Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)


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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Samurai_Runner » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:03 pm

aaronk wrote:Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

So you're saying you have NEVER done any "MMQ'ing" of your fave team's manager or coach?
You've NEVER told an umpire or referee that he's "blind as a bat"??
Or maybe you've agreed with EVERY decision they've ever made!
And that includes your local college or high school coach or ref!!

The problem is that your critiques lack common sense and an informed understanding of the sport. They are equivalent to criticizing the coach because his kicker missed an easy field goal to win the Super Bowl. It is overlooked that the coach got them to the Super Bowl, and got them close enough to attempt the game-winning field goal.
So, Salazar setup races to be run with pacers in the evening to optimize his runners' chances of running their best and making the team. So you end up critiquing his use of male pacers and having his athletes run in separate races? How ridiculous. And the basis of your argument was? Prior experience in coaching pro track athletes? Prior strategy used in a similar situation where 2 distance runners had to make the standard? I guess not.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 12:44 pm

Athletes in separate races makes good sense, to the point where it would be a strategic mistake to have them in the same race. The reason is that Erdmann does not know if she has to hit the A or B standard. Going for the A when only the B was needed would likely diminish her odds of getting the B because she would be going hard from the gun, not able to maintain, and blow up. Conversely, if she went for the B in that race it would have been a problem because she would not have been able to readjust to the pace needed for the A.

A second reason, of course, is the possibility that she has a sore Achilles tendon and resting it a few more days might make a difference. On the other hand, it might make it virtually moot if she has had to back off of training and racing on it hurts it more. I would not be surprised if she starts at the requisite 76 pace and then punts when she cannot maintain it and the tendon is a problem.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby DrJay » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:24 pm

There's also something inherently different about Monday morning QBing running coaches and, say, NFL football coaches. In the former, the coach's job mostly ends when the gun goes off. His/her job has been to supervise the training and preparation of the athlete. After the gun, the athlete is generally on his/her own. On the other hand, the coach is intimately involved in dozens to hundreds of moment-to-moment decisions in an NFL, MLB, or NBA game. It lends itself more to second-guessing and critiquing.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby bushop » Mon Jul 15, 2013 3:54 pm

This criticism directed at Salazar re. Hasay's 10k is like criticizing Belichick for playing Brady during a close win.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby aaronk » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:06 pm

It's always nice to see others agreeing with you....especially when your arguments get so much flak!!
There are two articles---links on Twitter---which at least in part support some of my criticism of this run.
They are by Mario Fraioli, his article on "The Inside Lane" titled "Just Let 'Em Race" on The Competitor site........and one by Ben Rosario from "Run Fan Shop" blog, under "Random Rambling".
While both are good reads, Rosario's comes up with a good argument for why it was best to include Erdmann in last night's run.

He acknowledges that Erdmann would need only a B if Hasay got her A.
Then he questions their having separate attempts.
He says that since Hasay was planning to go out in 15:55, that wouldn't be that far from what Erdmann would probably have done, trying for her B (in the same run!!).
He said she (Erdmann) would probably have run negative splits also....he suggested 16:05 and 15:59.
He said that having Erdmann go 10 seconds faster the first half wouldn't have made that much difference.

He then said something else which I'd never even thought of, but have to agree with.
He said (no offense to Erdmann, he said!!) that Hasay had a "huge fan base" (in Oregon), while Erdmann did not.
He thinks Erdmann won't draw the same kind of crowd Hasay did, thus possibly making it more difficult for her.......as he feels the crowd helped Hasay last night.

Also (and can't remember which one said this!!), it was mentioned that a "race" situation is always better than a time trial....because it makes the last 6 laps competitive....bringing out the extra adrenaline from the competitors!!

Lots of other good stuff in both articles!!
BTW, both were also critical of Salazar....but for different reasons than I was!
Last edited by aaronk on Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Alan Shank » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:09 pm

Samurai_Runner wrote:I wouldn't call missing the goal by 1+ seconds "cracking". Had the pace been on schedule instead of having to make up 9 seconds over the last 2 laps, she would've made it.


You are making an unwarranted assumption that, if the pace had been 9 seconds faster at 9200, she would have made it. It takes more energy to run faster, you know.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Alan Shank » Mon Jul 15, 2013 4:16 pm

So, when does Erdmann take her shot?

As for aaronk, I feel so much less annoyance now that I've put him on my "ignore" list. >:-)
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA, USA
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby barron45 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:36 pm

just another example of why track has become such a joke...not only all the druggies but using a staged "event" with male pacers to attain a standard for a female wc race. All standards should be attained in accredited races against your peers you will need to compete against. I am oh so close to cancelling my 40 some year subs. to T&FN. Glad I will be in the mountains of Peru during the wc's so I won't have to deal with this fiasco. P.S...USA will make its worst showing ever!!!
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby bushop » Mon Jul 15, 2013 5:53 pm

barron45 wrote:... All standards should be attained in accredited races against your peers you will need to compete against....

How would this happen?
Either you have little to no meets or you find massive funding to host multiple meets that can bring in all the 'peers'.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 6:50 pm

aaronk wrote:It's always nice to see others agreeing with you....especially when your arguments get so much flak!!
There are two articles---links on Twitter---which at least in part support some of my criticism of this run.
They are by Mario Fraioli, his article on "The Inside Lane" titled "Just Let 'Em Race" on The Competitor site........and one by Ben Rosario from "Run Fan Shop" blog, under "Random Rambling".
While both are good reads, Rosario's comes up with a good argument for why it was best to include Erdmann in last night's run.

He acknowledges that Erdmann would need only a B if Hasay got her A.
Then he questions their having separate attempts.
He says that since Hasay was planning to go out in 15:55, that wouldn't be that far from what Erdmann would probably have done, trying for her B (in the same run!!).
He said she (Erdmann) would probably have run negative splits also....he suggested 16:05 and 15:59.
He said that having Erdmann go 10 seconds faster the first half wouldn't have made that much difference.

He then said something else which I'd never even thought of, but have to agree with.
He said (no offense to Erdmann, he said!!) that Hasay had a "huge fan base" (in Oregon), while Erdmann did not.
He thinks Erdmann won't draw the same kind of crowd Hasay did, thus possibly making it more difficult for her.......as he feels the crowd helped Hasay last night.

Also (and can't remember which one said this!!), it was mentioned that a "race" situation is always better than a time trial....because it makes the last 6 laps competitive....bringing out the extra adrenaline from the competitors!!

Lots of other good stuff in both articles!!
BTW, both were also critical of Salazar....but for different reasons than I was!


Thank goodness both guys do not write like a petulant child.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby aaronk » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:14 pm

Dutra5 wrote:
aaronk wrote:It's always nice to see others agreeing with you....especially when your arguments get so much flak!!
There are two articles---links on Twitter---which at least in part support some of my criticism of this run.
They are by Mario Fraioli, his article on "The Inside Lane" titled "Just Let 'Em Race" on The Competitor site........and one by Ben Rosario from "Run Fan Shop" blog, under "Random Rambling".
While both are good reads, Rosario's comes up with a good argument for why it was best to include Erdmann in last night's run.

He acknowledges that Erdmann would need only a B if Hasay got her A.
Then he questions their having separate attempts.
He says that since Hasay was planning to go out in 15:55, that wouldn't be that far from what Erdmann would probably have done, trying for her B (in the same run!!).
He said she (Erdmann) would probably have run negative splits also....he suggested 16:05 and 15:59.
He said that having Erdmann go 10 seconds faster the first half wouldn't have made that much difference.

He then said something else which I'd never even thought of, but have to agree with.
He said (no offense to Erdmann, he said!!) that Hasay had a "huge fan base" (in Oregon), while Erdmann did not.
He thinks Erdmann won't draw the same kind of crowd Hasay did, thus possibly making it more difficult for her.......as he feels the crowd helped Hasay last night.

Also (and can't remember which one said this!!), it was mentioned that a "race" situation is always better than a time trial....because it makes the last 6 laps competitive....bringing out the extra adrenaline from the competitors!!

Lots of other good stuff in both articles!!
BTW, both were also critical of Salazar....but for different reasons than I was!


Thank goodness both guys do not write like a petulant child.


:roll: :roll:
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Bob Duncan » Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:28 pm

aaronk wrote:Also (and can't remember which one said this!!), it was mentioned that a "race" situation is always better than a time trial....because it makes the last 6 laps competitive....bringing out the extra adrenaline from the competitors!!


I was thinking the same thing, but then again, that's assuming that they were both together at the end and hadn't slowed the pace so neither would get the A.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby aaronk » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:18 pm

In another event at this "3 day" meet, Trevor Dunbar became the first Alaskan native to run a sub-4:00 mile!!
Don't have the exact time......Flotrack didn't give it........but it was about 3:58.8.
Rob Finnerty finished right behind Dunbar, also around 3:59-low.
Included in the post-race interview was Dunbar's father......who had held the Alaskan state record at 4:00.58!!
Sooooo....from father to son!!
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:25 pm

aaronk wrote:Well, it RESEMBLED a race.
But it was, in the end, just a glorified training session, with a set time goal in mind, which was NOT achieved!!
Yes, she got a PR, which places her 24th fastest American, A-T......but just barely.
And because she FAILED to acheive her goal, this places a much heavier BURDEN on the shoulders (and legs!!) of Tara Erdmann, who MUST run 31:45 on the 19th...or she stays home!!!

Could it have been done better?
Absolutely!!
First, Erdmann should have run WITH Hasay!!
Separating them was the first mistake.
The second mistake was having male pacers.......who obviously did NOT deliver!!
They FAILED to keep good pace for Hasay, a virtual rookie in 10K running.
Alberto Salazar has to be held to SOME of the blame!!
Just as at PTF, when he "forgot" about Mary Cain, he (and/or his assistants) FAILED to have Hasay pick up the pace at the time she needed to!!
If she hadn't dawdled that 4th mile.....as SHE HERSELF admitted doing!!!!!.......she probably would have gotten the mark!!
(Kara Goucher made the same mistake in the Stanford race, where she ran almost an identical time to what Hasay ran tonight!!)

Now the BURDEN is on Tara Erdmann.
I hope Erdmann gets under 31:45.
If she doesn't, then I believe Salazar and Company need to REASSESS their strategy they used tonight....and all this past week or more......first having them run together, then moving the date and the location...and finally separating them.....making achieving their GOALS that much more difficult!!!

Congratulations to Jordan Hasay for her PR....and for getting to go to Moscow.
I just hope Hasay hasn't made it impossible for Tara Erdmann to join her!!!


Herman Munster used to stomp his feet and cry "Darn! Darn.Darn. DARN!" as well.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby bobguild76 » Mon Jul 15, 2013 8:43 pm

aaronk wrote:In another event at this "3 day" meet, Trevor Dunbar became the first Alaskan native to run a sub-4:00 mile!!
Don't have the exact time......Flotrack didn't give it........but it was about 3:58.8.
Rob Finnerty finished right behind Dunbar, also around 3:59-low.
Included in the post-race interview was Dunbar's father......who had held the Alaskan state record at 4:00.58!!
Sooooo....from father to son!!

Awesome!!!
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby luther » Mon Jul 15, 2013 11:48 pm

DrJay wrote:Yeah, but at least eldrick was logical and scientific (to a fault) in his approach. I kinda miss his numbers.


No need to miss him - just go on letsrun.com. His name is now ventolin.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby bushop » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:53 am

aaronk wrote:it was mentioned that a "race" situation is always better than a time trial....because it makes the last 6 laps competitive....bringing out the extra adrenaline from the competitors!!

Better for what purpose?
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:49 am

aaronk wrote:Did you see the interview with Salazar after Hasay's run?
HE was critical of HIMSELF!!

And he said it was HIS fault!
He sounded VERY humble and self-effacing in his comments.



A good coach will always shoulder the blame rather than allow the athlete to begin doubting themselves and also to prevent an IGNORANT public to level irrational criticism.
.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby br » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:21 pm

barron45 wrote:just another example of why track has become such a joke...not only all the druggies but using a staged "event" with male pacers to attain a standard for a female wc race. All standards should be attained in accredited races against your peers you will need to compete against. I am oh so close to cancelling my 40 some year subs. to T&FN. Glad I will be in the mountains of Peru during the wc's so I won't have to deal with this fiasco. P.S...USA will make its worst showing ever!!!

Whew. Thanks for the head's up about the Team USA.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby bushop » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:47 pm

aaronk wrote:It's always nice to see others agreeing with you.... both were also critical of Salazar....but for different reasons than I was!

How do they agree with you?
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Brian » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:49 pm

aaronk wrote:Absolutely CREEPY.......to recognize the face of a person who just made the FOLD-OUT of T&FN....whose photo has been in EVERY issue of T&FN since March issue......who has become the FOCUS of Tim Hutchings et al in their play-by-plays of her races!!
Excuuuuuuuuse me....for noticing the most famous FACE in American running circles these past 6 months......as the FloTrack camera showed her screaming her head off at Hasay.....for about 3 laps or so!!!

BTW, is there a "creep factor of +10" for noticing Salazar??
Because if there is, then I'm the CREEPIEST guy on this planet!!!
I noticed HIM.....before, during, and after Hasay's run!!!

(I also noticed Tara Erdmann! And if Galen Rupp, Mo Farah, or Treniere Moser had been there, I would have noticed THEM too!!!)

Yep, soooooooooo CREEPY, you can not imagine!!! :shock:


Noticing isn't creepy.

As has been pointed out, many on this board--including me--follow Mary Cain's running and have an interest in watching her present athletic feats and future progression.

But when you are apparently so enamored of a young woman that you simply cannot go X-amount of time/posts without mentioning her name--no matter how mundane and unnecessary the context--it is definitely creepy. And when you continually report on your Internet "findings", along with detailed analysis of her every word and mannerism, it may come across as going beyond simple athletic interest.

Others on this board have cut you slack on this but I've coached young women and I've seen this direction of behavior before many times. It always begins with rabid admiration of their athletic feats.

Sometimes that's the end of it. I hope it is so with you.


If not (generally speaking here), things can escalate in different ways, including extreme defensiveness regarding anything and anyone deemed to be a detriment to "your girl"--including, but not limited to, excessive criticism of the authority figures in her life, her parents, her teachers...

...her coach.

If you're not heading down that street, aaronk, you are at least looking at it on the map.
.
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Tuariki » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:42 pm

very well said
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby aaronk » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:31 pm

Thank you, everyone, for all of the great psychoanalyzation you've provided!!
It's saved me mucho $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ on a shrink!

Of course, the fact that ALL of you are WRONG about me (in regards to Mary Cain)....is totally beside the point!!

But, you know, don't want to stop you from having fun!
Go for it!!
I'm having a blast reading them!!
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Re: Portland Roughriders Twilight--July 15 (19?)

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:18 pm

I don't see anyone smiling.
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