Mary Cain's "perfect storm"


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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:18 pm

Cain's season has been long in time, but not in volume of races.
She ran sporadically in CC.
She ran a total of 5 races indoors (three 1 miles, one 2 mile, a 3K).
She' ran, prior to USATF, a total of 5 races outdoors (two 1500's, two 800's, and a 5K).
At USATF, she ran two 1500's, for a total of 12 track races, indoors and out.

Any collegian (or high schooler!!) ran probably twice as much, maybe three times as much!
Take Jordan Hasay, for example, since she now trains with Cain and Co.
How many collegiate races.....other than 10K's.....did Hasay run this year, in and out?
Then she's run, so far, four 10K's.....and she'll be running at least one more, two if she makes the "A"!

Cain is being trained, I'm sure, to handle the 3-race affair in Moscow.

But, like bobguild76 said, Cain isn't the only American woman running the 1500 in Moscow.
We could have FOUR, if Cory McGee makes a B. (I think she will!!)
And as I said in an earlier post, there is no one, African, European, or whatever, who can OUTkick Cain right now.
They can kick AS FAST AS her, but not faster!!
Same goes for Simpson and Moser!
Simpson is in the best shape of her life, IMO.
So is Moser.
Ditto Cain.
Simpson won Daegu with her kick.
Moser and Cain ran 57's at USATF!!

We might not just get a medal in the woman's 1500....we might SWEEP!!!! :D
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby DrJay » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:30 pm

DoubleRBar wrote:Check out Tim Layden's article in the latest Sports Illustrated on page 46. It is titled "Here Comes Mary Cain".


"She avoids track-website message boards, which can be vicious and are demographically disconnected from her world. 'All those old men [critiquing her],' she says." Hilarious!
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby lonewolf » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:40 pm

Smart girl.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:49 pm

DrJay wrote:
DoubleRBar wrote:Check out Tim Layden's article in the latest Sports Illustrated on page 46. It is titled "Here Comes Mary Cain".


"She avoids track-website message boards, which can be vicious and are demographically disconnected from her world. 'All those old men [critiquing her],' she says." Hilarious!


To a 17 year old.....anyone over 18 is an "old man"!! :wink:
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Rothosen » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:23 pm

But she reads all her facebook posts, and responds to quite a few...go figure
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Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bobguild76 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:43 pm

DrJay wrote:
DoubleRBar wrote:Check out Tim Layden's article in the latest Sports Illustrated on page 46. It is titled "Here Comes Mary Cain".


"She avoids track-website message boards, which can be vicious and are demographically disconnected from her world. 'All those old men [critiquing her],' she says." Hilarious!

I read that also. If she reads this thread though, she will have a different view of what all these old men (and younger women!) are saying about her. Go Mary!!!
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Brian » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:21 am

Rothosen wrote:
Samurai_Runner wrote:Before handing over a medal to her, people need to consider that there are 3 rounds (heats, semifinals, final) and she has never raced against this level of competition. She finished 6th at the WJ last year. Granted, she's much improved, but she is unproven in international senior competition.


Absolutely! Cain would have to run under 4:00 which I don't think will come this year at the end of two rounds. I actually don't think it will come this year at all but next. Kipyegon has had the practice of two World Championship victories, albeit Youth in 2011, and Junior in 2012. Something I believe is important while this board does not. Can Faith make it a three-peat? Possible. I will be surprised if Mary places as high as sixth. Don't be stunned if this plays out like 2007 with a sub four victory as well as perhaps needed for bronze.


We sort of addressed this very thing on the USATF-w1500 thread last week. My post:

Actually, I can see Cain ducking under 4:00 in either the heat or semifinal but proving she's human in the next race, whether semi or final, as accumulated CNS fatigue triumphs.

In other words, I think she has the talent to break four minutes, will be peaked at Moscow, and the pace in at least one of the qualifying rounds will put her in the ballpark for three laps (she was strong enough to run 15:45) and then--what I believe to be her greatest asset--her ingrained kick response will get her through at least 200-250 of the last 300 meters.

After that?

Well, that's why we watch these things!
:]


Master Po and others also weighed in on the subject.
.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bushop » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:21 am

Rothosen wrote:But she reads all her facebook posts, and responds to quite a few...go figure

If you're referring to her Facebook fan page one has no way to know if she, or someone else posing as her, is posting on that page... unless Cain admits to it.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Master Po » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:36 am

DrJay wrote:
DoubleRBar wrote:Check out Tim Layden's article in the latest Sports Illustrated on page 46. It is titled "Here Comes Mary Cain".


"She avoids track-website message boards, which can be vicious and are demographically disconnected from her world. 'All those old men [critiquing her],' she says." Hilarious!


I realize this is Tim Layden's take on things...but worth at least a brief comment here .I don't know about other T&F message boards re: Cain's rise this season, but nothing vicious here regarding Cain, and really nothing to speak of that is even "critiquing" her. Mostly what's here is enthusiastic appreciation of her and her coach(es), along with lots of discussion and meta-discussion about her season, and career so far, and lots of critiques of the discussions and meta-discussions, and meta-critiques of the varying levels of enthusiasm, discussion, meta-discussion, and meta-critique. How could an athlete not be interested in that? :)
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:26 am

Moser ran her down from a decent deficit, so clearly had a substantially faster finish at the end. If Moser can do it, so can some of the others, I think. Plus, if you are a 1:56/3:56 runner, kicking hard off of a 4:00 pace is easier than if you are a 1:59/4:05 runner.

I think Cain is better off in a modest but not slow race. She should do relatively well in the rounds because of her very good finish. However, making the Final is a tough standard; one I would have thought less than a pipe-dream eight months ago, now "too much to ask, not too much to hope". [Willie Nelson?]
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:14 am

The thing with Mary Cain......especially as her record-breaking season has progressed....is that I think we're still thinking of her in these various terms:

high schooler Mary Cain
16 (17) year old Mary Cain
teenager Mary Cain

and NOT as what she is (or has become)......
a National Class runner edging VERY close to WORLD Class runner!!

Sure, she is still just 17.....
still a high school student......
still a teenager.....

but she has met, and run with, some Olympic medalists (Mo Farah, Galen Rupp, etc)....
has beaten some top name Americans (whatever their excuses!!)....
has not only shattered numerous HSR's, but her times would be COLLEGIATE records, in some cases!!

She may still be a "child", but she's a grown adult in runner's terms!!
And at least in THAT arena, we need to start thinking of her that way!!!
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby KevinM » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:38 am

aaronk wrote:but her times would be COLLEGIATE records, in some cases!!


In which cases?

And at least in THAT arena, we need to start thinking of her that way!!!


No. We don't "need" to do anything. We just watch races.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby az2004 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:47 am

aaronk wrote:The thing with Mary Cain......especially as her record-breaking season has progressed....is that I think we're still thinking of her in these various terms:

high schooler Mary Cain
16 (17) year old Mary Cain
teenager Mary Cain

and NOT as what she is (or has become)......
a National Class runner edging VERY close to WORLD Class runner!!

Sure, she is still just 17.....
still a high school student......
still a teenager.....

but she has met, and run with, some Olympic medalists (Mo Farah, Galen Rupp, etc)....
has beaten some top name Americans (whatever their excuses!!)....
has not only shattered numerous HSR's, but her times would be COLLEGIATE records, in some cases!!

She may still be a "child", but she's a grown adult in runner's terms!!
And at least in THAT arena, we need to start thinking of her that way!!!



cain is stytill a kid, but at world juniors next year, she will be racing got gold all the record quest of 2013 will be replaced by medalquest in eugene
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:54 am

DrJay wrote:
DoubleRBar wrote:Check out Tim Layden's article in the latest Sports Illustrated on page 46. It is titled "Here Comes Mary Cain".


. 'All those old men [critiquing her],' she says." Hilarious!

Hey! I resemble that remark.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:05 am

KevinM wrote:
aaronk wrote:but her times would be COLLEGIATE records, in some cases!!


In which cases?

And at least in THAT arena, we need to start thinking of her that way!!!


No. We don't "need" to do anything. We just watch races.


I should have said "high on the Collegiate A-T lists".
Her 800 would be 4th best!
Her 1500 would be # 2.
Her 3K and 5K times would be further down the lists, but those times are nowhere near what she WOULD run...if she wants to!!
And her indoor mile best would top the OUTdoor mile CR!!

As to the latter point, I think (AGAIN!!), people are misconstruing what I say about Cain.
No, we don't "need" to do anything!
What I meant was, it seems people still think of her in terms of "HS runner, teenage runner, etc"....when her times (and victories and high placings in elite women's races) tell us she's an "adult in teenage clothing"!!
Even Tim Hutchings said as much during one of her indoor miles....."She's 16, but she runs like she's 26!!".
As a RUNNER, she's an adult.......even if she's still "just a teenager".

It's the PERCEPTION that the label infers!
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby KevinM » Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:08 am

aaronk wrote:As to the latter point, I think (AGAIN!!), people are misconstruing what I say about Cain.


If you repeatedly feel that your message is being misinterpreted, perhaps it's time to work on the message.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby DaveyGuy » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:42 pm

Does anyone think Cain "sand baged" her 5K of 15:45.46 ? I think she did.
I think that AlSal just wanted her to run a time to get her in the USATF 5K if things did not go right in the 1500. What one would call a plan "B".
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby ExRun » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:22 pm

DaveyGuy wrote:Does anyone think Cain "sand baged" her 5K of 15:45.46 ? I think she did.
I think that AlSal just wanted her to run a time to get her in the USATF 5K if things did not go right in the 1500. What one would call a plan "B".


I think she could have run faster, but not too much faster. She commented jokingly after the race that she really didn't like the 5K. I expect her to be a world beater at the 800 &1500, but I will be pleasantly surprised if she achieves the same high level of success in the 5K. Physically, it looks to me that her speed/endurance capacities are more to the speed side.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:29 pm

I think we can spare ourselves a lot of analyzing/guessing/potificating/ as to the psyche of Mary Cain by her response to Louis Johnson in the post race interview, "....what was she thinking when she found herself in 6th place with 150 meters to go? "
and I paraphrase.. " I wasn't thinking anything. I just ran like an animal."
It ain't that complicated, folks. :)
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:08 pm

aaronk wrote:Cain isn't the only American woman running the 1500 in Moscow.
We could have FOUR, if Cory McGee makes a B. (I think she will!!)

We might not just get a medal in the woman's 1500....we might SWEEP!!!! :D

Just when I thought your insanity of the spring was starting to subside . . . as I said then - love the enthusiasm, but seriously doubt the tether to reality!!
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:49 am

Master Po wrote:
DrJay wrote:
DoubleRBar wrote:Check out Tim Layden's article in the latest Sports Illustrated on page 46. It is titled "Here Comes Mary Cain".


"She avoids track-website message boards, which can be vicious and are demographically disconnected from her world. 'All those old men [critiquing her],' she says." Hilarious!


I realize this is Tim Layden's take on things...but worth at least a brief comment here .I don't know about other T&F message boards re: Cain's rise this season, but nothing vicious here regarding Cain, and really nothing to speak of that is even "critiquing" her. Mostly what's here is enthusiastic appreciation of her and her coach(es), along with lots of discussion and meta-discussion about her season, and career so far, and lots of critiques of the discussions and meta-discussions, and meta-critiques of the varying levels of enthusiasm, discussion, meta-discussion, and meta-critique. How could an athlete not be interested in that? :)


While acknowledging your using the word "mostly", aaronk has been critical of Salazar's decisions regarding Cain's racing many times on these boards.

The best thing any athlete can do is stay completely away from anyone or anything that intentionally or accidentally puts a wedge between themselves and their coach.
.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 02, 2013 12:11 pm

[quote="aaronk"]The thing with Mary Cain......especially as her record-breaking season has progressed....is that I think we're still thinking of her in these various terms:
high schooler Mary Cain
16 (17) year old Mary Cain
teenager Mary Cain

and NOT as what she is (or has become)......
a National Class runner edging VERY close to WORLD Class runner!!

Sure, she is still just 17.....
still a high school student......
still a teenager.....

but she has met, and run with, some Olympic medalists (Mo Farah, Galen Rupp, etc)....
has beaten some top name Americans (whatever their excuses!!)....
has not only shattered numerous HSR's, but her times would be COLLEGIATE records, in some cases!!

She may still be a "child", but she's a grown adult in runner's terms!!
And at least in THAT arena, we need to start thinking of her that way!!![/
quote]


This shows in a nutshell why you need to temper your opinions/posts on her running career.

It's not about her talent or ability to run fast. It's about her PHYSICAL MATURATION.

If the cellular strength that comes ONLY from naturally progressive physical maturation isn't yet present for the level of work intensity being performed, the body will inevitably break down because it isn't fully recovering over the long term. Long term--as in year to year, not month to month or race to race.

That's Salazar's greatest quality as a coach: Keeping others from making the mistake of overdoing it the way he did.

Cain is a young woman of incredible talent. But she IS a young woman. She has NOT attained full physical maturation.

Which is why Salazar is bringing her along at a pace that doesn't fully satisfy your projected ego regarding her race results.
.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:01 pm

Brian (and any other interested parties):

Actually, I think what Salazar's done with Cain is WAY beyond what I imagined would happen....when he first spoke of a "10 year program".
I thought for sure he'd LIMIT her racing, or record-breaking attempts, and concentrate mostly, if not exclusively, on improving her "biomechanical deficiencies", like her wild arm swing.

So when he put her into FIVE indoor races, I was VERY surprised!!
Ditto with her outdoor campaign....though I admit to being impatient for it (her outdoor season) to begin (back before Drake was announced).

As for her "physical maturation", I wasn't (and still don't!) paying attention to that. Never was into physiology or anatomy! It was strictly about her running abilities and potential....based on her past times, and current results.
Thus, when Salazar said she was in 4:25 shape (prior to Millrose, but after her 4:32), I predicted she could run 4:05 for 1500 THIS year!!
My prediction came true!

As for my "projected ego", WHAT??????
My "ego" has nothing to do with my predictions for Cain (or anyone else!).
They have to do with what my 50 years of studying athlete's marks, and their progress, and their marks over various distances, not just their specialty, tells me!!

Cain had run 4:11 in 2012.
Salazar said she could run 4:25.....which would bring her by 1500 in about 4:08.
That's already a 3 second improvement on her then-PR.
So I gave her another 3 second improvement....down to 4:05, in my prediction.
Had NOTHING to do with "ego"!!!

Ditto with my current predictions of a possible sub-4:00....or other improvements in her times.
(Salazar has apparently told her she can run 1:58 for 800!! Is that HIS "ego" projection?? Hell NO!!!)

BTW, as to her physical "build", I like the fact she's 5-7 in height!
I think her power and speed come PARTLY from that!!
If she were 5-2 or so, I'd think she'd have less of a kick or good stride length, etc.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:26 pm

aaronk wrote:
Brian wrote:If the cellular strength that comes ONLY from naturally progressive physical maturation isn't yet present for the level of work intensity being performed, the body will inevitably break down because it isn't fully recovering over the long term. Long term--as in year to year, not month to month or race to race.
That's Salazar's greatest quality as a coach: Keeping others from making the mistake of overdoing it the way he did.
Cain is a young woman of incredible talent. But she IS a young woman. She has NOT attained full physical maturation.

As for her "physical maturation", I wasn't (and still don't!) paying attention to that. Never was into physiology or anatomy!

I detect a disconnect . . .
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:14 pm

aaronk wrote:Actually, I think what Salazar's done with Cain is WAY beyond what I imagined would happen....


Selective memory is so convenient.

[Among others:]

In a post on May 22, you screamed bloody murder about Salazar "holding her back" to "only" a qualifying time in the 5,000m. race at Portland:

"Shit, she can run that in her sleep..."

"Boggles the mind!!"

That's a hard critique of Salazar's planning; you backed off when others (many others) chided you for your comment.

The previous day, you wrote in multiple posts that you were planning on attending the meet in Portland, seeking transportation to the venue.

"BTW....I'm going to see Mary Cain run.......but the entire meet looks to be VERY good!!"

After reading of Salazar's plan for Cain to run a "...very controlled" race, on May 22, you also wrote: "this is a HUGE disappointment (caps yours)."

This is an example of personal ego: Cain and her coach weren't doing something YOU wanted them to do in order to satisfy YOUR desire to watch her run very fast. In other words, you were planning to attend the meet, bought your meet ticket, were hustling to get transportation from Bellingham to Portland, and then...

That bastard Salazar wasn't going to let her run as fast as she could so you could enjoy watching her do so. [My words.]


It's fine to be disappointed someone is going to be "jogging" after all your effort to attend the meet. But this goes beyond that level. It's projection of (denied) ego seeking gratification: You exist to make ME happy; YOU race to make ME happy.

[If you don't understand ego projection/gratification, or the concept of physical maturation, look them up. For that matter, if you don't understand physical maturation, you maybe shouldn't be writing critiques of any young athlete's training and racing program, period.]


If that's not your intention--honestly, not simply denial--you're doing a great job of portraying it otherwise. Many people besides myself have noticed and called you on it.

All harmless now, but things have a way of potentially escalating to "creep" factor and perhaps beyond. If not in actuality, then in perception.

I wrote my above post hoping this might qualify as a teachable moment and might get through to you.

Sounds like you still don't get it, probably because you don't want to get it.

Oh, well. Bring on the court order.
:]
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:24 pm

BTW, I did NOT go to the PTF!
I had a physical problem at that time---just before leaving-----that prevented my going.
I still have the UNused ticket!!

(Great souvenir! :D )
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Rothosen » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:39 pm

I think it's great that we have a whole group of under twenty runners competeing at a world class level. This should sey up a great olympics in three years.
Last edited by Rothosen on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mary Cain's Perfect Storm

Postby DrJay » Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:47 pm

I Me Mine (with credit to George Harrison.)

aaronk wrote:
....Actually, I think what Salazar's done...
....beyond what I imagined....
....I thought for sure he'd.....
....I was VERY surprised!!.....
....though I admit to being impatient....
....I wasn't (and still don't!) paying attention....
....[I] never was into physiology....
....I predicted she could....
....My prediction came true!....
....with my predictions for Cain....
....my 50 years of studying....
....tells me!!....
....I gave her another 3 second improvement....
....in my prediction.
....my current predictions of a possible....
....I like the fact she's....
....I think her power....
....I'd think she'd have less....
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:09 pm

Next time, I'll (sic!) try to be more like Norman Mailer. :P

The Advocate looked into his bag of tricks, knowing he would find what he'd thought he'd forgotten that morning as Norman Mailer was wont to do.
But Norman, being who he is, would have laughed at that asinine Maileresque response, as Norman often told one of his 18 wives!! :wink:
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Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bobguild76 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:19 pm

Good Golly, Miss Molly! Is this a thread about what we think regarding Mary Cain's amazing season? ... or a thread about what we think the other guy is really thinking ... parsing the words to ascertain the true meaning behind what he (or she) really meant ... and using previous posts to see if what he thought before the event is similar to what he thought after the event ... or is there some inconsistency in the evolving thinking ...

HELP ME!!!!!!!!!

1. Mary Cain is having a AMAZING season,
2. We all hope she lives long and prospers,
3. While we all have strong opinions (hey, we're on the T&FN Message Board, so already we know we're crazier than the average bear),
4. We're all grateful Alberto is coaching her, because
5. He's a whole lot better at it than we are, and
6. Mary Cain is having an AMAZING season.

:D :roll:
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:07 pm

bobguild76 wrote:Good Golly, Miss Molly! Is this a thread about what we think regarding Mary Cain's amazing season? ... or a thread about what we think the other guy is really thinking ... parsing the words to ascertain the true meaning behind what he (or she) really meant ... and using previous posts to see if what he thought before the event is similar to what he thought after the event ... or is there some inconsistency in the evolving thinking ...

HELP ME!!!!!!!!! :roll:


Not sure what you mean by inconsistency in the evolving thinking. Also don't know how far up the thread you've read, but my initial response today was to the July 1 post (yesterday) telling us we, as a group, need to [ignore her physical maturation level and] begin thinking of Mary Cain as an adult, simply because of her outstanding times. After that, examples of previous posts repeated to spark memory seemed appropriate.
.
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Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bobguild76 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:28 pm

Brian wrote:
bobguild76 wrote:Good Golly, Miss Molly! Is this a thread about what we think regarding Mary Cain's amazing season? ... or a thread about what we think the other guy is really thinking ... parsing the words to ascertain the true meaning behind what he (or she) really meant ... and using previous posts to see if what he thought before the event is similar to what he thought after the event ... or is there some inconsistency in the evolving thinking ...

HELP ME!!!!!!!!! :roll:


Not sure what you mean by inconsistency in the evolving thinking. Also don't know how far up the thread you've read, but my initial response today was to the July 1 post (yesterday) telling us we, as a group, need to [ignore her physical maturation level and] begin thinking of Mary Cain as an adult, simply because of her outstanding times. After that, examples of previous posts repeated to spark memory seemed appropriate.
.

Nothing in particular directed to your comments. I enjoy the back and forth. As with most threads, we begin with comments about the topic at hand, then respond to one another, sometimes go through deep disagreement, then back to the topic at hand, and so on. It would be a barrel of fun for all of us to have these conversations before/during/after a track meet with beer and pizza in abundance.

You're right on regarding Cain being a 17 yr old, with lots of physical maturation ahead of her. I love your analysis in that matter. She got speed, to be sure, and amazing talent ... and it will be interesting to see how she progresses through the 18-21 age changes. None of can predict how it will develop, but here's hoping she stays on the scene for many years.

I love aaronk's passion and willingness to wear it on his sleeve, in this thread and anywhere else he posts. But I can't divine whether his ego is too big or too small, and I don't care. I just enjoy what he brings to the table.

As far as inconsistencies ... I go through the same pendulum swings of "She's running too much too early!" to "She's gonna go sub-4" to "She's gonna throw a rod one of these races". ... and none of it matters to her because I'm not her family and I'm not her coach. But everyone on this thread has an opinion, and I love watching the back and forth.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby lonewolf » Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:37 pm

I don't know if Mary Cain is running too much, too little, too fast, too slow, too far, too short or just right. I just know it makes me chuckle every time I play back her, " I just ran like an animal" comment. :)
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Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bobguild76 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:02 pm

lonewolf wrote:I don't know if Mary Cain is running too much, too little, too fast, too slow, too far, too short or just right. I just know it makes me chuckle every time I play back her, " I just ran like an animal" comment. :)

Ditto!!!
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bushop » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:08 pm

bobguild76 wrote:... regarding Cain being a 17 yr old, with lots of physical maturation ahead of her.

Does anyone else think seventeen can be way past the end of natural maturation age for some?
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:11 pm

[quote="bobguild76Nothing in particular directed to your comments. I enjoy the back and forth. As with most threads, we begin with comments about the topic at hand, then respond to one another, sometimes go through deep disagreement, then back to the topic at hand, and so on. It would be a barrel of fun for all of us to have these conversations before/during/after a track meet with beer and pizza in abundance.

I love aaronk's passion and willingness to wear it on his sleeve, in this thread and anywhere else he posts. But I can't divine whether his ego is too big or too small, and I don't care. I just enjoy what he brings to the table.

As far as inconsistencies ... I go through the same pendulum swings of "She's running too much too early!" to "She's gonna go sub-4" to "She's gonna throw a rod one of these races". ... and none of it matters to her because I'm not her family and I'm not her coach. But everyone on this thread has an opinion, and I love watching the back and forth.[/quote]


Thanks for the clarification. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't being confusing.

I have actually defended aaronk's enthusiasm in the past, and still would do so. But I believe his attitude toward the training and competitions of young athletes is very unrealistic and driven solely by the point of view of a fan.

For example, see his posts from last May 6, 2012, on page #3 of the thread RE: USA's 29 Olympic medals-Moscow contenders wherein he proposes all US high school athletes in 11th and 12th grades begin training and competing with international adult implements and over international distances (which bushop updated today):

[After declaring himself to be serious]

"Can't they handle a 5k or 10k or a 3000SC (not a 2000SC) on the track, and an 8000 or 10000 in CC??
I've known 10 year olds who have run marathons!!"


Granted, these are dated, but this attitude seems to be consistent with his beliefs concerning Cain, so it doesn't seem much has changed.


He's not the first to hold this belief that children/young people are just adults in small bodies. There are more than a few high school coaches who have tried to get great results by training high school athletes at a collegiate (or more) level and ended up taking them beyond their physical maturation level. After two years or so, they're toast.

This is the opposite of what Salazar is doing (and other good coaches have done).
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Last edited by Brian on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:14 pm

bushop wrote:
bobguild76 wrote:... regarding Cain being a 17 yr old, with lots of physical maturation ahead of her.

Does anyone else think seventeen can be way past the end of natural maturation age for some?


For some power athletes, perhaps.

But barring illness or injury setbacks, there is no distance runner who will do better at 17 than at 24.

[They may specialize and then shift the emphasis to other (longer) events so on paper they don't "run an 800 faster" than they did x-years ago, but that's different.]
.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bobguild76 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:21 pm

bushop wrote:
bobguild76 wrote:... regarding Cain being a 17 yr old, with lots of physical maturation ahead of her.

Does anyone else think seventeen can be way past the end of natural maturation age for some?

Good question. I probably should have said physiological maturation, or something similar. Whether a Cain, Decker, Ryun, or Bob Mathias, some people reach physical maturation earlier than others. But even then, there is the years long process of putting in the miles and reps that continue to develop the cardio system, the muscle memory, and the racing wisdom. Galen Rupp would be a good recent example. He may have been physically developed at age 17 or 18, but continued dedication has refined his talent and placed him at a much higher level. I bet that even as precocious and amazing talent as Sammy Wanjiru (WR at half-mar at 18!!) would have continued to get better well into his 20s. Shame we'll never know. :(
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:05 pm

bobguild76 wrote:
bushop wrote:
bobguild76 wrote:... regarding Cain being a 17 yr old, with lots of physical maturation ahead of her.

Does anyone else think seventeen can be way past the end of natural maturation age for some?

Good question. I probably should have said physiological maturation, or something similar. Whether a Cain, Decker, Ryun, or Bob Mathias, some people reach physical maturation earlier than others. But even then, there is the years long process of putting in the miles and reps that continue to develop the cardio system, the muscle memory, and the racing wisdom. Galen Rupp would be a good recent example. He may have been physically developed at age 17 or 18, but continued dedication has refined his talent and placed him at a much higher level. I bet that even as precocious and amazing talent as Sammy Wanjiru (WR at half-mar at 18!!) would have continued to get better well into his 20s. Shame we'll never know. :(


Regarding physical maturation at a young age:

I keep returning, rightly or wrongly, to the example of Hannah Carson.
In the 8th grade, she threw the javelin 173-7.
It was better than any high schooler had thrown by then-----high schooler, of course, meaning 9th through 12th grades....NOT 8th grade!!
Mostly, I believe, because of injuries, she never surpassed that mark throughout her 4 years of HS....and not even in her freshman year of college!!
Why?

I'm not a coach, or a physiologist or knowing anything about a youngster's maturation process (except from knowing what I went through, or my friends), but it would seem to me that, for a runner, there would not be as much emphasis placed on the body's development, as with, say a javelin thrower.

A runner needs to just put one foot in front of the other.
Arm carriage, stride length, # of miles run in training, doing weights, etc are all important, yes, but running is just......running.
With the javelin (or other more technical field events), the body needs to be developed to handle the different stresses put on it in the field events, to learn the different techniques, to move from one poundage of implement to another, or from a shorter to a longer pole in the vault.
From what I can tell just by observation, Mary Cain's body build doesn't appear any different than the older women she's been competing against this year.
Without knowing her age, she LOOKS basically the same as a Uceny or a Mackey or a Simpson.....as far as her body build is concerned.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby az2004 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:36 am

for me cain edge is her 800 metere speed

as she ages will she maintain the sub 60 last lap and as she puts on the mils and build strength, her ability to kick will tell us ow good she will be

she looks way moer atctcially adavanced than a yound decker was

suspect Salazar knows what to do
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