Mary Cain's "perfect storm"


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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:11 pm

[quote="bobguild76Nothing in particular directed to your comments. I enjoy the back and forth. As with most threads, we begin with comments about the topic at hand, then respond to one another, sometimes go through deep disagreement, then back to the topic at hand, and so on. It would be a barrel of fun for all of us to have these conversations before/during/after a track meet with beer and pizza in abundance.

I love aaronk's passion and willingness to wear it on his sleeve, in this thread and anywhere else he posts. But I can't divine whether his ego is too big or too small, and I don't care. I just enjoy what he brings to the table.

As far as inconsistencies ... I go through the same pendulum swings of "She's running too much too early!" to "She's gonna go sub-4" to "She's gonna throw a rod one of these races". ... and none of it matters to her because I'm not her family and I'm not her coach. But everyone on this thread has an opinion, and I love watching the back and forth.[/quote]


Thanks for the clarification. Just wanted to be sure I wasn't being confusing.

I have actually defended aaronk's enthusiasm in the past, and still would do so. But I believe his attitude toward the training and competitions of young athletes is very unrealistic and driven solely by the point of view of a fan.

For example, see his posts from last May 6, 2012, on page #3 of the thread RE: USA's 29 Olympic medals-Moscow contenders wherein he proposes all US high school athletes in 11th and 12th grades begin training and competing with international adult implements and over international distances (which bushop updated today):

[After declaring himself to be serious]

"Can't they handle a 5k or 10k or a 3000SC (not a 2000SC) on the track, and an 8000 or 10000 in CC??
I've known 10 year olds who have run marathons!!"


Granted, these are dated, but this attitude seems to be consistent with his beliefs concerning Cain, so it doesn't seem much has changed.


He's not the first to hold this belief that children/young people are just adults in small bodies. There are more than a few high school coaches who have tried to get great results by training high school athletes at a collegiate (or more) level and ended up taking them beyond their physical maturation level. After two years or so, they're toast.

This is the opposite of what Salazar is doing (and other good coaches have done).
.
Last edited by Brian on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:14 pm

bushop wrote:
bobguild76 wrote:... regarding Cain being a 17 yr old, with lots of physical maturation ahead of her.

Does anyone else think seventeen can be way past the end of natural maturation age for some?


For some power athletes, perhaps.

But barring illness or injury setbacks, there is no distance runner who will do better at 17 than at 24.

[They may specialize and then shift the emphasis to other (longer) events so on paper they don't "run an 800 faster" than they did x-years ago, but that's different.]
.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bobguild76 » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:21 pm

bushop wrote:
bobguild76 wrote:... regarding Cain being a 17 yr old, with lots of physical maturation ahead of her.

Does anyone else think seventeen can be way past the end of natural maturation age for some?

Good question. I probably should have said physiological maturation, or something similar. Whether a Cain, Decker, Ryun, or Bob Mathias, some people reach physical maturation earlier than others. But even then, there is the years long process of putting in the miles and reps that continue to develop the cardio system, the muscle memory, and the racing wisdom. Galen Rupp would be a good recent example. He may have been physically developed at age 17 or 18, but continued dedication has refined his talent and placed him at a much higher level. I bet that even as precocious and amazing talent as Sammy Wanjiru (WR at half-mar at 18!!) would have continued to get better well into his 20s. Shame we'll never know. :(
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 02, 2013 10:05 pm

bobguild76 wrote:
bushop wrote:
bobguild76 wrote:... regarding Cain being a 17 yr old, with lots of physical maturation ahead of her.

Does anyone else think seventeen can be way past the end of natural maturation age for some?

Good question. I probably should have said physiological maturation, or something similar. Whether a Cain, Decker, Ryun, or Bob Mathias, some people reach physical maturation earlier than others. But even then, there is the years long process of putting in the miles and reps that continue to develop the cardio system, the muscle memory, and the racing wisdom. Galen Rupp would be a good recent example. He may have been physically developed at age 17 or 18, but continued dedication has refined his talent and placed him at a much higher level. I bet that even as precocious and amazing talent as Sammy Wanjiru (WR at half-mar at 18!!) would have continued to get better well into his 20s. Shame we'll never know. :(


Regarding physical maturation at a young age:

I keep returning, rightly or wrongly, to the example of Hannah Carson.
In the 8th grade, she threw the javelin 173-7.
It was better than any high schooler had thrown by then-----high schooler, of course, meaning 9th through 12th grades....NOT 8th grade!!
Mostly, I believe, because of injuries, she never surpassed that mark throughout her 4 years of HS....and not even in her freshman year of college!!
Why?

I'm not a coach, or a physiologist or knowing anything about a youngster's maturation process (except from knowing what I went through, or my friends), but it would seem to me that, for a runner, there would not be as much emphasis placed on the body's development, as with, say a javelin thrower.

A runner needs to just put one foot in front of the other.
Arm carriage, stride length, # of miles run in training, doing weights, etc are all important, yes, but running is just......running.
With the javelin (or other more technical field events), the body needs to be developed to handle the different stresses put on it in the field events, to learn the different techniques, to move from one poundage of implement to another, or from a shorter to a longer pole in the vault.
From what I can tell just by observation, Mary Cain's body build doesn't appear any different than the older women she's been competing against this year.
Without knowing her age, she LOOKS basically the same as a Uceny or a Mackey or a Simpson.....as far as her body build is concerned.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby az2004 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:36 am

for me cain edge is her 800 metere speed

as she ages will she maintain the sub 60 last lap and as she puts on the mils and build strength, her ability to kick will tell us ow good she will be

she looks way moer atctcially adavanced than a yound decker was

suspect Salazar knows what to do
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bushop » Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:30 pm

aaronk wrote:Regarding physical maturation at a young age:
I keep returning, rightly or wrongly, to the example of Hannah Carson.
In the 8th grade, she threw the javelin 173-7. Mostly, I believe, because of injuries, she never surpassed that mark throughout her 4 years of HS....and not even in her freshman year of college!!

Seems like javelin is an odd event for this discussion.
Due to the aerodynamic nature of the event some javelin throwers, and to a lesser extent discus throwers, have the one–off massive personal best, never to be reached again.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby DrJay » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:18 pm

DrJay wrote:
DoubleRBar wrote:Check out Tim Layden's article in the latest Sports Illustrated on page 46. It is titled "Here Comes Mary Cain".


"She avoids track-website message boards, which can be vicious and are demographically disconnected from her world. 'All those old men [critiquing her],' she says." Hilarious!


DrJay on NPR, now in Sports Illustrated, letter to the editor. As submitted, it read:

I'm one of the "old men" Mary Cain alludes to (Here Comes Mary Cain), those who frequent the Track and Field News Magazine message board. While the rare person is already critiquing and second-guessing her racing schedule and future plans, the well-informed majority of message board Old Men have expressed only excitement, amazement, and joy over her 2013 season. Whatever happens in Europe and the Moscow World Championships is just icing on this year's cake. We hope she has a long, successful, and rewarding career. With Alberto Salazar's wisdom and guidance, may the inevitable setbacks be few and far between. We especially hope she retains her gushing youthful enthusiasm for a long, long time.

Jay "Old Man" Kinsman

It was published as:

While some people are second-guessing Cain's racing schedule and future plans, the well-informed majority has expressed only excitement, amazement, and joy over her 2013 season. Whatever happens in Europe and at the Moscow World Championships is just icing on this year's cake. I hope she retains her youthful enthusiasm for a long, long time.

Jay Kinsman


Hardly worth writing a letter to them. Sliced and diced and made sterile and so PC.
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Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby bobguild76 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:53 pm

DrJay wrote: . . . It was published as:

While some people are second-guessing Cain's racing schedule and future plans, the well-informed majority has expressed only excitement, amazement, and joy over her 2013 season. Whatever happens in Europe and at the Moscow World Championships is just icing on this year's cake. I hope she retains her youthful enthusiasm for a long, long time.

Jay Kinsman


Hardly worth writing a letter to them. Sliced and diced and made sterile and so PC.

True ... but at least they published part of your letter. Thanks for standing up for all us "Old Men"!
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby Blues » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:00 pm

aaronk wrote:
Regarding physical maturation at a young age:

I keep returning, rightly or wrongly, to the example of Hannah Carson.
In the 8th grade, she threw the javelin 173-7.
It was better than any high schooler had thrown by then-----high schooler, of course, meaning 9th through 12th grades....NOT 8th grade!!
Mostly, I believe, because of injuries, she never surpassed that mark throughout her 4 years of HS....and not even in her freshman year of college!!
Why?

I'm not a coach, or a physiologist or knowing anything about a youngster's maturation process (except from knowing what I went through, or my friends), but it would seem to me that, for a runner, there would not be as much emphasis placed on the body's development, as with, say a javelin thrower.




Aaron, I'm sure you know this, but keep in mind that in 2008, 2010, and 2011, Hannah Carson was the Arizona state high school champion in both the shot put and discus, and in 2011 she also finished 2nd in the state in the high jump, jumping 5'8" which was 5 inches above her 5'3" height. She also long jumped 18' 2 1/4" that year. So her training didn't allow her to dedicate most of her time to the javelin. At 5'3", it might also be possible that she was slightly limited in the javelin by the leverage factor.

In her first outdoor collegiate meet, she was injured and missed the rest of the 2012 season. This season, she threw the javelin 171'1" breaking the Texas Tech school record, while also regularly competing in the discus. She has 3 more years of eligibility left at Texas Tech. Give her some time...
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby aaronk » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:23 pm

Blues wrote:
aaronk wrote:
Regarding physical maturation at a young age:

I keep returning, rightly or wrongly, to the example of Hannah Carson.
In the 8th grade, she threw the javelin 173-7.
It was better than any high schooler had thrown by then-----high schooler, of course, meaning 9th through 12th grades....NOT 8th grade!!
Mostly, I believe, because of injuries, she never surpassed that mark throughout her 4 years of HS....and not even in her freshman year of college!!
Why?

I'm not a coach, or a physiologist or knowing anything about a youngster's maturation process (except from knowing what I went through, or my friends), but it would seem to me that, for a runner, there would not be as much emphasis placed on the body's development, as with, say a javelin thrower.




Aaron, I'm sure you know this, but keep in mind that in 2008, 2010, and 2011, Hannah Carson was the Arizona state high school champion in both the shot put and discus, and in 2011 she also finished 2nd in the state in the high jump, jumping 5'8" which was 5 inches above her 5'3" height. She also long jumped 18' 2 1/4" that year. So her training didn't allow her to dedicate most of her time to the javelin. At 5'3", it might also be possible that she was slightly limited in the javelin by the leverage factor.

In her first outdoor collegiate meet, she was injured and missed the rest of the 2012 season. This season, she threw the javelin 171'1" breaking the Texas Tech school record, while also regularly competing in the discus. She has 3 more years of eligibility left at Texas Tech. Give her some time...


Thanks for the info on Carson.
Didn't know she was that versatile!!
Thought she was a JT specialist!!
She sounds like she might do well in a Hept!!
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby tandfman » Fri Jul 19, 2013 5:36 pm

DrJay wrote:
DrJay wrote:
DoubleRBar wrote:Check out Tim Layden's article in the latest Sports Illustrated on page 46. It is titled "Here Comes Mary Cain".


"She avoids track-website message boards, which can be vicious and are demographically disconnected from her world. 'All those old men [critiquing her],' she says." Hilarious!


DrJay on NPR, now in Sports Illustrated, letter to the editor. As submitted, it read:

I'm one of the "old men" Mary Cain alludes to (Here Comes Mary Cain), those who frequent the Track and Field News Magazine message board. While the rare person is already critiquing and second-guessing her racing schedule and future plans, the well-informed majority of message board Old Men have expressed only excitement, amazement, and joy over her 2013 season. Whatever happens in Europe and the Moscow World Championships is just icing on this year's cake. We hope she has a long, successful, and rewarding career. With Alberto Salazar's wisdom and guidance, may the inevitable setbacks be few and far between. We especially hope she retains her gushing youthful enthusiasm for a long, long time.

Jay "Old Man" Kinsman

It was published as:

While some people are second-guessing Cain's racing schedule and future plans, the well-informed majority has expressed only excitement, amazement, and joy over her 2013 season. Whatever happens in Europe and at the Moscow World Championships is just icing on this year's cake. I hope she retains her youthful enthusiasm for a long, long time.

Jay Kinsman

Hardly worth writing a letter to them. Sliced and diced and made sterile and so PC.

Reasonable edit, IMHO, given their likely space limitations.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby lonewolf » Fri Jul 19, 2013 7:55 pm

An excellent letter..both versions.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:47 am

I think that record throw was a one-off; she was very good but that throw was way above her other throws. Thus, it is misleading as she might have just hit 160' and we would have thought she was great for a kid. Her size might hinder her some, as the lever arm is short.
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Re: Mary Cain's "perfect storm"

Postby gh » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:49 am

from the July 2009 T&FN

<<Prep javelin star Hannah Carson suffered an ACL tear playing soccer in January and had surgery on her right knee. She wore a large brace while throwing this season.>>
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