Cain.
That said, she is without doubt a very exciting prospect.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Tuariki » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:01 am

aaronk wrote:.......the star of the year........

Hardly. Not when she hasn't won anything yet.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby aaronk » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:21 am

Tuariki wrote:
aaronk wrote:.......the star of the year........

Hardly. Not when she hasn't won anything yet.


Wasn't talking about times or wins.
Was talking about that nebulous X factor called "star power".
As in......despite better athletes, faster times, more experience, medals won, etc etc.......the person with that "X factor" grabs the big headlines..

All you need do is think of LOLO!!
She finished 4th in London, yet who got the big headlines, and was the center of attention at the post-race press conference?
Okay, so maybe Lolo isn't the best example! :P

But according to Jack Pfeifer, who wrote the Pre meet article in T&FN, Cain, "on a day of big ovations, got one of the biggest".
Why her?
Why not Niyonsaba......or even Montano?

Why did SI do their article on her?
Why did T&FN give her the "centerfold"?
(Why not Montano, who is every bit as charismatic, and much faster and more successful, as far as wins, etc go?)
Just the records?
Or because she's been getting all the headlines?
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Tuariki » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:24 am

Lolo is actually a good example.
Lolo has the X factor because she is perceived as "hot" in a sexual context, a la Anna Kurnikova, as well as being a top world class hurdler. Mary Cain is a very good runner but not yet top world class. Indications are that she is likely to be so in the very near future. However, she is unlikely to achieve the X factor status of Lolo because she does not have those other necessary physical attributes.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby br » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:05 pm

aaronk wrote:The problem occurred when I checked the events schedule for the DL's.
London does NOT have a 1500 for women, according to the schedule of events posted in the Calendar section here.
London has either a 3K and/or a 5K scheduled......and an 800.
Monaco has a 1500....and the only distance event for women is the SC....with no 800.

So it's either a mistake on the writer's part, or maybe there's been a change in the schedule of events to be held in Monaco and London???


All you needed to do was an online search. Took me 2 minutes.

http://www.britishathletics.org.uk/brit ... -schedule/
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby tandfman » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:32 pm

Tuariki wrote:Lolo is actually a good example.
Lolo has the X factor because she is perceived as "hot" in a sexual context, a la Anna Kurnikova, as well as being a top world class hurdler. Mary Cain is a very good runner but not yet top world class. Indications are that she is likely to be so in the very near future. However, she is unlikely to achieve the X factor status of Lolo because she does not have those other necessary physical attributes.

She may not have that "hot" appearance and aura, but she does have an exceptional personality. Her interviews are amazing--the media love her because she's very intelligent and is unusually sunny and enthusiastic. It's just delightful watching her both on and off the track. Regardless of how far she goes in Moscow or later in her career, she will always be generate attention and a positive reaction from the press and from fans. She'll never have the kind of image that Lolo and Kournikova have, unless she decides that's the kind of image she wants, which I doubt will ever happen. But if she doesn't change her appearance and her personality at all, she'll remain very popular.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby aaronk » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:41 pm

Tuariki wrote:Lolo is actually a good example.
Lolo has the X factor because she is perceived as "hot" in a sexual context, a la Anna Kurnikova, as well as being a top world class hurdler. Mary Cain is a very good runner but not yet top world class. Indications are that she is likely to be so in the very near future. However, she is unlikely to achieve the X factor status of Lolo because she does not have those other necessary physical attributes.


You don't understand what the "X factor" is.
Yes, Lolo gets headlines because she's an excellent athlete AND attractive.
But she is ALSO a headline maker because she says and does controversial things.
She's different.
She stands out....far beyond her athletic accomplishments.

Looks have little or nothing to do with the "X factor".
Would you call Lady Gaga attractive?
Not me!
Nor Madonna.
Nor is Mick Jagger.
Etc etc etc.

I think Cain makes headlines for a few reasons (in no particular order):

1. Her HSR's and AJR's! Her athletic accomplishments.
2. Her youth. America (the world?) is fascinated by youth. Remember Nadia Comanechi and Mary Lou Retton....or name any swimmer!! (And yes, I know Retton and Nadia WON Gold Medals, and Mary hasn't!)
3. Her personality, which is quite a bit more lively (youthful!!) than a lot of your 28 year olds, or whatever. It's easy to love her!!
4. She made the team!! And she's the youngest ever to do so.....make a WC team!!

The "X factor" is maybe CALLED that because "X equals the unknown, the unexplainable!!

I've tried to explain it, but I know I haven't hit it!!
Nor can anyone else.

I guess you either have IT.......or you don't!!
And IT....has nothing to do with looks.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:42 pm

aaronk wrote:London does NOT have a 1500 for women........

.....So it's either a mistake on the writer's part, or maybe there's been a change in the schedule of events to be held in Monaco and London???



or perhaps a mistake on the posters part?
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Rothosen » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:27 am

Who is Lolo?

Disregard. Just googled it and found out she's a bob-sledder
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Tuariki » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:39 am

aaronk wrote:
You don't understand what the "X factor" is.
..........
..........
The "X factor" is maybe CALLED that because "X equals the unknown, the unexplainable!!

Based on your definition you are sooo right. I agree that your X factor is most definitely unexplainable.

aaronk wrote:I've tried to explain it, but I know I haven't hit it!!


Soooo true!!
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Tuariki » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:50 am

aaronk wrote:I think Cain makes headlines for a few reasons (in no particular order):

2. Her youth. America (the world?) is fascinated by youth. Remember Nadia Comanechi and Mary Lou Retton....or name any swimmer!! (And yes, I know Retton and Nadia WON Gold Medals, and Mary hasn't!)

First, let me say that Mary Cain is a wonderful talent and I hope she goes under 4:00 at Moscow. Although most unlikely, I would be thrilled if she won.

However, it is only Aaronk who is fascinated and obsessed with her youth. 99% of America doesn't give a toss about Mary Cain because they have never heard of her. And that goes for almost 100% of the rest of the world.

As for comparisons with Retton and Comanechi, those references just serve to confirm an irrational obsession.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:20 am

Tuariki wrote:
aaronk wrote:I think Cain makes headlines for a few reasons (in no particular order):

2. Her youth. America (the world?) is fascinated by youth. Remember Nadia Comanechi and Mary Lou Retton....or name any swimmer!! (And yes, I know Retton and Nadia WON Gold Medals, and Mary hasn't!)

First, let me say that Mary Cain is a wonderful talent and I hope she goes under 4:00 at Moscow. Although most unlikely, I would be thrilled if she won.

However, it is only Aaronk who is fascinated and obsessed with her youth. 99% of America doesn't give a toss about Mary Cain because they have never heard of her. And that goes for almost 100% of the rest of the world.

As for comparisons with Retton and Comanechi, those references just serve to confirm an irrational obsession.


In 1967, on their album "Between the Buttons", the Rolling Stones sing "your obsession is my obsession".
You might want to listen to that song!! :)

But you make a good point, about 99% of the USA not knowing or caring about Mary Cain.
I'd take it one step further, however.
Most of America doesn't give a rat's ass about EVERYBODY in track and field.....or at least American track and field.
Try it.
Go up to the average man/woman on the street, and ask them who Ryan Whiting is.
Or Dawn Harper.
Or Galen Rupp.
Or Jenny Simpson.

Unless you come across one of the 50,000 (out of 315,000,000!!) that attend the Penn Relays on its final day....or one of those football/baseball/golf/tennis fans who watch the Olympics on NBC every 4th year......none of them will know NO ONE you might name from our sport!!
(Well, probably Lolo Jones and Usain Bolt, but mostly for reasons other than their athletic prowess!!)

Mary Cain MIGHT resonate beyond the track centers more than others.....again, because of her youth, and America's fascination with youth.

As for Retton and Comanechi et al, I was comparing their athletic prowess at a young age to Cain's.......NOT saying they're on the same level.....and America's interest in such young athletes achieving so much so young.
(Although Cain's having broken 10 (or 11??) HSR's in one year's time rates, IMO, comparably to the 10's Retton and Comanechi got in their sport!!)

MY interest in Cain, as I've stated MANY times, is strictly ATHLETIC!!!

That's MY "obsession"!!
What's YOURS?????
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:43 am

One more thing about this "youth" aspect.........

Let's say, hypothetically, Mary Cain was, for example, Kate Grace, or Brenda Martinez.

Grace just ran a bit faster than Cain over 800, 1:59.47.
Martinez is having the best year of her career.
Grace is 24, Martinez is 25.

Timewise, they're better than Cain (at least over 800 meters).
So why didn't Sports Illustrated do their story on Grace or Martinez?
Why didn't T&FN make one of THEM their centerfold for August?
Why aren't THEY surrounded by media, while better athletes are virtually ignored?
Why??
Because Cain is 17, not 7 or 8 years older.
If she WAS now 24 or 25, there wouldn't be such a high interest in her.
And because, again, Cain has a variety of things going for her the others don't.......
youth, success at a very young age, a charming lively personality, among other things (the X factor).

Again, it's not just me that recognizes this.
Others win, or run faster, but Cain gets the attention.
There ARE reasons!!
Last edited by aaronk on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby ExRun » Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:56 am

aaronk wrote:In 1967, on their album "Between the Buttons", the Rolling Stones sing "your obsession is my obsession".


For accuracy's sake the lyrics to My Obsession are "My obsessions are your possessions" :wink:
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby icerunner » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:00 am

Hey guys I hate to spoil your party. I really admire Mary Cain for her natural abilities. In my opinion I think she is being pushed too much into completion with world class athletes. I sincerely hope it works well for her because a natural talent like her is a terrible thing to waste. If you look at the best performances of all time by youth in 800m women and compare them with lifetime best for each athletes then you see a disturbing trend. There are few 2012 and 2013 performances in there which I hope are not going to be lifetime best for those athletes in there. Sadly I think there are way too many girls in there that reach their lifetime or very near to lifetime best at the age of 17. I wonder why that is so striking?
I hope Mary Cain can be the young girl she really is without putting to much pressure on her. It is always nice to be the wise one afterwards but I am concerned about things for a reason as you can clearly see here below. The history speeks for itself. Sorry I had no idea how to make the list below in an orderly fashion. I hope you can read it.

Name Best as youth Year Lifetime best Year Country
Yuan Wang 1:57.18 1993 1:57.18 1993 China
Na lin 1:58.16 1997 1:58.16 1997 China
Mary Cain 1:59.51 2013 1:59.51 2013 USA
Marion Hubner 1:59.51 1979 1:58.18 1981 Germany
Charlotte Moore 1:59.75 2002 1:59.75 2002 GBR
Birthe Bruhns 1:59.96 1987 1:59.17 1988 Germany
Elena Mirela Lavric 2:00.06 2008 1:59.74 2012 Romania
Anita Hinriksdottir 2:00.49 2013 2:00.49 2013 Iceland
Girdish Negussie 2:00.90 1987 2:00.90 1987 Ethopia
Jessica Judd 2:00.96 2012 1:59.85 2013 GBR
Christine Wachtel 2:01.16 1982 1:56.40 1988 Germany
Monica Bens 2:01.29 1983 2:01.29 1983 France
Olga Cristea 2:01.29 2004 2:00.12 2008 Moldova
Chunyu Wang 2:01.34 2011 2:01.34 2011 China
Olga Commandeur 2:01.6 1975 2:01.6 1975 Nederland
Magdalena Nedelcu 2:01.60 1990 2:01.60 1990 Romania
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:07 am

ExRun wrote:
aaronk wrote:In 1967, on their album "Between the Buttons", the Rolling Stones sing "your obsession is my obsession".


For accuracy's sake the lyrics to My Obsession are "My obsessions are your possessions" :wink:


Oops!!
You're right!
I must have been stoned when I first heard that album, because I'd always thought it said "my obsession is your obsession"!!
(Or maybe Mick and Keith were stoned when they WROTE the song!! :P )

Anyway, GREAT album.....and thanks for the correction!! :D
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Pego » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:36 am

icerunner wrote:Hey guys I hate to spoil your party. I really admire Mary Cain for her natural abilities. In my opinion I think she is being pushed too much into completion with world class athletes. I sincerely hope it works well for her because a natural talent like her is a terrible thing to waste. If you look at the best performances of all time by youth in 800m women and compare them with lifetime best for each athletes then you see a disturbing trend. There are few 2012 and 2013 performances in there which I hope are not going to be lifetime best for those athletes in there. Sadly I think there are way too many girls in there that reach their lifetime or very near to lifetime best at the age of 17. I wonder why that is so striking?
I hope Mary Cain can be the young girl she really is without putting to much pressure on her. It is always nice to be the wise one afterwards but I am concerned about things for a reason as you can clearly see here below. The history speeks for itself. Sorry I had no idea how to make the list below in an orderly fashion. I hope you can read it.

Name Best as youth Year Lifetime best Year Country
Yuan Wang 1:57.18 1993 1:57.18 1993 China
Na lin 1:58.16 1997 1:58.16 1997 China
Mary Cain 1:59.51 2013 1:59.51 2013 USA
Marion Hubner 1:59.51 1979 1:58.18 1981 Germany
Charlotte Moore 1:59.75 2002 1:59.75 2002 GBR
Birthe Bruhns 1:59.96 1987 1:59.17 1988 Germany
Elena Mirela Lavric 2:00.06 2008 1:59.74 2012 Romania
Anita Hinriksdottir 2:00.49 2013 2:00.49 2013 Iceland
Girdish Negussie 2:00.90 1987 2:00.90 1987 Ethopia
Jessica Judd 2:00.96 2012 1:59.85 2013 GBR
Christine Wachtel 2:01.16 1982 1:56.40 1988 Germany
Monica Bens 2:01.29 1983 2:01.29 1983 France
Olga Cristea 2:01.29 2004 2:00.12 2008 Moldova
Chunyu Wang 2:01.34 2011 2:01.34 2011 China
Olga Commandeur 2:01.6 1975 2:01.6 1975 Nederland
Magdalena Nedelcu 2:01.60 1990 2:01.60 1990 Romania


This list illustrates well how few of the child prodigies make it big in their prospective careers. I see only one truly big name in this long list of the youth bests. All the rest either never improved or improved only marginally.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby icerunner » Tue Jul 09, 2013 3:45 am

Yes and that is Christine Wachtel. I sincerely hope Cain, Judd and Hinriksdottir are different buth the odds are unfortunately not with them. But is this because they are pushed beyond a breaking point or they just reached their lifetime that early in life?(they were maxed or got hur becaue of overtraining) it is hard to judge just from numbers and names on a paper.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby booond » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:26 am

icerunner wrote:Hey guys I hate to spoil your party. I really admire Mary Cain for her natural abilities. In my opinion I think she is being pushed too much into completion with world class athletes. I sincerely hope it works well for her because a natural talent like her is a terrible thing to waste. If you look at the best performances of all time by youth in 800m women and compare them with lifetime best for each athletes then you see a disturbing trend. There are few 2012 and 2013 performances in there which I hope are not going to be lifetime best for those athletes in there. Sadly I think there are way too many girls in there that reach their lifetime or very near to lifetime best at the age of 17. I wonder why that is so striking?
I hope Mary Cain can be the young girl she really is without putting to much pressure on her. It is always nice to be the wise one afterwards but I am concerned about things for a reason as you can clearly see here below. The history speeks for itself. Sorry I had no idea how to make the list below in an orderly fashion. I hope you can read it.

Name Best as youth Year Lifetime best Year Country
Yuan Wang 1:57.18 1993 1:57.18 1993 China
Na lin 1:58.16 1997 1:58.16 1997 China
Mary Cain 1:59.51 2013 1:59.51 2013 USA
Marion Hubner 1:59.51 1979 1:58.18 1981 Germany
Charlotte Moore 1:59.75 2002 1:59.75 2002 GBR
Birthe Bruhns 1:59.96 1987 1:59.17 1988 Germany
Elena Mirela Lavric 2:00.06 2008 1:59.74 2012 Romania
Anita Hinriksdottir 2:00.49 2013 2:00.49 2013 Iceland
Girdish Negussie 2:00.90 1987 2:00.90 1987 Ethopia
Jessica Judd 2:00.96 2012 1:59.85 2013 GBR
Christine Wachtel 2:01.16 1982 1:56.40 1988 Germany
Monica Bens 2:01.29 1983 2:01.29 1983 France
Olga Cristea 2:01.29 2004 2:00.12 2008 Moldova
Chunyu Wang 2:01.34 2011 2:01.34 2011 China
Olga Commandeur 2:01.6 1975 2:01.6 1975 Nederland
Magdalena Nedelcu 2:01.60 1990 2:01.60 1990 Romania


While I don't disagree that "phenoms" fail, many succeed and the way to look at this isn't through the lens of failure but the lens of success. Where do the best 800-meter runners in the world come from and how many were visible at age 17. 18 or are more made through slow growth only to arrive at 25?

Maria Mutola - not on the list - was 4th at the WC at 18. Kim Gallagher - not on the list - was a silver medalist at age 20. Mary Decker - not on the list! Work through the medalists of the last 20/30 years and look where they were in their late teens. You may find that while many phenoms fail, there are many phenoms who succeed.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby icerunner » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:48 am

This is the official lifetime best list from IAAF.ORG for girls 17 years and younger. Mary Decker is not on the list and neither are Mutola or Gallageher. Usually this list is accurate. Do you have any confirmed marks for Mary Decker and Kim Gallager when they were 17(not 18). There is also a list for 19 years and younger but it only covers 25 best athlete. On that list Maria Mutola is number 7 with 1:57.63 (her lifetime best is 1:55.19). The only american on that list is Mary Cain. I looked for both Kim Kallager and Mary Decker but found neither. It there are mistakes in thos lists then it is up to the US federation to correct it.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:59 am

aaronk wrote:Go up to the average man/woman on the street, and ask them who Ryan Whiting is.
Or Dawn Harper.
Or Galen Rupp.
Or Jenny Simpson.


Even amongst true track fans who post on message boards there aren't too many threads or even posts bringing up the above 4 names other than perhaps on Letsrun where there does seem to be a Rupp obsession amongst those in his peer age group.

MY interest in Cain, as I've stated MANY times, is strictly ATHLETIC!!!


While assuming this is true, it is a bit odd that a guy who has to be in his 60's would be so focused on the young lady.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:02 am

icerunner wrote:This is the official lifetime best list from IAAF.ORG for girls 17 years and younger. Mary Decker is not on the list and neither are Mutola or Gallageher. Usually this list is accurate. Do you have any confirmed marks for Mary Decker and Kim Gallager when they were 17(not 18). There is also a list for 19 years and younger but it only covers 25 best athlete. On that list Maria Mutola is number 7 with 1:57.63 (her lifetime best is 1:55.19). The only american on that list is Mary Cain. I looked for both Kim Kallager and Mary Decker but found neither. It there are mistakes in thos lists then it is up to the US federation to correct it.


Gallagher ran just over 2 flat. Decker ran 2:02 but then had some injury issues during her late teen years IIRC before returning to competition in her early 20's.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby vencio2 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:30 am

Mutola ran 2:04 as a 15-yr old (in the hts of the 88 OG) but didn't go faster until she moved to the US in 91. Apparently in MOZ she didn't train properly, only when there was a big meeting coming up.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby booond » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:49 am

icerunner wrote:This is the official lifetime best list from IAAF.ORG for girls 17 years and younger. Mary Decker is not on the list and neither are Mutola or Gallageher. Usually this list is accurate. Do you have any confirmed marks for Mary Decker and Kim Gallager when they were 17(not 18). There is also a list for 19 years and younger but it only covers 25 best athlete. On that list Maria Mutola is number 7 with 1:57.63 (her lifetime best is 1:55.19). The only american on that list is Mary Cain. I looked for both Kim Kallager and Mary Decker but found neither. It there are mistakes in thos lists then it is up to the US federation to correct it.


Here are the problems with the analysis of fast female 17 yr old 800-meter runners as to whether they peak and never improve:

No comparison to other disciplines whether inside Athletics or out - 17 year old male sprinters, chess players, butchers, bakers and candlestick makers.

No measure as to what is improvement.

No age definition - young 17 vs. old 17

List is "of the moment" - what happened to those who were once on the list but knocked off as times get better

No comparison of first world versus third, democracies versus communist states, countries where doping ran free versus those where it didn't

16 is a very small sample.

Of the 16, 6 are easily dismissed - two women from china in 90s and four who are still improving. Of the remaining 10, 5 never got better, 2 got better by less than a second and three improved by more than a second - Wachtel being the best.

Without better controls this "study" is like trying to fashion a cheeseburger from lawn clippings.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby icerunner » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:07 am

This was by no means meant to be a study of any kind. This was just done on a small sample of 17 yo athletes that top the all-time list of 800m. It would be interesting study for a specialist to do a complete analysis of all events male and female in T&F and try to make sense out of this. I just meant to bring up this list here to underline the fact that Child prodigies should be handled with utmost care. They will easily burn themself out or get hurt because of too much exercise load or whatever reason there is behind why they are topping at the age of 17. It would be interesting study to follow child prodigies in many countries in different disciplines and see who makes it successfully trough his(her) teen years to improve further to find out where the pits are and what to look out for when you have a very gifted individual in your hands(as a coach). Someone must have written a paper on this I am sure of that.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:17 am

MY interest in Cain, as I've stated MANY times, is strictly ATHLETIC!!!


While assuming this is true, it is a bit odd that a guy who has to be in his 60's would be so focused on the young lady.[/quote]

(Sorry. In editing this, I cut out the person's name who said this. It was Dutra5.)

If it were a MALE 17 year old, achieving the SAME level of times/wins/placings/records as Cain, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be AS interested in HIM!!
(I WAS......when Gerry Lindgren hit the record books hard in 1964!!)

As many/most of you know, I'm a times/records-oriented person.
When someone, male or female, of ANY age, makes one of my DDD (Double Dandy Dozen--Top 24 Performers lists---for HS, College, USA, and World----, I'm THRILLED!!

So when Ms Cain, who just happened to be a FEMALE 16-17 year old, started breaking all those HSR's, I became VERY interested!!
And that's when the speculation began.....about how much FASTER she can run, whether she CAN medal in Moscow, etc etc.
(Read the May (I believe! Might be April or even June!) 1964 issue of T&FN. In it, there's an article or editorial about the prospects......the EXCITING prospects for Lindgren to make the Tokyo Olympic team at either 1500 or 5000 meters!! He'd run a 4:01.5 mile, so people weren't sure if he would be better at 1500 or 5K!! Turns out he was best at 10K!!)

Yes, I'm "in my 60's".....turned 69 on June 24th.......but it's the TIMES and RECORDS at a young age that are my "focus" on Cain!!
I expect, if she has a year like this one, that by the end of her HS years in 2014, she'll hold EVERY HSR from 800 to 10000, indoors and out!! (Except no 10K indoors, and no Steeplechase!)
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:00 am

aaronk wrote:
MY interest in Cain, as I've stated MANY times, is strictly ATHLETIC!!!

Dutra5 wrote:While assuming this is true, it is a bit odd that a guy who has to be in his 60's would be so focused on the young lady.


If it were a MALE 17 year old, achieving the SAME level of times/wins/placings/records as Cain, you can bet your bottom dollar I'd be AS interested in HIM!!
(I WAS......when Gerry Lindgren hit the record books hard in 1964!!)

As many/most of you know, I'm a times/records-oriented person.
When someone, male or female, of ANY age, makes one of my DDD (Double Dandy Dozen--Top 24 Performers lists---for HS, College, USA, and World----, I'm THRILLED!!

So when Ms Cain, who just happened to be a FEMALE 16-17 year old, started breaking all those HSR's, I became VERY interested!!
And that's when the speculation began.....about how much FASTER she can run, whether she CAN medal in Moscow, etc etc.
(Read the May (I believe! Might be April or even June!) 1964 issue of T&FN. In it, there's an article or editorial about the prospects......the EXCITING prospects for Lindgren to make the Tokyo Olympic team at either 1500 or 5000 meters!! He'd run a 4:01.5 mile, so people weren't sure if he would be better at 1500 or 5K!! Turns out he was best at 10K!!)

Yes, I'm "in my 60's".....turned 69 on June 24th.......but it's the TIMES and RECORDS at a young age that are my "focus" on Cain!!
I expect, if she has a year like this one, that by the end of her HS years in 2014, she'll hold EVERY HSR from 800 to 10000, indoors and out!! (Except no 10K indoors, and no Steeplechase!)


The elongated explanation is not required nor does the fact that if it were a male you'd be just as giddy make the constant focus any less strange.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:15 am

Daisy wrote:
aaronk wrote:She's good enough to face the BEST!!

Non-diamond-league does not equate to being low caliber.


But anything even remotely "developmental" wouldn't be repeatedly shoving Cain into advanced adult-level competition so we can watch and be thrilled and our lives then have greater meaning.

And by we I mean he.
.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Blues » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:18 am

aaronk wrote:As I said in my post, I got the list of events from the "Calendars" section on this site.
In "Calendars", there is a "T&FN Guide to the '13 Diamond League".
Under that heading, there is a list of which events are going to be held where in this year's DL's.
THERE, it does NOT have any info on TWO day meets, or NON-DL events!!
So, going by THAT, there was no way for me to know there were NON-DL events.

Besides, I wouldn't expect someone of Mary Cain's abilities to be placed into a "National" or "Developmental" event!!
She's good enough to face the BEST!!


For Aaron's knowledge, there are 14 Diamond League Meets.... But each individual event in the Diamond League competition involves points scored in only 7 designated meets out of those 14 meets. That means that a particular event is only considered a DL event in half of the DL meets, but can still be included in the other 7 DL meets even though the event isn't a DL scoring event in THOSE meets.

Since DL meets are major meets and can also be relatively lucrative for athletes, top athletes will still often compete in their events at various DL meets even if their event hasn't been designated to be a DL scoring event at those particular meets. The Diamond League schedule may only show the DL scoring events for a particular DL meet, and not the full schedule of events for the meet. So it's best to check the meet website for a full schedule of events rather than the DL website schedule.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:19 am

[quote="aaronk] Was talking about that nebulous X factor called "star power".
As in......despite better athletes, faster times, more experience, medals won, etc etc.......the person with that "X factor" grabs the big headlines..

All you need do is think of LOLO!!
She finished 4th in London, yet who got the big headlines, and was the center of attention at the post-race press conference? [/quote]

Anybody but me a little disturbed that the athlete previously given the spotlight for her sexuality (besides athleticism) is the FIRST example aaronk uses...?
.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:23 am

br wrote:
aaronk wrote:The problem occurred when I checked the events schedule for the DL's.
London does NOT have a 1500 for women, according to the schedule of events posted in the Calendar section here.
London has either a 3K and/or a 5K scheduled......and an 800.
Monaco has a 1500....and the only distance event for women is the SC....with no 800.

So it's either a mistake on the writer's part, or maybe there's been a change in the schedule of events to be held in Monaco and London???


All you needed to do was an online search. Took me 2 minutes.

http://www.britishathletics.org.uk/brit ... -schedule/



But then we wouldn't have an excuse to segue' into yet another thread about our favorite athlete, would we?
.
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:24 am

Blues wrote:
aaronk wrote:As I said in my post, I got the list of events from the "Calendars" section on this site.
In "Calendars", there is a "T&FN Guide to the '13 Diamond League".
Under that heading, there is a list of which events are going to be held where in this year's DL's.
THERE, it does NOT have any info on TWO day meets, or NON-DL events!!
So, going by THAT, there was no way for me to know there were NON-DL events.

Besides, I wouldn't expect someone of Mary Cain's abilities to be placed into a "National" or "Developmental" event!!
She's good enough to face the BEST!!


For Aaron's knowledge, there are 14 Diamond League Meets.... But each individual event in the Diamond League competition involves points scored in only 7 designated meets out of those 14 meets. That means that a particular event is only considered a DL event in half of the DL meets, but can still be included in the other 7 DL meets even though the event isn't a DL scoring event in THOSE meets.

Since DL meets are major meets and can also be relatively lucrative for athletes, top athletes will still often compete in their events at various DL meets even if their event hasn't been designated to be a DL scoring event at those particular meets. The Diamond League schedule may only show the DL scoring events for a particular DL meet, and not the full schedule of events for the meet. So it's best to check the meet website for a full schedule of events rather than the DL website schedule.


Actually, I'm not a big fan of the DL concept.
I'm sure the athletes who compete for the points and the diamonds and the $$$$$ would disagree.
But I'll take the OLD Bislett, DN Galan, Monaco, Golden Gala, Weltklasse etc meets any day over the current DL set-up!!
Brian wrote:[quote="aaronk] Was talking about that nebulous X factor called "star power".
As in......despite better athletes, faster times, more experience, medals won, etc etc.......the person with that "X factor" grabs the big headlines..

All you need do is think of LOLO!!
She finished 4th in London, yet who got the big headlines, and was the center of attention at the post-race press conference? [/quote]

Anybody but me a little disturbed that the athlete previously given the spotlight for her sexuality (besides athleticism) is the FIRST example aaronk uses...?
.[/quote][/quote]


Jeez!! :roll:
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Re: Confusion about Mary Cain's next DL races

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:39 am

Brian wrote:[quote="aaronk]... All you need do is think of LOLO!!
She finished 4th in London, yet who got the big headlines, and was the center of attention at the post-race press conference? [/quote]

Anybody but me a little disturbed that the athlete previously given the spotlight for her sexuality (besides athleticism) is the FIRST example aaronk uses...?[/quote]


That is not quite a complete representation. Lolo has more 'cited' tweets than possibly the entirety of USATF athletes. She is cleaver, quick, funny, etc. I am not sure that her looks is the primary deal for me. Yes, things like 'can't get a date, ..., virgin' are more notable given her appearance, but if she had 'ordinary track and field star' looks it would not be hugely different.

She has also been on the world stage for a long time, so the press knows her and knows that the public know her better than is typically the case. Further, her hard-luck crash at the 9th hurdle while clearly ahead for an Olympic Gold is also notable. As is her hard upbringing (clearly not unique, but also a story to tell in the up-front-and-personal style that is particularly emphasized at the Olympics.
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