Chase the A and B status


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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Thu Jul 18, 2013 3:28 pm

Alan Shank wrote:So, when does Erdmann run her 10K?
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA


Well, since I'm blocked from your screen, you probably won't see this, but for everyone else who's interested.....
Erdmann runs tomorrow at 9:45 p.m. PT at Jesuit HS......same site as Hasay's run.
No word on who the pacers will be....or who else might run 38 minutes in the same "race"!! :roll:
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 18, 2013 7:16 pm

Temp about 72, dew point 56, but wind at 11mph (5mps) (however, that is the wind speed 10m up; unfortunately, the stadium looks pretty open to the wind). Given some achilles problem, it probably will not matter; I would not be surprised with a DNF as she goes for the A and blows up and/or stresses the injury (which also has kept her from being in top shape).
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby tandfman » Fri Jul 19, 2013 2:02 pm

I gather that the men's discus throwers will be making one last attempt to qualify at Claremont Saturday, the last day of USATF's window. I wish them good luck.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby bushop » Fri Jul 19, 2013 3:57 pm

tandfman wrote:I gather that the men's discus throwers will be making one last attempt to qualify at Claremont Saturday, the last day of USATF's window. I wish them good luck.

Yup.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Fri Jul 19, 2013 6:52 pm

Just a reminder that Tara Erdmann's try for an A goes off in a bit less than 2 hours....at 9:45 Pacific time!
Flotrack will have full coverage....but believe you need to be a paying member....like I am! :)
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby pickle47 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 8:23 pm

Flotrack just messed with my subscription and locked me out. I'm curious how this will turn out, so any updates would be appreciated. Thx.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby pickle47 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:07 pm

Looks like it's Flanagan, Hasay and Hastings.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Alan Shank » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:16 pm

pickle47 wrote:Looks like it's Flanagan, Hasay and Hastings.


So, what was the result????
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby bushop » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:19 pm

29:52 with 3 laps to go.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Fri Jul 19, 2013 9:35 pm

A total disaster!!
I feel so much sympathy for Tara tonight!
A great runner in a lose-lose situation......she gave it her all!
Hopefully, she'll find what she needs......even if it means going in an entirely new direction......with an entirely new set of people helping her!!
I look forward to a GREAT career for a person who truly deserves more than she got tonight!!

Shalane Flanagan will be tough.
I strongly doubt Jordan Hasay will avoid getting lapped in Moscow.
Amy Hastings will be the unknown quantity....but if she can match her 31:10 from London, at least she won't embarrass herself.

And the REAL loser??
Well, Kara Goucher will be watching from afar!!
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby rsb2 » Fri Jul 19, 2013 10:27 pm

Wow, AK, that is one messed-up post...
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Fri Jul 19, 2013 11:15 pm

rsb2 wrote:Wow, AK, that is one messed-up post...


Maybe I was a bit over the top in my assessment, but I'm not the only one who thinks this whole Hasay/Erdmann Q chase was a disaster waiting to happen.
I just expressed my sentiments a bit more honestly than most folks have.

The only reason Hasay is going to Moscow is because she had the freedom to get EITHER an A or a B.
So she gets her B.
That put the burden on Tara.....who was forced to run alone to chase an A.
SHE didn't have that same freedom Hasay did....to get EITHER an A or a B.
She HAD to get the A.

Not saying she would have gone to Moscow if they'd run together.....but at least then the burden would have been equally distributed between them.
Running separately......even with pacers.....was putting each of them into a sterile TRAINING situation......where the needed RACE intensity and the adrenaline is missing....and you have to rely on your inner strength to get you to your goal.
If they'd had EACH OTHER to push them.....in a REAL RACE situation.......I think the outcome MIGHT have been different!!

So yes, I may have been too harsh in the WAY I expressed my thoughts....but the message was clear to me from the first day this thing was announced......it was a failure waiting to happen!!

As I said earlier, I wish Tara Erdmann all the success she deserves!!
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Tuariki » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:01 am

Hasay goes to Moscow because she deserves to go more than Erdmann; because she beat Erdmann; because she ran faster than Erdmann; because she ran the necessary qualifying times and Erdmann didn't. QED.

Erdmann isn't going because unfortunately, at the end of the day, she doesn't deserve to go; because she wasn't good enough; and sadly she didn't run fast enough. Any burden on Erdmann was put there by Erdmann.

So don't try to blame Hasay. It's not Hasay's fault. And Hasay owes nothing to Erdmann. It is no one's fault. It just is what it is.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:18 am

aaronk wrote:
rsb2 wrote:Wow, AK, that is one messed-up post...


Maybe I was a bit over the top in my assessment,


Imagine that!

The only reason Hasay is going to Moscow is because she had the freedom to get EITHER an A or a B.


Which was earned by finishing second in the qualifying event.

She HAD to get the A.


...and she didn't.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:19 am

Tuariki wrote:Hasay goes to Moscow because she deserves to go more than Erdmann; because she beat Erdmann; because she ran faster than Erdmann; because she ran the necessary qualifying times and Erdmann didn't. QED.

Erdmann isn't going because unfortunately, at the end of the day, she doesn't deserve to go; because she wasn't good enough; and sadly she didn't run fast enough. Any burden on Erdmann was put there by Erdmann.

So don't try to blame Hasay. It's not Hasay's fault. And Hasay owes nothing to Erdmann. It is no one's fault. It just is what it is.


Well said....particularly the last point.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby az2004 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:01 am

I expect flangan to have a good reace in Moscow

hasey is doing her new distance so getting experience will be her key

good race s is what I expect
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby booond » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:39 am

aaronk wrote:A total disaster!!
I feel so much sympathy for Tara tonight!
A great runner in a lose-lose situation......she gave it her all!
Hopefully, she'll find what she needs......even if it means going in an entirely new direction......with an entirely new set of people helping her!!
I look forward to a GREAT career for a person who truly deserves more than she got tonight!!

Shalane Flanagan will be tough.
I strongly doubt Jordan Hasay will avoid getting lapped in Moscow.
Amy Hastings will be the unknown quantity....but if she can match her 31:10 from London, at least she won't embarrass herself.

And the REAL loser??
Well, Kara Goucher will be watching from afar!!


I'm amazed at how many of his posts resemble those of a tween girl railing about a middle school romance. If handwritten every i would be dotted with a heart.

Mean girl Jordan didn't team up with Alberto to ruin Tara's chances to make the cheerleader squad, Tara couldn't do the number of cartwheels necessary.

Don't worry aaronk, unicorns are real and the New Kids on the Block are touring.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby bushop » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:47 am

How things went show why they run separate races. If one struggles mid-race how do the pacemakers react? Who slows down for one while the other soldiers ahead?
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby booond » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:00 am

bushop wrote:How things went show why they run separate races. If one struggles mid-race how do the pacemakers react? Who slows down for one while the other soldiers ahead?


The reason to separate them was obvious. If you ran them together there was the possibility of both missing. If they ran together, Erdmann would need to run at "A" pace to assure her position on the team since Hasay wasn't obligated to get an "A" only a "B". When Hasay got the "B" it cemented what Erdmann would've had to set out to do if they ran together and that was run at "A" pace. For whatever reason, Erdmann wasn't capable.

To be honest, the person who was put under an undue amount of strain was Hasay who only needed to run a "B" but was asked to run an "A" so that her weaker teammate would have an easier road.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby bushop » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:13 am

booond wrote:If you ran them together there was the possibility of both missing.

Amen.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Samurai_Runner » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:16 am

More negative posts showing a lack of knowledge and awareness about the sport.
aaronk wrote:A total disaster!!....A great runner in a lose-lose situation....

Total disaster? How is it a "lose-lose"? If she ran the "A", she would've been in. Also, at least she made an attempt, which you praised, but you still call it a lose situation? She was still recovering from an injury, so running earlier in the week would not have made any difference.

aaronk wrote: Hopefully, she'll find what she needs......even if it means going in an entirely new direction......with an entirely new set of people helping her!!

Again, taking shots at Salazar. Let's see, she finished 6th in last year's Olympic Trials and finished 3rd in this year's World Trials. I guess that's the wrong direction.

aaronk wrote:I strongly doubt Jordan Hasay will avoid getting lapped in Moscow.

Wow, you're a real US track fan. Very positive encouragement for one of our young, upcoming distance runners.

aaronk wrote:And the REAL loser?? Well, Kara Goucher will be watching from afar!!

Calling one of the US's best distance runners a loser? Wow, did Tara's "disaster" bring all this hate out of you? Did you tweet that to Kara or post on her facebook page?
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby bushop » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:16 am

Throwholics' Twitter feed will be sharing live updates from today's Moscow Last Chance Meet in Naperville/ Lilse Illinois USA>

<Throwholics>
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Master Po » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:27 am

^ Yes to boond's post, above. Well-stated, as was Tuariki's post, a bit earlier. And as if any other reasons needed to be stated about why Erdmann's race was separate/later, Salazar noted in post-Hasay race interviews that Erdmann's achilles wasn't 100% and they wanted to give her as much time as they legitimately could to be well for her attempt. As it turned out, it seems -- as happens to countless athletes -- that Erdmann's fitness had "expired" for this season. I congratulate her on her outstanding season, and wish her well in future competitions.

I am pleased that Salazar/Nike took these legitimate steps that they did for their athletes to facilitate the best opportunities they could legitimately arrange to help their athletes succeed. I'm pretty sure that's what coaches, promoters, sponsors are supposed to do. I have listened to and read decades worth of proper complaint from almost every quarter about the myriad ways in which federations, sponsors, promoters, coaches fail to promote the legitimate interests of their athletes, instead acting narrowly, short-sightedly, selfishly, bureaucratically, etc. when they could actually promote the development and excellence of their athletes. To do what's best for the athletes' development or excellence doesn't require any of the powers that be (e.g., Salazar or Nike, in this instance) to be saints or philanthropists. Rather, it just requires them to do their profit-making work for the benefit of the athlete. In this case, it was done, and Hasay succeeded in a big way, with a 20 second PB. I can think of so many times in different countries when federations, sponsors, promoters, et al. haven't done what might have helped their own athletes -- responding with versions of "you should have done something earlier, faster, better, etc. for us to support you", or versions of "if you were already medal-worthy we would support you, because you know, we only want to support athletes who are likely to medal." Or, "We don't care how good you are, you have to do things our way." And so on. I appreciate what Salazar/Nike did here, and what they are doing -- they are giving their athletes the best legitimate chances to develop their potential and succeed. That's their job.

And I continue to be impressed with Hasay. She has been racing pretty much year round for several years now -- indoors, outdoors spring and summer, and xc -- and she continues to improve, and continues to be healthy, and she continues to enjoy the sport. I have no idea how she will develop from here, but she is a tough, durable, runner. She's a pro, and not just in the narrow sense of that term. I am happy to have one like her wearing the USA kit.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:09 am

Award goes to "boond" for having the most creative and humorous response to my posts!!

That said, I'm going to go off on a tangent from responding about the Hasay/Erdmann affair.
I've already said what I want to say.
(BTW, if you want a better written comment on the run last night, see my comment below the article about it on Flotrack!)

I LOVE the idea of chasing marks!
That said, maybe the IAAF/USATF need to allow for better opportunities for some of the more difficult events to get a needed Q.
I speak especially of the long distance events and the multi's.
To get a Q for the LJ or PV or 100 or 1500 is much easier than getting one for the 10K or Dec or Hept.
What if, by some freak of nature, Ashton Eaton failed to Q for Moscow at USATF?
He was in shape to do it, but missed, yet finished 4th behind a couple of guys who only had B's.
(Not sure if I'm doing this right----I still don't quite understand all the A-B situations! :shock: )
So when would Eaton have the opportunity to do another Dec in the 4 week window given to chasing Q's?
Probably none...or maybe one!
Same with the 10K.
So maybe new rules need to be written JUST for these events!!
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby norunner » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:25 am

aaronk wrote:What if, by some freak of nature, Ashton Eaton failed to Q for Moscow at USATF?
He was in shape to do it, but missed, yet finished 4th behind a couple of guys who only had B's.
(Not sure if I'm doing this right----I still don't quite understand all the A-B situations! :shock: )
So when would Eaton have the opportunity to do another Dec in the 4 week window given to chasing Q's?
Probably none...or maybe one!
Same with the 10K.
So maybe new rules need to be written JUST for these events!!
The rules for 10000m and combined events are already different. The qualification period for those events is longer, January 1st 2012 til July 29th 2013. For most other events it starts October 1st 2012. So Eaton's WR from last year would qualify as A-standard for Moscow.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:42 am

norunner wrote:
aaronk wrote:What if, by some freak of nature, Ashton Eaton failed to Q for Moscow at USATF?
He was in shape to do it, but missed, yet finished 4th behind a couple of guys who only had B's.
(Not sure if I'm doing this right----I still don't quite understand all the A-B situations! :shock: )
So when would Eaton have the opportunity to do another Dec in the 4 week window given to chasing Q's?
Probably none...or maybe one!
Same with the 10K.
So maybe new rules need to be written JUST for these events!!
The rules for 10000m and combined events are already different. The qualification period for those events is longer, January 1st 2012 til July 29th 2013. For most other events it starts October 1st 2012. So Eaton's WR from last year would qualify as A-standard for Moscow.


So I guess it then comes down to (for 10K and multis people).....Get that damn A....and get it NOW......or your goose is fried!!
Meaning, BEFORE USATF!!!
In the case of Hasay and Erdmann, maybe they should have thrown caution to the wind at Stanford.....or even at USATF.
Run for place.....AND for the A!!
I would think Hasay and Erdmann were ready to run their A or B at USATF.
An extra 4 weeks of training wouldn't make THAT much difference.
So if I had an athlete whose main focus was on going to the OG or WC, I'd have that person get their A early......as early as possible.....so they don't have to worry about it at the Trials....or have the burden of having to get it in the 4 weeks after!!
Yes, it would call for an early "peak", but it then clears the decks for them so they can concentrate more on strategy and place!
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby booond » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:44 am

Master Po wrote:^ And I continue to be impressed with Hasay. She has been racing pretty much year round for several years now -- indoors, outdoors spring and summer, and xc -- and she continues to improve, and continues to be healthy, and she continues to enjoy the sport. I have no idea how she will develop from here, but she is a tough, durable, runner. She's a pro, and not just in the narrow sense of that term. I am happy to have one like her wearing the USA kit.


I've never been a Hasayite. However,as her career at Oregon neared its finish what I came to appreciate was Hasay the teammate. She was a great runner at Oregon more for her willingness to do what was best for the team than what was best for her.

As Master Po puts it, she's a pro and has been a pro for many years now.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:52 am

aaronk wrote:
So I guess it then comes down to (for 10K and multis people).....Get that damn A....and get it NOW......or your goose is fried!!
Meaning, BEFORE USATF!!!
In the case of Hasay and Erdmann, maybe they should have thrown caution to the wind at Stanford.....or even at USATF.


Hasay's focus was on the collegiate season and throwing caution to the wind may have screwed that up and....more importantly....didn't get in the way of her qualifications.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Samurai_Runner » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:02 am

aaronk wrote:So I guess it then comes down to (for 10K and multis people).....Get that damn A....and get it NOW......or your goose is fried!!
Meaning, BEFORE USATF!!!
In the case of Hasay and Erdmann, maybe they should have thrown caution to the wind at Stanford.....or even at USATF.
Run for place.....AND for the A!!

More naive and misinformed statements. It's like a child asking her father, "Why didn't Jordan & Tara run faster before the championship meet so they wouldn't have to run another race to meet the standard?" Gee, I guess they didn't think of that. Yeah, throwing caution to the wind at USATF worked for Goucher - who you called a loser. Another great suggestion.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby gh » Sat Jul 20, 2013 10:46 am

I'd definitely characterize Hasay as a tad over-raced this year (and I'm a racing-is-good kinda guy, normally). Already no fewer than 5 races in the 10K already? When's the last time you remember somebody doing a half-dozen in a year? (in this case, less than 5 months)
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby booond » Sat Jul 20, 2013 11:32 am

gh wrote:I'd definitely characterize Hasay as a tad over-raced this year (and I'm a racing-is-good kinda guy, normally). Already no fewer than 5 races in the 10K already? When's the last time you remember somebody doing a half-dozen in a year? (in this case, less than 5 months)


And a few 5ks, too.

She'll have plenty of time to rest once the WC's are over.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby bushop » Sat Jul 20, 2013 12:38 pm

Kara Patterson javelin 57.12m (187' 5") in Chicago.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Tuariki » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:17 pm

aaronk wrote:I LOVE the idea of chasing marks!
That said, maybe the IAAF/USATF need to allow for better opportunities for some of the more difficult events to get a needed Q.
I speak especially of the long distance events and the multi's.
To get a Q for the LJ or PV or 100 or 1500 is much easier than getting one for the 10K or Dec or Hept.


Interesting. And so, how valid is Aaron's observation?

Based on the IAAF lists for 2013 as of today

IAAF - - - A - - - standard - - event
points - qual'd

1160 - - - 62 - - - - 10.15 - - - -100m
1175 - - - 38 - - - - 3:35 - - - - 1500m
1164 - - - 20 - - - - 27:40 - - - 10000
1168 - - - 23 - - - - 5.70 - - - - PV
1179 - - - 10 - - - - 8.25 - - - - LJ
1141- - - -15 - - - - 8200 - - - - Decathlon

Based on the IAAF scoring tables the events are all relatively equal, although decathlon easiest and LJ hardest.
Based on numbers qualifying LJ is easily the hardest and 100m very easy (in comparison) but then it is an event that needs numbers in order to have 4 rounds.

What if, by some freak of nature, Ashton Eaton failed to Q for Moscow at USATF?

Freaks of nature can happen to the best of them - just ask Randy Matson in 1972. The standards are set with plenty of warning. It is up to athletes to perform. If they risk everything on a single performance towards the end of the qualifying period that is their problem. Saying there are not enough competitions is a cop out. Come down to NZ or OZ during the USA / Europe off season.
He was in shape to do it, but missed, yet finished 4th behind a couple of guys who only had B's.
(Not sure if I'm doing this right----I still don't quite understand all the A-B situations! :shock: )
So when would Eaton have the opportunity to do another Dec in the 4 week window given to chasing Q's? Probably none...or maybe one!

That would be his problem and his fault. He got beat - it happens sometimes to the best of them - just ask Randy.

Same with the 10K.
So maybe new rules need to be written JUST for these events!!

And what do you suggest? What about an essay competition where they can write a 10 page thesis on why they really are in sub 31:45 shape instead of the false positive of a 34:19.41. And then submit the thesis for marking to an IAAF international panel of fairy tale writers chaired by JK Rowling with Hans Christian Andersen as the iconic inspiration.

While like you I don't really understand the machinations of the relationships between A and B and who qualifies for a country. And to be honest, I don't really care because it doesn't affect NZ and is unlikely to affect NZ. However, the above table shows that the numbers meeting the standards would appear to be about right, with perhaps the exception of the LJ.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby booond » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:11 pm

Ask Dan O' Brien and Reebok about decathlon failures at the wrong time. Also, I suggest we add the Brother's Grimm to that Fairy Tale judge's table.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Marquis » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:37 pm

So will they let the 5th place finisher and yerly leader Marquis Dendy go to Moscow? He apparently is the only one with an A for the LJ.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby gh » Sat Jul 20, 2013 4:42 pm

my understanding would be yes, but this is NOT based on any official discussion w/ USATF.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby aaronk » Sat Jul 20, 2013 5:15 pm

Marquis wrote:So will they let the 5th place finisher and yerly leader Marquis Dendy go to Moscow? He apparently is the only one with an A for the LJ.
gh wrote:my understanding would be yes, but this is NOT based on any official discussion w/ USATF.


Wouldn't that come under the same ruling that allowed Janet Bawcom to go to London....even though she finished 7th at the Trials?
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby gm » Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:36 pm

Lance Brooks 64.02 for the B at Claremont today.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby Blues » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:00 pm

aaronk wrote:
Marquis wrote:So will they let the 5th place finisher and yerly leader Marquis Dendy go to Moscow? He apparently is the only one with an A for the LJ.
gh wrote:my understanding would be yes, but this is NOT based on any official discussion w/ USATF.


Wouldn't that come under the same ruling that allowed Janet Bawcom to go to London....even though she finished 7th at the Trials?


Any additions after the first 4 placers are now up to the discretion of USATF, but the rules allow Dendy to be selected if USATF so chooses, like gh stated.... The applicable portion of the USATF specific policy for WC team selection is below.

If after July 20, 2013, there remain places on the USATF team or alternate positions not filled by athletes among the top four (4) rank order finishers, USATF may, in its discretion, in rank order of finish, enter athletes and/or designate athletes as alternates based on their having achieved the applicable IAAF Standard at or prior to the National Championships.
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Re: Chase the A and B status

Postby bushop » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:17 pm

Claremont College men's discus results | July 20 :
1.) 64.02m (210' 0") Lance Brooks (USA)
2.) 63.44m (208' 1") Casey Malone (USA)
3.) 61.62m (202' 2") Niklas Arrheanias (Sweden)
4.) 60.81m (199' 6") Michael Torie (USA)
5.) 60.29m (197' 9") Russell Winger (USA)
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Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: near the toys and tape measures

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