Chase the A and B status


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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby donley2 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:27 am

This not really big news (but a good excuse to bump this thread), USATF 1500 7th placer David Torrence has an "A" with his 3.34.06 in Tomblaine yesterday.

http://www.tilastopaja.org/db/toplist.p ... eason=2013
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby exdrake » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:55 am

3:34.19 (you posted the time of guy immediately ahead of Torrence).
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby tandfman » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:53 pm

If USATF follows its own published rules, Torrence's time will not put him on the Moscow team, no matter what anyone else does between now and the entry deadline.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:59 pm

tandfman wrote:If USATF follows its own published rules, Torrence's time will not put him on the Moscow team, no matter what anyone else does between now and the entry deadline.


Not quite true, as the overriding determinant is to have the slots filled. If, at the end of the day the only way to get a third slot is to have Torrance in, they might do that. The problem is the processing etc.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby tandfman » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:04 pm

26mi235 wrote:
tandfman wrote:If USATF follows its own published rules, Torrence's time will not put him on the Moscow team, no matter what anyone else does between now and the entry deadline.

Not quite true, as the overriding determinant is to have the slots filled. If, at the end of the day the only way to get a third slot is to have Torrance in, they might do that. The problem is the processing etc.

That's not the way I read what they published. They say they'll go below the top 4 in the Nationals only for athletes who have met the applicable standard at or prior to the Nationals.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby donley2 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:09 pm

tandfman wrote:If USATF follows its own published rules, Torrence's time will not put him on the Moscow team, no matter what anyone else does between now and the entry deadline.


Don't know that the official rules have said in the past, but there is almost certainly precedent for entering people who did not meet the officially stated guidelines in the past.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby DrJay » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:10 pm

tandfman wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
tandfman wrote:If USATF follows its own published rules, Torrence's time will not put him on the Moscow team, no matter what anyone else does between now and the entry deadline.

Not quite true, as the overriding determinant is to have the slots filled. If, at the end of the day the only way to get a third slot is to have Torrance in, they might do that. The problem is the processing etc.

That's not the way I read what they published. They say they'll go below the top 4 in the Nationals only for athletes who have met the applicable standard at or prior to the Nationals.


I seem to remember that as well. Not sure that makes sense....fill the slots if able, even it's the last place finisher at USATF.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:30 pm

DrJay wrote:I seem to remember that as well. Not sure that makes sense....fill the slots if able, even it's the last place finisher at USATF.


At the beginning of the 'rules' that is what it says. So, are they going to follow all of the rule details or their Rule #1 (or #0)?
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby gh » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:46 pm

donley2 wrote:
tandfman wrote:If USATF follows its own published rules, Torrence's time will not put him on the Moscow team, no matter what anyone else does between now and the entry deadline.


Don't know that the official rules have said in the past, but there is almost certainly precedent for entering people who did not meet the officially stated guidelines in the past.


I can't name chapter and verse, but they have "filled" in the past. Pretty sure you'll find a Breaux Greer instance.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Blues » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:22 pm

gh wrote:
donley2 wrote:
tandfman wrote:If USATF follows its own published rules, Torrence's time will not put him on the Moscow team, no matter what anyone else does between now and the entry deadline.


Don't know that the official rules have said in the past, but there is almost certainly precedent for entering people who did not meet the officially stated guidelines in the past.


I can't name chapter and verse, but they have "filled" in the past. Pretty sure you'll find a Breaux Greer instance.


tandfman is going by the stated official USATF rules and procedures for Moscow World Championships team selection. I think Greer made the 2008 Olympic team because of a special clause that allowed the addition of injured athletes who competed in the trials but didn't make the team, if they had the A standard, and as long as no other athlete was displaced.

The 2013 USATF Governance Handbook includes the paragraph below, but interestingly it doesn't include the World Championships.. Does anyone have an idea why that might be?:

220512 Complete teams-

In obtaining representation for the United States in each competition and event of the Olympic Games, Paralympic Games, and Pan-American Games, the corporation, either directly or by delegation to the appropriate national governing body or paralympic sports organization, may select, but is not obligated to select (even if not selecting will result in an incomplete team for an event), athletes who have not met the eligibility standard of the national governing body and the Corporation, when the number of athletes who have met the eligibility standards of such entities is insufficient to fill the roster for an event.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby tandfman » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:43 pm

gh wrote:
donley2 wrote:
tandfman wrote:If USATF follows its own published rules, Torrence's time will not put him on the Moscow team, no matter what anyone else does between now and the entry deadline.

Don't know that the official rules have said in the past, but there is almost certainly precedent for entering people who did not meet the officially stated guidelines in the past.

I can't name chapter and verse, but they have "filled" in the past. Pretty sure you'll find a Breaux Greer instance.

I think the rules were different in the past.

The reason not to do this, given the current printed rules, is that it's arguably not fair to others below the 4th place finishers who could have chased the standards but didn't do so because the rules said that post-Nationals marks wouldn't count.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby gh » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:51 pm

the rules, as always I suspect, are whatever the T&FN Committee decides they are when team-naming time comes.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby tandfman » Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:59 pm

I guess we'll know in a few weeks.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby gm » Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:33 pm

gh wrote:the rules, as always I suspect, are whatever the T&FN Committee decides they are when team-naming time comes.


Got an errant "N" there :wink:
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby lionelp1 » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:29 pm

gh wrote:the rules, as always I suspect, are whatever the T&FN Committee decides they are when team-naming time comes.


Can the rules of the T&F Committee be anymore complex, stultifying and generally quite meaningless than the UKA Rules for Selection Process. I doubt it. The latter select who they want and there is always a clause dreamed up by their "experts" to justify their choices.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby tandfman » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:10 am

gm wrote:
gh wrote:the rules, as always I suspect, are whatever the T&FN Committee decides they are when team-naming time comes.

Got an errant "N" there :wink:

Maybe he's trying to tell us something. :)
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Alan Shank » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:13 pm

Higginson in Lausanne 9:49+, nowhere near A standard.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Walt Murphy » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:17 pm

Alan Shank wrote:Higginson in Lausanne 9:49+, nowhere near A standard.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA


Are you suggesting she needs an "A"? As a "B" qualifier, I'm pretty sure she's already on the team, since she finished 2nd to Nicole Bush, who has the "A", at the U.S. Nationals.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Pego » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:23 pm

Walt Murphy wrote:
Alan Shank wrote:Higginson in Lausanne 9:49+, nowhere near A standard.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA


Are you suggesting she needs an "A"? As a "B" qualifier, I'm pretty sure she's already on the team, since she finished 2nd to Nicole Bush, who has the "A", at the U.S. Nationals.


Walt, do you have any inside info about telecast/webcast from Moscow? I know many posters here would appreciate that info :D .
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby tandfman » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:39 pm

Walt Murphy wrote:
Alan Shank wrote:Higginson in Lausanne 9:49+, nowhere near A standard.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA

Are you suggesting she needs an "A"? As a "B" qualifier, I'm pretty sure she's already on the team, since she finished 2nd to Nicole Bush, who has the "A", at the U.S. Nationals.

She does not need an A, but if she got one, then Shalaya Kipp, who finished 3rd and has a B, would be our third steepler. If neither Higginson nor Kipp get the A by July 20, then Jamie Cheever is the 3rd steepler.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Walt Murphy » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:59 pm

Pego wrote:Walt, do you have any inside info about telecast/webcast from Moscow? I know many posters here would appreciate that info :D .


Looking into it
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Pego » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:10 pm

Walt Murphy wrote:
Pego wrote:Walt, do you have any inside info about telecast/webcast from Moscow? I know many posters here would appreciate that info :D .


Looking into it


Thanks 8-) .
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Alan Shank » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:18 pm

tandfman wrote:
Walt Murphy wrote:
Alan Shank wrote:Higginson in Lausanne 9:49+, nowhere near A standard.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA

Are you suggesting she needs an "A"? As a "B" qualifier, I'm pretty sure she's already on the team, since she finished 2nd to Nicole Bush, who has the "A", at the U.S. Nationals.

She does not need an A, but if she got one, then Shalaya Kipp, who finished 3rd and has a B, would be our third steepler. If neither Higginson nor Kipp get the A by July 20, then Jamie Cheever is the 3rd steepler.


This is what I was referring to -- Kipp is bummed out! >:-) Of course, it's up to Kipp to get her own A.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:16 pm

I believe Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz got their "A"'s for the 1500.
Ashley Higginson failed to get her's for the SC in Lausanne, but she tweeted that she'll keep trying. Should be 2 or 3 more chances for her.

For the person who asked about the date of the Hasay/Erdmann 10K attempt, the Portland Roughrider Twilight meet, as it's being called, is set for the evening of July 15th, with several other events scheduled!!
If the weather is bad, or Hasay or Erdmann are ill, a back-up date of July 19th is set....but only for the 10K!!
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby rsb2 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:34 pm

" Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz got their A's " ? When did this happen?
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Alan Shank » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:55 pm

rsb2 wrote:" Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz got their A's " ? When did this happen?


Nothing on Tilastopaja on that. Probably another "tweet".
Cheers,
Alan Shank
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:07 pm

Alan Shank wrote:
rsb2 wrote:" Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz got their A's " ? When did this happen?


Nothing on Tilastopaja on that. Probably another "tweet".
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA


OMG!!!
I'm VERY sorry!! :oops: :oops:
I was reading Let's Run's PREVIEW of the Paris 1500, in which Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz will TRY for their "A"s!!!
So it must have been projected wishful thinking on my part!!

Again, very sorry.....and please IGNORE (what I said earlier)!!

(But I think they WILL get them Saturday!)
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Alan Shank » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:35 pm

aaronk wrote:
Alan Shank wrote:
rsb2 wrote:" Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz got their A's " ? When did this happen?


Nothing on Tilastopaja on that. Probably another "tweet".
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA


OMG!!!
I'm VERY sorry!! :oops: :oops:
I was reading Let's Run's PREVIEW of the Paris 1500, in which Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz will TRY for their "A"s!!!
So it must have been projected wishful thinking on my part!!

Again, very sorry.....and please IGNORE (what I said earlier)!!

(But I think they WILL get them Saturday!)


Most of us are ignoring everything you say. >:-)
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Dutra5 » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:52 pm

aaronk wrote:I believe Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz got their "A"'s for the 1500.
Ashley Higginson failed to get her's for the SC in Lausanne, but she tweeted that she'll keep trying. Should be 2 or 3 more chances for her.

For the person who asked about the date of the Hasay/Erdmann 10K attempt, the Portland Roughrider Twilight meet, as it's being called, is set for the evening of July 15th, with several other events scheduled!!
If the weather is bad, or Hasay or Erdmann are ill, a back-up date of July 19th is set....but only for the 10K!!


Wouldn't that make the race not eligible as a qualifier?
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby bushop » Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:35 pm

Alan Shank wrote:Most of us are ignoring everything you say. >:-)

Poor form.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:40 am

Dutra5 wrote:
aaronk wrote:I believe Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz got their "A"'s for the 1500.
Ashley Higginson failed to get her's for the SC in Lausanne, but she tweeted that she'll keep trying. Should be 2 or 3 more chances for her.

For the person who asked about the date of the Hasay/Erdmann 10K attempt, the Portland Roughrider Twilight meet, as it's being called, is set for the evening of July 15th, with several other events scheduled!!
If the weather is bad, or Hasay or Erdmann are ill, a back-up date of July 19th is set....but only for the 10K!!


Wouldn't that make the race not eligible as a qualifier?


No, not eligible for records, but I think is ok for a qualifier. The NCAA has different rules and does not take qualifiers from the PV Summit (single event meet) if I recall correctly.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby tandfman » Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:59 am

If it's a sanctioned event (and I gather the Portland meet will be), it should be ok for records.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby James Fields » Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:15 am

Alan Shank wrote: Higginson in Lausanne 9:49+, nowhere near A standard.
... Kipp is bummed out! Of course, it's up to Kipp to get her own A.
________

Kipp will run 3000m steeple July 8 in France (Meeting International de Sotteville lès Rouen) seeking a 2013 "A" time -- 9:43 or faster.

World Championship year finds USA Olympians Emma Coburn and Shalaya Kipp injured, Higginson with outdated "A" performance (9:34.49 in July 2012) and Colleen Quigley (9:38.23 runner-up at 2013 NCAA Champs) scratching after her entry in USATF champs at Des Moines.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Dutra5 » Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:59 am

tandfman wrote:If it's a sanctioned event (and I gather the Portland meet will be), it should be ok for records.


Even if one event is moved 4 or 5 days because of an unexpected tummy ache for one of the participants or some unexpected heat, rain or snow?

That is, of course, if that bit of info is true.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby mcgato » Sat Jul 06, 2013 12:12 pm

Updated for the m1500 end of chase. Manzano and Lomong both got the A. They make the team along with Centro who has the B.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby tm71 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:19 pm

aaronk wrote:
Alan Shank wrote:
rsb2 wrote:" Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz got their A's " ? When did this happen?


Nothing on Tilastopaja on that. Probably another "tweet".
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA


OMG!!!
I'm VERY sorry!! :oops: :oops:
I was reading Let's Run's PREVIEW of the Paris 1500, in which Manzano, Lomong, and Centrowitz will TRY for their "A"s!!!
So it must have been projected wishful thinking on my part!!

Again, very sorry.....and please IGNORE (what I said earlier)!!

(But I think they WILL get them Saturday!)


Manzano and lomong did so they are heading to Moscow with Centro.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby wineturtle » Sat Jul 06, 2013 1:47 pm

Blues wrote:
gh wrote:
donley2 wrote:
tandfman wrote:If USATF follows its own published rules, Torrence's time will not put him on the Moscow team, no matter what anyone else does between now and the entry deadline.


Don't know that the official rules have said in the past, but there is almost certainly precedent for entering people who did not meet the officially stated guidelines in the past.


I can't name chapter and verse, but they have "filled" in the past. Pretty sure you'll find a Breaux Greer instance.


tandfman is going by the stated official USATF rules and procedures for Moscow World Championships team selection. I think Greer made the 2008 Olympic team because of a special clause that allowed the addition of injured athletes who competed in the trials but didn't make the team, if they had the A standard, and as long as no other athlete was displaced.

The 2013 USATF Governance Handbook includes the paragraph below, but interestingly it doesn't include the World Championships.. Does anyone have an idea why that might be?:

220512 Complete teams-

In obtaining representation for the United States in each competition and event of the Olympic Games, Paralympic Games, and Pan-American Games, the corporation, either directly or by delegation to the appropriate national governing body or paralympic sports organization, may select, but is not obligated to select (even if not selecting will result in an incomplete team for an event), athletes who have not met the eligibility standard of the national governing body and the Corporation, when the number of athletes who have met the eligibility standards of such entities is insufficient to fill the roster for an event.

Perhaps
since the mentioned events are under the US Olympic Committee it has to do with their rules standards or stated goals.
USOC not involved with IAAF Worlds

In the chase still-- Elliott
since Mathew Centrowitz seems to be injured( on some not yet clear level ) a B gets him in position should Mathew have a serious injury.
EDIT 7 july- Salazar says Centrowitz is not injured just jet lagged, embarrassed about the first time he ever DNFed and will be ready to go @ Monoco
Last edited by wineturtle on Sun Jul 07, 2013 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Jul 06, 2013 6:52 pm

A whole slew of Americans just ran 3:34 and several more ran 3:35 in Belgium; see Front Page
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby pickle47 » Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:42 pm

Cory McGee 4:09.xx in Belgium.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:37 am

Shalaya Kipp runs soon in France.......less than 3 hours from now!!
She needs the "A" of 9:43.
Wish her well.
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