Paris DL w 800


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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:16 am

Pego wrote:testosterone levels being some part of it

I think that where the testosterone is made in the body is important too. If the testosterone is from testes then that is a problem. But we also have to consider if their body can respond to the testosterone.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:26 am

Daisy wrote:
Pego wrote:testosterone levels being some part of it

I think that where the testosterone is made in the body is important too. If the testosterone is from testes then that is a problem. But we also have to consider if their body can respond to the testosterone.


That's what I said, the anatomy :wink: .
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:47 am

Pego wrote:
Daisy wrote:
Pego wrote:testosterone levels being some part of it

I think that where the testosterone is made in the body is important too. If the testosterone is from testes then that is a problem. But we also have to consider if their body can respond to the testosterone.

That's what I said, the anatomy :wink: .

That's anatomy? :twisted: I'm pretty ignorant about what they teach in those classes.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby DentyCracker » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:50 am

LOL
no disrespect meant Daisy
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:54 am

DentyCracker wrote:LOL
no disrespect meant Daisy

:D I didn't look at it from that angle. I'm not THAT ignorant. :mrgreen:
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Blues » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:52 pm

Daisy wrote:
Pego wrote:testosterone levels being some part of it

I think that where the testosterone is made in the body is important too. If the testosterone is from testes then that is a problem. But we also have to consider if their body can respond to the testosterone.


I kept things simple in my first post... The IAAF considers anyone who's considered female under law as being eligible to compete as a female, as long as they conform to certain rules and regulations regarding testosterone levels or androgen resistance. So androgen resistance is taken into consideration and if the athlete can show that she has androgen resistance and that higher testosterone levels won't give her a competitive advantage, she's permitted to have testosterone levels in the normal male range.

After multiple pages in the rules regarding confidential medical exams and expert medical panels, the athlete's eligibility to compete as a female comes down to this:

Following its final review of the athlete’s case, the Expert Medical Panel shall be asked to make a recommendation as regards the athlete’s eligibility to compete in women’s competition based on her reported androgen levels and taking into consideration any androgen resistance that she might have.

6.5 The Expert Medical Panel shall recommend that the athlete is eligible to compete in women’s competition if:

(i) she has androgen levels below the normal male range; or

(ii) she has androgen levels within the normal male range but has an androgen resistance such that she derives no competitive advantage from having androgen levels in the normal male range.

Androgen levels for the purposes of paragraph 6.5 are measured by the levels of Total Testosterone in serum.
Normal male range Total Testosterone Levels - ≥10 nmol/L

6.6 The burden of proof shall be on the athlete to establish, where applicable, that she has an androgen resistance such that she derives no competitive advantage from androgen levels in the normal male range and the standard of proof in such a case shall be by a balance of probabilities.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Flumpy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:01 am

So now we're discussing a potential intersex condition, despite there being no evidence that the person in question has any such thing, simply because someone thinks they look like they might.

Seriously??? :roll:
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby uakari » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:51 am

oh please, this from the poster who thinks top female tennis players are too fat and ordinary to be athletes?????

my question was simply, has the iaaf or any other authority spoken about niyonsaba being intersexed? i have not found any mention of that.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:03 am

Flumpy wrote:So now we're discussing a potential intersex condition despite there being no evidence that the person in question has any such thing

The discussion was in response to the general statement from 18.99:
18.99s wrote:.......So intersexed athletes, whoever they are, will continue to be part of women's athletics, and there's no use speculating or discussing the issue.

Not about any specific athlete. Threads wander, we all know that.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Blues » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:38 am

Flumpy wrote:So now we're discussing a potential intersex condition, despite there being no evidence that the person in question has any such thing, simply because someone thinks they look like they might.

Seriously??? :roll:


Didn't only one person mention anything about a particular athlete? I think it's pretty clear that neither myself nor any poster who responded to my first post were discussing the aforementioned athlete or any athlete in particular, but that we were instead taking an opportunity to offer opinions regarding the IAAF procedures or rules that allow (or don't allow) women with hyperandrogenism or androgen resistance to compete against other women, and whether those rules are medically sufficient to provide a level playing field for the other female athletes. It's not much different than posters getting sidetracked into a science related discussion on whether certain stimulants offer a competitive advantage (and whether or not they should be banned), in a thread where there's an earlier post suggesting that an athlete may have used a stimulant like methylhexaneamine.

The event in this thread (800m) is obviously also the event that's most closely associated with this issue, and is the event of the athlete who inspired the creation of the IAAF policy and rules. I'm sorry that the discussion offends you flumpy, but other than the post that mentioned the athlete's appearance, no subsequent post had anything to do with that particular athlete or any other athlete in particular. It's unfortunate that a particular athlete was singled out by a poster, but it was the mention of the condition, not the athlete, that prompted my posts regarding the current rules.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:58 am

Blues wrote:The IAAF considers anyone who's considered female under law as being eligible to compete as a female, as long as they conform to certain rules and regulations regarding testosterone levels or androgen resistance.


To me, this approach is cumbersome and can get inconclusive quite often. Why not start with anatomy, then move to physiology/endocrinology?

Testes (1 or 2) = male
Ovaries (1 or 2) = female
All other sex characteristics are pretty much irrelevant to the issue of athletic ability and directly (well, perhaps sometime indirectly) related to the anatomy. There is more to the differences between sexes than testosterone levels. Even cerebral anatomy and physiology varies between the sexes.

As Sigmund Freud so famously observed, "Anatomy is destiny." :wink:
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby uakari » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:00 pm

is there an overlap between natural ("normal") ranges of testosterone between men and women?
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:04 pm

uakari wrote:is there an overlap between natural ("normal") ranges of testosterone between men and women?


During the reproductive decades of life, male low end is still many times higher than the highest females. Of course, we are talking about true females.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:20 pm

Pego wrote:Of course, we are talking about true females.

Are those values from the general population? I assume athletic women will be on the extreme end of the scale and it's possible that few are in those studies.

Here is one source I found with a quick search, but I'm not sure if the ages and athleticism of the study group for these data presented. It's also an 'amateur' web site, so I'm not sure how accurate the numbers are.
Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). This is a more potent form of testosterone that is metabolized by the body from other androgens. In men most is made from testosterone, while in women the main source is androstenedione (which is first converted INTO testosterone). Current research indicates that DHT is responsible for male-pattern balding and excessive, unwanted hair in both sexes. In males it is also responsible for non-cancerous prostate swelling (BPH).

DHT LEVELS pg/ml
Females (Premenopausal): 24-368
Females (Postmenopausal): 10-181
Males: 250-990

http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/hrt_ref.htm


They have levels for other hormones as well as free and total testosterone. They also discussion some of the problems associated with making such comparisons.


Code: Select all
Total Testosterone
               ng/dl          ng/ml
Females       6 - 86         0.1 - 1.2
Males        270 - 1100      2.4 - 12
Conversion factor: 1 ng/ml = 3.47 nmol/l

Free or Unbound Testosterone
               ng/dl         pg/ml 
Females       0.3-1.9       0.6 - 6.8   
Males          9-30        47.0-244.0   
Last edited by Daisy on Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:24 pm

This table separates pre- and post-menopausal women, but not young and older males. I am nearly certain that during athletic ages, there is no male/female overlap.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:33 pm

Pego wrote:This table separates pre- and post-menopausal women, but not young and older males. I am nearly certain that during athletic ages, there is no male/female overlap.

I'm sure you're right. I saw several figures comparing young and old males. Young were far higher. I assume WADA must have all these data for actual athletes. Those are the only data of real interest.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:31 pm

uakari wrote:oh please, this from the poster who thinks top female tennis players are too fat and ordinary to be athletes?????

my question was simply, has the iaaf or any other authority spoken about niyonsaba being intersexed? i have not found any mention of that.


What !!

Firstly Flumpy and i are not the same person :?

Saying someone 'looks' unfit, is not the same about casting aspersions about their gender because they don't adhere to your ideals of femininity.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby uakari » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:47 pm

sorry, but you DO look alike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! honest mistake!

second, i did not cast aspersions on her appearance. i was just asking whether she's intersex (for which it seems there's a deafening silence).
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:54 pm

uakari wrote:sorry, but you DO look alike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! honest mistake!

second, i did not cast aspersions on her appearance. i was just asking whether she's intersex (for which it seems there's a deafening silence).


I didn't hear you asking the same thing about Darya Klishina !!

It seems only African women fair game for such discussions :roll:
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby uakari » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:57 pm

oh please, get over yourself.

ok.

q. is darya klishina intersex?????

a. not that we know. next question...


btw, are you the same poster deriding the PC police in the fat tennis players thread?
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:40 pm

uakari wrote:are you the same poster deriding the PC police in the fat tennis players thread?

That must be someone else.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:53 pm

uakari wrote: i was just asking whether she's intersex (for which it seems there's a deafening silence).


I can answer the deafening silence, but only for myself. There has been nothing that I saw anywhere indicating that either one of those above mentioned women may not be "real" women.
Just a comment on the margin. Physical appearance as observed by a casual observer (fans like us) can be deceiving. Narrow hips, flat chest etc. is seen in numerous female athletes, whose feminity never comes into question. You cannot tell much unless you have her naked on the exam table :wink: .
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby eldanielfire » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:16 pm

mump boy wrote:
uakari wrote:sorry, but you DO look alike!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! honest mistake!

second, i did not cast aspersions on her appearance. i was just asking whether she's intersex (for which it seems there's a deafening silence).


I didn't hear you asking the same thing about Darya Klishina !!

It seems only African women fair game for such discussions :roll:


Only you have jumped to this conclusion mump boy. That says more about what you really think than anybody else especially as the vast majority of African women don't look masculine. However somebody highlighted one that is in appearance and apparent features similar to males is probably the first point of suspicion. In the case of Darya Klishina she looks very overtly female, so it is a bad example to compare and only strengthens the initial statement because her appearance doesn't suggest she is anything but a women.

As far as I've been aware these questions were asked of the gender of European and American athletes previously in the past but such cases are rare enough and I know of only one previously in the past decade, where evidence was leaked that indicate there was truth to the suspicions and that a solution had been found.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby eldanielfire » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:17 pm

Pego wrote:
uakari wrote: i was just asking whether she's intersex (for which it seems there's a deafening silence).


I can answer the deafening silence, but only for myself. There has been nothing that I saw anywhere indicating that either one of those above mentioned women may not be "real" women.
Just a comment on the margin. Physical appearance as observed by a casual observer (fans like us) can be deceiving. Narrow hips, flat chest etc. is seen in numerous female athletes, whose feminity never comes into question. You cannot tell much unless you have her naked on the exam table :wink: .


Even that can be inconclusive as sadly is the case in such situations of genuine intergender situations.
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Blues » Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:39 pm

Pego wrote:
uakari wrote: i was just asking whether she's intersex (for which it seems there's a deafening silence).


I can answer the deafening silence, but only for myself. There has been nothing that I saw anywhere indicating that either one of those above mentioned women may not be "real" women.
Just a comment on the margin. Physical appearance as observed by a casual observer (fans like us) can be deceiving. Narrow hips, flat chest etc. is seen in numerous female athletes, whose feminity never comes into question. You cannot tell much unless you have her naked on the exam table :wink: .


And in many instances it may also require some type of internal imaging to be sure as well as additional hormonal testing... And because of the IAAF requirements for, and guarantee of, strict confidentiality for athletes with hyperandrogenism or androgen resistance (which is a good thing), the public will probably never know which athletes are involved, unless the athlete chooses to make it public herself. (It's my guess that there's probably more than one athlete who's been cleared to compete under the current IAAF rules that were instituted after Caster Semenya had to deal with her unfortunate pre-rules ordeal, but that's only a guess and doesn't warrant finger pointing at anyone.)
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:10 pm

A couple of connections here that could lead to the hypothesis: 1) rapid, young-age development into a world-leader; 2) the 800 (the event of the last individual had this as a major issue).
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Megas15 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:02 pm

Come to think of it...Nyonsaba does look VERY boyish. She/He needs to be checked!
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Re: Paris DL w 800

Postby Megas15 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:03 pm

Megas15 wrote:Come to think of it...Nyonsaba does look VERY boyish. She/He needs to be checked!

Her testes may already descended...
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