Long Jump ultimate barrier?


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby AFTERBURNER » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:52 pm

Is a 10m00 long jump possible?
AFTERBURNER
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:10 pm

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby Marlow » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:55 pm

Marlow
 
Posts: 21078
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby jhc68 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:33 pm

Possible but no one posting here will live to see it.
jhc68
 
Posts: 3289
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:50 pm

Speaking of which, not much longer until Mike Powell has held the record longer than Beamon.
JumboElliott
 
Posts: 2115
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:46 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:55 pm

jhc68 wrote:Possible but no one posting here will live to see it.


I don't think I will ever live to see a 9.50, either.

At least I hope I can see a real 9.00 jump before I die.
TN1965
 
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:38 pm

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby jhc68 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:42 pm

As a kid I was lucky enough to see Ralph Boston eclipse Jesse Owens' record.
jhc68
 
Posts: 3289
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby KDFINE » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:40 pm

An increase by more than a meter? No. Besides, I don't think that the human body could take the force of the landing, but I'll leave that question to any physios out there.
KDFINE
 
Posts: 971
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby jhc68 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:47 pm

I doubt the force at landing would be the issue but force at take off could be bone breaking
jhc68
 
Posts: 3289
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby lonewolf » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:24 pm

Anyone anticipating a 9.50m,or even a 9.0m jump should measure off 8.95 on their driveway and ponder the improbablity that a human at our stage of evolution has jumped that far.

Hundreds of healthy young men have jumped thousands of times and only five have achieved or exceeded 8.86m (29-1) under any condition. Only ten have jumped 8.73.

It was one thing for Beamon to add 55 cm to the existing WR 8.35, It would be quite another to add even a fraction of that to the existing 8.95 record .

Lewis famous foul at Indy (1982), alleged to have been 9.14 (30-0), shown by post-jump video/computer analysis to be about 9.0m (29-6), was Beamonesque in it own right.. but it was just a "long foul". It was nine years before Lewis again jumped 29 feet.

Although we now apply the "no mark, no foul" rule, in 1982, the rule book, just as today, says the foot shall not touch the ground beyond the foul plane but it further says the plasticine is to "assist' in judging fouls.

I knew the official, now deceased, who was the board judge that day. He was a nationally respected official and if he says Lewis fouled by a cm, Lewis fouled by a cm.

Some one may jump 9.0 m next week, next year or next century but don't count on it.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8812
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:47 am



An interesting exercise in mathematical modelling. Is Rhett Allain a pseudonym for 26mi235??
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1290
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:55 am

KDFINE wrote:An increase by more than a meter? No. Besides, I don't think that the human body could take the force of the landing, but I'll leave that question to any physios out there.

Are you assuming the pit will only have sand in it to 9.50m?
In that case I would agree that the force of landing on the grass or concrete beyond the pit would be rather difficult for the body to take. But having once used a gymnastics spring board to jump over 10m into the sand I can guarantee you the force of landing in the sand after 10m was not appreciably different to landing after 26 feet.
However, I would imagine jhc68 is correct that the force needed at takeoff would be very stressful on the body
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1290
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:02 am

10m long jump would be like 8.5 for 100m.

It will only happen once we get into genetic manipulation of designer baby athletes.You know follow Usain Bolt and Franklin Jacobs get a body sample (hair) and make yourself a designer baby long jumper.

The Belarussians are probably following Bolt and Jacobs now. Their current problem is how to make the baby look like a Belarussian (mix in a bit of Ostapchuk I suppose).
Tuariki
 
Posts: 1290
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:39 pm
Location: Rohe o Te Whanau a Apanui

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby eldanielfire » Sun Jun 30, 2013 2:19 am

Tuariki wrote:
KDFINE wrote:An increase by more than a meter? No. Besides, I don't think that the human body could take the force of the landing, but I'll leave that question to any physios out there.

Are you assuming the pit will only have sand in it to 9.50m?
In that case I would agree that the force of landing on the grass or concrete beyond the pit would be rather difficult for the body to take. But having once used a gymnastics spring board to jump over 10m into the sand I can guarantee you the force of landing in the sand after 10m was not appreciably different to landing after 26 feet.
However, I would imagine jhc68 is correct that the force needed at takeoff would be very stressful on the body


The human body can easily take the strain and stress. However the maths alone is a bit out of context, Biomechanics, the real type not the "Wow. Humans could run under 9 secs" headline grabbers says probably won't be able to physically do it.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1317
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby user4 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:21 am

jhc68 wrote:I doubt the force at landing would be the issue but force at take off could be bone breaking


jhc nails it !

However ... there will be a progressive improvement in the LJ record over time. It will come from faster runways and springy boards as the regulations against both are relaxed over time.

Regarding the raw athleticism issue. It seems that there are two basic types of LJers. There are the speed jumpers, typified by Carl Lewis that get maximal speed down the runway to translate to jump distance, they follow a fairly flat arc into the pit. Not much eye popping about the feat if you have already seen them run the 100m. Then there are the height jumpers, these are guys that really get up in the air and they make a loop of an arc as they fall into the pit as if dropped from the sky. Beamon's big jump was of this type. These guys get out there without the world class speed of Lewis but they get the job done.

If a top tier dash man could get the height of a Beamon ... 10m!
user4
 
Posts: 1431
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:47 am

Seeing as we've gone 5cm in 45 years, I don't think we should hold our breathe.
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby TeWaio » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:27 am

user4 wrote:
jhc68 wrote:I doubt the force at landing would be the issue but force at take off could be bone breaking


jhc nails it !

However ... there will be a progressive improvement in the LJ record over time. It will come from faster runways and springy boards as the regulations against both are relaxed over time.

Regarding the raw athleticism issue. It seems that there are two basic types of LJers. There are the speed jumpers, typified by Carl Lewis that get maximal speed down the runway to translate to jump distance, they follow a fairly flat arc into the pit. Not much eye popping about the feat if you have already seen them run the 100m. Then there are the height jumpers, these are guys that really get up in the air and they make a loop of an arc as they fall into the pit as if dropped from the sky. Beamon's big jump was of this type. These guys get out there without the world class speed of Lewis but they get the job done.

If a top tier dash man could get the height of a Beamon ... 10m!


I would say more like if a top tier dash man could get the height of a Beamon ...9.20m
TeWaio
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:01 am
Location: Cambridge, UK

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby lonewolf » Sun Jun 30, 2013 7:36 pm

I am not concerned that the pressure exerted/absorbed in takeoff/landing of a 10.0 m jump would test the limits of the human body. We have had a handful of 8.90 (29-+)jumps and that has not been a problem.
The problem is hurling one's body that far.
I think I have previously mentioned that at the 1989 TAC in Houston, two years before Tokyo, I was on the scope when Powell had a 9.0m (29-6.5) foul jump. We could not officially measure or record the jump but nothing prevented me from sliding the scope out and getting a reading. The board judge said it was a 2" foul so ihe spanned a distance of 29-4.
I quietly informed Powell of the distance. He has since said on numerous occasions that the knowledge he could jump that far was always in his mind during subsequent competitions, especially Tokyo.
I have worked competitions with every 29 footer.. but, of the five, only Powell has raked the pit (briefly..very briefly) for me. :)
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8812
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby Vielleicht » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:23 pm

If astronauts can take the amount of stress during their take-off, I don't see why long jumpers can't handle theirs...
Vielleicht
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:11 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby wineturtle » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:57 pm

lonewolf: five?
Powell
Beamon
Lewis
Emmiyan


edit Ivan Pedroso w
wineturtle
 
Posts: 2062
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Astoria Queens New York

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby Dave » Sun Jun 30, 2013 11:01 pm

Flumpy wrote:Seeing as we've gone 5cm in 45 years, I don't think we should hold our breathe.

That tells me were are close to the limit. We seem to be close to the limit in at least the HJ, LJ, and pv.
Dave
 
Posts: 2119
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby arara » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:29 am

Here you get some answers. The following diagram shows the distance for certain speeds and take of angles
arara
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:57 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:34 am

wineturtle wrote:lonewolf: five?
Powell
Beamon
Lewis
Emmiyan

edit Ivan Pedroso w

Yes, I counted Pedroso unde "r all conditions."
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8812
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby rainy.here » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:55 am

lonewolf wrote:I knew the official, now deceased, who was the board judge that day. He was a nationally respected official and if he says Lewis fouled by a cm, Lewis fouled by a cm.


Coming from lonewolf, that's pretty much as good as seeing the video replay. :)
rainy.here
 
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:05 pm

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby BCBaroo » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:24 am

JumboElliott wrote:Speaking of which, not much longer until Mike Powell has held the record longer than Beamon.


That - is a remarkable stat.
BCBaroo
 
Posts: 973
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby pickle47 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:40 pm

I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and I can tell you that the mythical nature of Beamon's jump put the event on the map, IMHO. Everyone knew who Bob Beamon was and about the jump. The long jump was a prestige event, one of the events that you wanted to compete in, like the 100 and the mile. The biggest name in track: Carl Lewis, and, hey!, he's a long jumper, too!! And don't forget Jesse Owens!

Now that Lewis and Powell (and Myricks, etc) are gone, there is no one to put the event on the map. Yes, there are still great athletes, but every event has some great athletes, though only us track junkies know who they are. The long jump has now returned to a normal standing among track events, and will probably not enjoy the intense focus and participation that it has in years past.

Somewhere there lives a tall, skinny kid that is really fast...but not quite fast enough to win the sprints. And a prescient coach will take him aside, stare down the runway with him, and plant the seeds of Ann Arbor, Mexico City, and Tokyo in his mind and heart. And then, then we will see that 9m jump.
pickle47
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Another perfect day in So Cal

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:59 pm

pickle47 wrote:Somewhere there lives a tall, skinny kid that is really fast...but not quite fast enough to win the sprints. And a prescient coach will take him aside, stare down the runway with him, and plant the seeds of Ann Arbor, Mexico City, and Tokyo in his mind and heart. And then, then we will see that 9m jump.

That is what we are all hoping for. In a generation, or two or three, 9.0m ( 29-6) jumps may become as common as 8.53m (28-0) jumps are now ( which is to say, about as scarce a hen's teeth).
For now, I think we are nibbling at the upper limit of human capability.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8812
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby Vielleicht » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:18 pm

Speaking of which, is long jump the event with the fewest changeovers of WRs in the last 80 years? Owens, Beamon and Powell have all held it for such long times!
Vielleicht
 
Posts: 370
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:11 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby high knees » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:21 am

lonewolf wrote:
pickle47 wrote:Somewhere there lives a tall, skinny kid that is really fast...but not quite fast enough to win the sprints. And a prescient coach will take him aside, stare down the runway with him, and plant the seeds of Ann Arbor, Mexico City, and Tokyo in his mind and heart. And then, then we will see that 9m jump.

That is what we are all hoping for. In a generation, or two or three, 9.0m ( 29-6) jumps may become as common as 8.53m (28-0) jumps are now ( which is to say, about as scarce a hen's teeth).
For now, I think we are nibbling at the upper limit of human capability.


I disagree completely...in 2005 no one would've thought that anyone could run 9.59 and 19.19. The issue is that the current "would be" LJ record holder is probably playing in the NFL, CFL, AFL, NBA, the D League or overseas somewhere. There are super talented males out there, they just aren't wasting their time with track. More money, more scholarships, more opportunities, more attention. There is most likely an 8' HJer in there somewhere and a 75'+ thrower in there too. 12.6 scholarships broken up to serve 50 people and lack of sponsorships will always lose out to 12/85 full scholarships and minimum salaries ranging from 500k to 5m.....I'm just saying....
high knees
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby Pego » Tue Jul 02, 2013 3:39 am

high knees wrote:in 2005 no one would've thought that anyone could run 9.59 and 19.19.


An argument that "because nobody expected something somewhere means that something largely unrelated is likely" is a logical fallacy, a complete non-sequitur.
Pego
 
Posts: 10196
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby high knees » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:53 pm

Pego wrote:
high knees wrote:in 2005 no one would've thought that anyone could run 9.59 and 19.19.


An argument that "because nobody expected something somewhere means that something largely unrelated is likely" is a logical fallacy, a complete non-sequitur.


My point being that there are people out there that defy the "logic" that's out there. I remember an article that said that no one would break MJ's 19.32 until 2040 or something like that...now there are two men that have run faster...if the emphasis on track and field in the U.S. was anything like the emphasis in the Caribbean and Jamaica in particular, no records in the speed power events would still exist. What you have now is guys like Renaldo Nehemiah going STRAIGHT to football instead of setting WR's and THEN leaving for football.
high knees
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:27 pm

First, the paucity of ~29 foot jumps make it even more amazing how many of the world's total were made in the one competition at the Worlds.

Second, to get a feel for the progression of jumping, put in a reasonable value for Beamon's leap at sea level and with little wind (he likely was 2.5 or so as the wind readings were flawed). It did improve very little from Owens to Beamon's time, which is a little surprising because Owen's jump was not hugely further than others of his era (however, there was that war thing getting in the way....).

No, that is not me doing the Hulk stuff. The paucity of recent good jumpers is consistent with the thesis of some that the jumpers have become highly paid team sport members, especially football and maybe basketball.
26mi235
 
Posts: 16313
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby user4 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:28 pm

high knees wrote:
Pego wrote:
high knees wrote:in 2005 no one would've thought that anyone could run 9.59 and 19.19.


An argument that "because nobody expected something somewhere means that something largely unrelated is likely" is a logical fallacy, a complete non-sequitur.


My point being that there are people out there that defy the "logic" that's out there. I remember an article that said that no one would break MJ's 19.32 until 2040 or something like that...now there are two men that have run faster...if the emphasis on track and field in the U.S. was anything like the emphasis in the Caribbean and Jamaica in particular, no records in the speed power events would still exist. What you have now is guys like Renaldo Nehemiah going STRAIGHT to football instead of setting WR's and THEN leaving for football.


I have to agree with high knees, in this case the two events (100m & LJ) have allot of overlap. Does anyone doubt that Bolt, after 1 year of training for the LJ would produce at least an 8.5s per year. The NFL is not teaming with Bolts...so I would temper the notion that there are 8.5 long jumpers on every NFL/NBA sideline. That is a myth. Even the immensely talented M. Goodwin ended up under 8m at the London Olympic final. By the way take a look at the number of 8m+ finalists in the last 8 olympics. You will be hard pressed to tease out a statistically significant decrease of late. Considering the conditions at London I would not make much of a categorical statement about it. Rutherford was a big fast kid and he was on home turf. Certainly not one of the great OG long jump competitions but he beat some top tier athletes.
user4
 
Posts: 1431
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby tm71 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:39 pm

AFTERBURNER wrote:Is a 10m00 long jump possible?


please ! in a year where no one has jumped over 8.40 and a year after the worst olympic long jump competition in recent memory, we dare talk about 9, 9.5 and 10 meters ? i would be happy if we can see 2 or 3 jumpers over 28 feet again in the same season !
tm71
 
Posts: 2297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby user4 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:40 pm

lonewolf wrote:...
For now, I think we are nibbling at the upper limit of human capability.


but not the upper limit of runway and takeoff board bounce :)
user4
 
Posts: 1431
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby lonewolf » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:38 pm

My opinion than man has about maxed out in the LJ is based on the premise is that while athletes will continue to nibble away at records and there will be Beamonesque and Boltesque incidents, we have already had those moments in the 100m and LJ.

Beamon increased the LJ WR from 8.35 to 8.90 = .55m = a phenomal 6.58 %
Powell increased the LJ WR from 8.90 to 8.95 = .05m = 0.5%
Increase in LJ WR from 8.95 to 10.0 = 1.05m = 11.7 %
It gets tougher to add cms at the far end of the pit.

Bolt lowered the 100m WR from 9.77 to 9.74 = .03 sec = .3 %
Bolt lowered his own 100m WR from 9.74 to 9.69 = .05 sec =.51%
Bolt lowered his own 100m WR from 9.69 to 9.58 = .11 sec = 1.17%

To improve the LJ record from 8.95 to 10.0 m would equate, percentage wise, to lowering the 100 m record from 9.58 to 8.41.

Somebody can check my arithmatic but you get the idea. Ain't gonna happen soon, if ever.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8812
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby high knees » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:40 pm

lonewolf wrote:My opinion than man has about maxed out in the LJ is based on the premise is that while athletes will continue to nibble away at records and there will be Beamonesque and Boltesque incidents, we have already had those moments in the 100m and LJ.

Beamon increased the LJ WR from 8.35 to 8.90 = .55m = a phenomal 6.58 %
Powell increased the LJ WR from 8.90 to 8.95 = .05m = 0.5%
Increase in LJ WR from 8.95 to 10.0 = 1.05m = 11.7 %
It gets tougher to add cms at the far end of the pit.

Bolt lowered the 100m WR from 9.77 to 9.74 = .03 sec = .3 %
Bolt lowered his own 100m WR from 9.74 to 9.69 = .05 sec =.51%
Bolt lowered his own 100m WR from 9.69 to 9.58 = .11 sec = 1.17%

To improve the LJ record from 8.95 to 10.0 m would equate, percentage wise, to lowering the 100 m record from 9.58 to 8.41.

Somebody can check my arithmatic but you get the idea. Ain't gonna happen soon, if ever.


The question was "Is a 10m00 long jump possible?" And it's definitely possible......when or who is another story altogether....as long as there are people in the world who can run sub 10 and there are people who have a vertical leap of 45"+ (and you have more than a few of both) there's a possibility....
high knees
 
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby lonewolf » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:25 pm

AFTERBURNER wrote:Is a 10m00 long jump possible?

Oh well then. In a word: No
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8812
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby pickle47 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 9:45 pm

Most of us can't triple jump 10 meters.
pickle47
 
Posts: 473
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Another perfect day in So Cal

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby user4 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:59 am

lonewolf wrote:
AFTERBURNER wrote:Is a 10m00 long jump possible?

Oh well then. In a word: No


Im switching my opinion to no. The lonewolf percentages above are alarming...The fact that some heretofore undiscovered man might run 27mph and then the next day jump 40 inches off the ground tells me very very little about whether a man can jump 40in off the ground while running 27mph. No, it will be the running surfaces and boards that will lead to the greater improvements in jumping distance just as they have had a significant role in the 100 WR time.
Last edited by user4 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
user4
 
Posts: 1431
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: Long Jump ultimate barrier?

Postby AFTERBURNER » Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:03 am

Modifying running surfarces and boards for longer jumps would be CHEATING imho
AFTERBURNER
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:10 pm

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot], smc and 6 guests