Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?


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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby booond » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:35 am

lonewolf wrote:Lonewolf does have an opinion.

Bad calls/no calls/missed calls are a part of all sports. Officials for national meets are qualified by experience and demonstrated inpartiality. They are not selected from the white pages or drawn out of a hat.

From the vantage of a perfect camera angle, we can pontificate about the rules but from the outside of the curve, trying to focus on one or two lanes as eight runners go by at 20 mph, it ain't than easy.You cannot practically review every race/jump/throw of a track meet to, theoretically, get every call perfect.

Every runner hugs the inner line but, in most cases, are not even aware when they inadvertently step on the line. I don't know if the umpire assigned to that lane and portion of the curve saw Gay step on the line but I sincerely doubt that the official cut Gay any slack because it was Gay. Gay did not interfere with the adjacent runner and any advantage gained was irrelevant to the outcome of the race.

Gay is under no technical or moral obligation to resign his position anymore than if a review of every discus throw revealed a missed call of a sole touching the top of the ring.


Correct.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:04 am

lonewolf wrote:Lonewolf does have an opinion.

Bad calls/no calls/missed calls are a part of all sports. Officials for national meets are qualified by experience and demonstrated inpartiality. They are not selected from the white pages or drawn out of a hat.

From the vantage of a perfect camera angle, we can pontificate about the rules but from the outside of the curve, trying to focus on one or two lanes as eight runners go by at 20 mph, it ain't than easy.You cannot practically review every race/jump/throw of a track meet to, theoretically, get every call perfect.

Every runner hugs the inner line but, in most cases, are not even aware when they inadvertently step on the line. I don't know if the umpire assigned to that lane and portion of the curve saw Gay step on the line but I sincerely doubt that the official cut Gay any slack because it was Gay. Gay did not interfere with the adjacent runner and any advantage gained was irrelevant to the outcome of the race.

Gay is under no technical or moral obligation to resign his position anymore than if a review of every discus throw revealed a missed call of a sole touching the top of the ring.


As I mentioned before I have found input from LoneWolf to always add something of value to a discussion. As to the official, I am not so sure that the official wouldn't have cut Tyson some slack. And do we really want officials to wait until the race is over and the results are posted to decide what is relevant or not? I prefer officials to raise the flag when they see a lane violation
And not wait and judge whether it was irrelevant to the outcome.

I do not think Gay or any of his coaches would give two seconds of thought as to giving up his place in the 200. I guess the half empty stadium at Drake and the sorry image of Track &Field got me dreaming up a dramatic story line to catch national attention for the upcoming WC's.
As mal wrote If this is an integrity issue, maybe I shouldn't watch sports. Definitely something to consider.

Thanks all for your comments.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:17 pm

DJG wrote:[
As I mentioned before I have found input from LoneWolf to always add something of value to a discussion. As to the official, I am not so sure that the official wouldn't have cut Tyson some slack. And do we really want officials to wait until the race is over and the results are posted to decide what is relevant or not? I prefer officials to raise the flag when they see a lane violation And not wait and judge whether it was irrelevant to the outcome.


DJG, I appreciate your vote of confidence and understand your skepticism but I do not think delayed reaction is what happened here.
This was the first USATF Ch I have missed working in twenty years. I know 90 % of the officials, including the umpires who work most major meets as a well coordinated crew.

They are not perfect but I also know they would not blink at throwing a flag; oblivious to who was in that lane. Someone posted on this or the other 200m thread that they had spoken to the umpire who was on that curve who confirmed no umpire saw the alleged violation.

Admittedly, that is the expected response but I have no reason to not believe him.

I know officials that take any opportunity of be at the center of a rules controversy; suspectedly not in the interest of justice but to emphasize their importance and knowledge of the rules. These officials do not get invited to national championships.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:33 pm

lonewolf wrote:
DJG wrote:[
As I mentioned before I have found input from LoneWolf to always add something of value to a discussion. As to the official, I am not so sure that the official wouldn't have cut Tyson some slack. And do we really want officials to wait until the race is over and the results are posted to decide what is relevant or not? I prefer officials to raise the flag when they see a lane violation And not wait and judge whether it was irrelevant to the outcome.


DJG, I appreciate your vote of confidence and understand your skepticism but I do not think delayed reaction is what happened here.
This was the first USATF Ch I have missed working in twenty years. I know 90 % of the officials, including the umpires who work most major meets as a well coordinated crew.

They are not perfect but I also know they would not blink at throwing a flag; oblivious to who was in that lane. Someone posted on this or the other 200m thread that they had spoken to the umpire who was on that curve who confirmed no umpire saw the alleged violation.

Admittedly, that is the expected response but I have no reason to not believe him.

I know officials that take any opportunity of be at the center of a rules controversy; suspectedly not in the interest of justice but to emphasize their importance and knowledge of the rules. These officials do not get invited to national championships.



LoneWolf, thanks for your reply. Please pass on a suggestion for me to your official friends.
In other sports, like football and basketball, the officials communicate with the crowd and the TV audience just what is going on as related to penalties or violations of the rules. When you have to re-start several races and no one is DQ''ed would it be asking too much to explain what is going on? The broadcast
Crew for NBC needs all the help they can get! Thanks LoneWolf.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Ned Ryerson » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:29 pm

DJG,

What would have been your recommended course of action when Carl Lewis's 30ft jump was mistakenly called foul by officials?

I would also offer that, like American football, there's a procedure for this. If the official/referee sees a foul, a flag is thrown. If there's a penalty that the officials don't see during the course of play, there's an opportunity to challenge the previous ruling. But it's not the responsibility of the party that has possibly committed the foul to police themselves.

In this case, no official saw a violation during the competition, and no one challenged the results. And now we move on to the next play.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:18 pm

Ned Ryerson wrote:DJG,

What would have been your recommended course of action when Carl Lewis's 30ft jump was mistakenly called foul by officials?

I would also offer that, like American football, there's a procedure for this. If the official/referee sees a foul, a flag is thrown. If there's a penalty that the officials don't see during the course of play, there's an opportunity to challenge the previous ruling. But it's not the responsibility of the party that has possibly committed the foul to police themselves.

In this case, no official saw a violation during the competition, and no one challenged the results. And now we move on to the next play.


In the case you cite I would have hoped that more than one official was watching the board and that like in American football, the officials would get together and discuss what the other officials saw and as they do, pick up the flag and wave off the penalty. Officiating crews are supposed to work together. The meet referees and head umpires I know are constantly backing up other officials at track meets and know where to be to be of most help.
I also know that officials in general are trained to back each other up and not to over-rule their fellow officials. I just think that at a meet of this magnitude and importance it is not asking too much for our sport to do better.
No official admits to seeing the infraction is the way I view it.
If Gay is as oblivious as he says he is as to where the line on the curve is, I can only say the next play will end differently. Then we can debate all over again what the IAAF rule is about running on the line.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:58 pm

As you probably know, the lane officials do not 'call a foul'. Rather they raise a yellow flag. At that point they discuss with the head official in charge of that domain to determine what they saw. In my experience, I can identify what I saw and in what lane, but not who the athlete was. If others are like me, they would have raised or not raised a flag depending on what they saw and later it would be determined who the runner was. My vague memory is that the violation was about 3/4s through the curve. If they have officials at 1/4 and 3/4 of the curve, then they are looking like I mentioned, not with the line of sight down the line.

Also, as indicated by lonewolf, you cannot have the right vantage point for all of the curve, but have better angles for some portions and worse for others.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:18 pm

26mi235 wrote:As you probably know, the lane officials do not 'call a foul'. Rather they raise a yellow flag. At that point they discuss with the head official in charge of that domain to determine what they saw. In my experience, I can identify what I saw and in what lane, but not who the athlete was. If others are like me, they would have raised or not raised a flag depending on what they saw and later it would be determined who the runner was. My vague memory is that the violation was about 3/4s through the curve. If they have officials at 1/4 and 3/4 of the curve, then they are looking like I mentioned, not with the line of sight down the line.

Also, as indicated by lonewolf, you cannot have the right vantage point for all of the curve, but have better angles for some portions and worse for others.


I think the officials should know how to re -position themselves after the runners go by, even moving out on the track and walking up the track to give themselves better lines of sight,
I still say the officials blew it.
Given Gay's history of injuries, he still may well drop the 200 as he has before in 09, as I recall.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:28 pm

Some of you have expressed concern about officials backing, or not backing, other officials, informing coaches/spectators of reason for a ruling and need for double check of fouls.

You may be interested in the evolution of officiating the horizontal jumps, the event with which I am most familiar.
The most obvious point of contention is foot fouls at the take off board .
USATF and IAAF minimize the problem by using plasticine and the "no mark, no foul" rule so I will move on the NCAA/HS visual foul issue.
Foot fouls cannot be called by committee. They are what they are instantly.

About twenty five years ago, NCAA tried stipulating two set of eyes on the board. Starting with the near unanimous LJ philosophy "ties go to the jumper", both officials would flash an instantaneous, inconspicous thumbs down or up. In hundreds (thousands?) of jumps in the two or three years of this experiment, I do not recall a single disagreement. Then the coaches complained the extra official was blocking their view of the take off board and the practice was dropped.
The only redeeming feature of having two board official is: if one is distracted or drops dead, the other calls the jump. We devised a solution for that by seating the Recorder a half meter off the board; not a perfect line but adequate to call obvious safe or foul jumps.

NCAA also experimented with plastine for a few years in the 90s. It was messy, there were few skilled plasticine officials, many venues did not have the facilities to use plastine and it too fell into disuse.

About three years ago, NCAA introduced the camera at the board. The pit judge holds the mark until the jumper passes the board.. If there is no protest the mark is raked.. if the jumper protests, it is measured but not recorded until/if the referee upholds the protest.
Initially, there were a few protests but now they are rare. I have never had a call over turned and do not know of any that have been. I recall one instance when a coach in the stands protested a fair jump by an opponent. He lost.

We try to have duplicate observers at every possible point of controversy.

If measuring with tape, two officials observe the reading.. If using mechanical lasers on a rail, two officials observe the reading on the meter. If measuring with offset triangular laser, after checking the set up meaurements with a steel tape, you just assume it is accurate thereafter and recheck after the last jump.
We use two Recorders who compare marks after each round of jumps and with the electronic recorder.
If using certified officials as Pit Crew, they assist the Pit Judge in spotting hand drags or exit fouls.

As to inter-action with coaches/spectators: Ignore the rare cat calls and boos from the stands.
Respond to respectful request for explanation by a coach or athlete.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Dixon » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:33 pm

DJG wrote:
Dixon wrote:How many footballers would..."excuse me ref but I was holding"....that's right none in the whole history of the game. The officials have a job to do, if they can't do it, shame on them. It's not up to the athlete to do their job for them.

So...nope!


I think holding is more part of the game of football and is even allowed to a certain degree than running out of your lane in track.

It is up to the athletes to follow the rules even if the officials are incompetent, maybe more so because the officials are so bad.

Does a track coach tell his athletes to run inside the lines because chances are good you won't get caught? I hope not.


You mentioned the word.....degree. Did Gay impend anyone, did he gain some unfair advantage? Gay was going to win that race in a parking lot, down an alley, wherever, lanes or no lanes. And we all know it, to make some big deal over something that petty, nay.

Holding is holding, they let it go when it made little difference in a play, this is like that,
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:35 pm

DJG wrote:I think the officials should know how to re -position themselves after the runners go by, even moving out on the track and walking up the track to give themselves better lines of sight,
I still say the officials blew it.


Now I am starting to question your sense of reality. They could no more walk up the curve at 2 mph while Gay is running it at probably 23+ mph and make any change on the line of sight except for maybe to trip on something so that they cannot see anything at all. You are saying the the officials should have done something that they are probably told not to do because in retrospect it would have given them a 0+% better chance of catching that one thing and a much better chance of missing everything. You have beaten a horse that, if it was not dead at the start, died many posts ago, given the post-mortem by lonewolf's posting sequence.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Ned Ryerson » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:49 pm

DJG,

Did Armando Galarraga throw a perfect game? Should the Indians argued with the umpire that Jason Donald was out when he was called safe?

There's a human element to this.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby beebee » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:13 pm

In July 1982 at the USATF in Indianapolis I watched from the stands Carl Lewis clearly jump 30 feet only to have some blurry blind official raise a foul flag. Replays showed no foul.
Shit happens.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Blues » Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:05 pm

DJG wrote: I just think that at a meet of this magnitude and importance it is not asking too much for our sport to do better.
No official admits to seeing the infraction is the way I view it.
If Gay is as oblivious as he says he is as to where the line on the curve is, I can only say the next play will end differently. Then we can debate all over again what the IAAF rule is about running on the line.


First of all, I think that DJG started this thread because he's hoping to be invited to jamboy's next cocktail party.

Secondly, like DJG, I'm also shocked that this could happen at a meet of this magnitude and importance. There's absolutely no excuse for officials missing a runner stepping on the line unless it's at a minor meet like the one pictured below, where the officials completely missed the athlete in red running out of his lane. It's understandable though because it took place during an inconsequential 200m race at a small, insignificant meet in China. Oh wait...

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ex ... X/610x.jpg
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:17 am

Blues wrote:
DJG wrote: I just think that at a meet of this magnitude and importance it is not asking too much for our sport to do better.
No official admits to seeing the infraction is the way I view it.
If Gay is as oblivious as he says he is as to where the line on the curve is, I can only say the next play will end differently. Then we can debate all over again what the IAAF rule is about running on the line.


First of all, I think that DJG started this thread because he's hoping to be invited to jamboy's next cocktail party.

Secondly, like DJG, I'm also shocked that this could happen at a meet of this magnitude and importance. There's absolutely no excuse for officials missing a runner stepping on the line unless it's at a minor meet like the one pictured below, where the officials completely missed the athlete in red running out of his lane. It's understandable though because it took place during an inconsequential 200m race at a small, insignificant meet in China. Oh wait...

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ex ... X/610x.jpg


Blues, I like to run with the wind, so I don' t think JamBoy would invite me. but I do like Jamaican Rum.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:27 am

26mi235 wrote:
DJG wrote:I think the officials should know how to re -position themselves after the runners go by, even moving out on the track and walking up the track to give themselves better lines of sight,
I still say the officials blew it.


Now I am starting to question your sense of reality. They could no more walk up the curve at 2 mph while Gay is running it at probably 23+ mph and make any change on the line of sight except for maybe to trip on something so that they cannot see anything at all. You are saying the the officials should have done something that they are probably told not to do because in retrospect it would have given them a 0+% better chance of catching that one thing and a much better chance of missing everything. You have beaten a horse that, if it was not dead at the start, died many posts ago, given the post-mortem by lonewolf's posting sequence.


Thanks MarathonMan.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:37 am

Dixon wrote:
DJG wrote:
Dixon wrote:How many footballers would..."excuse me ref but I was holding"....that's right none in the whole history of the game. The officials have a job to do, if they can't do it, shame on them. It's not up to the athlete to do their job for them.

So...nope!


I think holding is more part of the game of football and is even allowed to a certain degree than running out of your lane in track.

It is up to the athletes to follow the rules even if the officials are incompetent, maybe more so because the officials are so bad.

Does a track coach tell his athletes to run inside the lines because chances are good you won't get caught? I hope not.


You mentioned the word.....degree. Did Gay impend anyone, did he gain some unfair advantage? Gay was going to win that race in a parking lot, down an alley, wherever, lanes or no lanes. And we all know it, to make some big deal over something that petty, nay.

Holding is holding, they let it go when it made little difference in a play, this is like that,


So when a long jumper's toe is 3/8 of an inch over the foul line and the jump looks really long, the official should let it go because it made only a little difference in the total jump?
As for your belief that holding is holding in football...what games are you watching?
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:44 am

LoneWolf, Appreciate your informative post providing background from the official's play book.
My experience with track officials has been overwhelmingly positive at every level.
Ok, not the finish line judge who kept getting 3rd and 4th reversed. I know many officials work
all levels of track, high school, college and pro. Very challenging keeping all the rules that differ
at each level. Thanks again and have a good summer.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby mal » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:31 am

[/quote]

So when a long jumper's toe is 3/8 of an inch over the foul line and the jump looks really long, the official should let it go because it made only a little difference in the total jump?
As for your belief that holding is holding in football...what games are you watching?[/quote]


Actually all the judge has to do is look at the plasticine and see if its marked. It doesn't matter how far it looks over, if it doesn't mark the plasticine.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby batonless relay » Tue Jun 25, 2013 6:50 am

mal wrote:


So when a long jumper's toe is 3/8 of an inch over the foul line and the jump looks really long, the official should let it go because it made only a little difference in the total jump?
As for your belief that holding is holding in football...what games are you watching?[/quote]


Actually all the judge has to do is look at the plasticine and see if its marked. It doesn't matter how far it looks over, if it doesn't mark the plasticine.[/quote]
I thought they change that rule...
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby pavlik » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:37 am

DJG wrote:The professional sport of Track and Field in the US could sure benefit from a boost to its integrity. Maybe it's best-known sprinter could set an example for the sports governing body, USATF, by disqualifying himself from his 200 meter spot on the team because he clearly ran inside the line of his lane in his semi-final race.

The USATF officials 'watching' the turn were obviously not watching, are blind, or just afraid to raise the red flag on a star. No protest came from anyone else in the field or their coaches, which is only a little surprising because while they are supposed to be looking out for their athletes best interests, they are not responsible for making sure everyone follows the rules of the sport or correcting the mistakes of officials.

Except doing the right thing is what everyone is supposed to do.


Watch this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvlO-yB8se4 about 8min.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:58 am

pavlik wrote:
DJG wrote:The professional sport of Track and Field in the US could sure benefit from a boost to its integrity. Maybe it's best-known sprinter could set an example for the sports governing body, USATF, by disqualifying himself from his 200 meter spot on the team because he clearly ran inside the line of his lane in his semi-final race.

The USATF officials 'watching' the turn were obviously not watching, are blind, or just afraid to raise the red flag on a star. No protest came from anyone else in the field or their coaches, which is only a little surprising because while they are supposed to be looking out for their athletes best interests, they are not responsible for making sure everyone follows the rules of the sport or correcting the mistakes of officials.

Except doing the right thing is what everyone is supposed to do.


Watch this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvlO-yB8se4 about 8min.


These officials sitting down comfortably with their shade hats and shades on certainly looked like
they were enjoying the race. I thought I heard ZZZZZ's coming from one on the inside at about 80 meters.
We use technology to help catch sprinters false starting....oh well, it probably didn't make any difference in the outcome, except perhaps costing Lewis a gold medal, money and another competitor a medal and money,.... small price to pay for shit happening, I guess.
Thanks for sharing the video, pavlik.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby lonewolf » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:47 am

Thanks, pavik. I believe this is the first time I have seen this video.
I assume the point was to show DeLoach repeatedly stepping on/over the inside line, once with his right foot.
I make no apology for the officials, except to say they are instructed to stay seated and as inconspicuous as possible whenever possible.
Some here may not know that all on-field competition officials are from the host nation.
This has been the policy since language differences created problems at 1960 Rome Olympics
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Pego » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:56 am

DJG wrote:These officials sitting down comfortably with their shade hats and shades on certainly looked like they were enjoying the race. I thought I heard ZZZZZ's coming from one on the inside at about 80 meters.


At first I thought you are a purist for "fair play," anachronistic as it may have been, but honest. As this thread progresses, I sense more and more hostility toward the officials. Are you a disgruntled former official bent on a vendetta?
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Blues » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:13 am

Blues wrote:
Secondly, like DJG, I'm also shocked that this could happen at a meet of this magnitude and importance. There's absolutely no excuse for officials missing a runner stepping on the line unless it's at a minor meet like the one pictured below, where the officials completely missed the athlete in red running out of his lane. It's understandable though because it took place during an inconsequential 200m race at a small, insignificant meet in China. Oh wait...

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ex ... X/610x.jpg


Just to clarify since my post was misinterpreted by some (my bad), I was being facetious with the above paragraph. For anyone who didn't recognize it, the photo of Churandy Martina running out of his lane is from the 2008 Beijing Olympic 200m final, which is the race I was referring to in the paragraph. The point that I wanted to make was that officials missing a lane violation can even occur in a meet of the absolute greatest "magnitude and importance"....
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:22 pm

Pego wrote:
DJG wrote:These officials sitting down comfortably with their shade hats and shades on certainly looked like they were enjoying the race. I thought I heard ZZZZZ's coming from one on the inside at about 80 meters.


At first I thought you are a purist for "fair play," anachronistic as it may have been, but honest. As this thread progresses, I sense more and more hostility toward the officials. Are you a disgruntled former official bent on a vendetta?


No Pego, I have no vendetta towards officials. I am on very good terms with all the officials I have worked with as a meet manager and as a coach in the Midwest and mid-Atlantic. I'm just having a little fun, which appears is not in keeping with the usual jingoism that goes on here.
I make few appearances on this forum, stir the pot alittle, and have a good laugh at most of the stuff I read here. All innocent fun and I've never harmed anyone here nor would I.
My idea of Gay taking himself out of the 200 was sparked by two things, 1) he's done it before so as not to risk injury. 2) as JumboElliott posted on another thread- it looked like he deliberately ran on the line. Why would he possibly do that? Perhaps he really doesn't want to push his luck now that he is healthy again, but his "camp" wants him to double and capture the old magic of '07 with 3 gold medals. The 200 was to test the hip for running the same curve he would likely run on the 4x1 relay, 3rd leg.

Tyson is probably as surprised as I am that he wasn't DQ'ed.

AND NO, I have no proof for anything except: he ran inside the line and the officials didn't see it.

Your first thought was correct, Pego.

PS, My last day is tomorrow, GH restricts me to 100 posts per calendar year and I want to save up for Mocba.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:27 pm

Blues wrote:
Blues wrote:
Secondly, like DJG, I'm also shocked that this could happen at a meet of this magnitude and importance. There's absolutely no excuse for officials missing a runner stepping on the line unless it's at a minor meet like the one pictured below, where the officials completely missed the athlete in red running out of his lane. It's understandable though because it took place during an inconsequential 200m race at a small, insignificant meet in China. Oh wait...

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ex ... X/610x.jpg


Just to clarify since my post was misinterpreted by some (my bad), I was being facetious with the above paragraph. For anyone who didn't recognize it, the photo of Churandy Martina running out of his lane is from the 2008 Beijing Olympic 200m final, which is the race I was referring to in the paragraph. The point that I wanted to make was that officials missing a lane violation can even occur in a meet of the absolute greatest "magnitude and importance"....


Who's that in Lane 9 getting ready to put his right foot inside the line?
It' s an epidemic out there. Only one cure....Cameras on the turns!!!!!
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:28 pm

Blues wrote:
Blues wrote:
Secondly, like DJG, I'm also shocked that this could happen at a meet of this magnitude and importance. There's absolutely no excuse for officials missing a runner stepping on the line unless it's at a minor meet like the one pictured below, where the officials completely missed the athlete in red running out of his lane. It's understandable though because it took place during an inconsequential 200m race at a small, insignificant meet in China. Oh wait...

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0ex ... X/610x.jpg


Just to clarify since my post was misinterpreted by some (my bad), I was being facetious with the above paragraph. For anyone who didn't recognize it, the photo of Churandy Martina running out of his lane is from the 2008 Beijing Olympic 200m final, which is the race I was referring to in the paragraph. The point that I wanted to make was that officials missing a lane violation can even occur in a meet of the absolute greatest "magnitude and importance"....


Who's that in Lane 9 getting ready to put his left foot inside the line?
It' s an epidemic out there. Only one cure....Cameras on the turns!!!!!
Last edited by DJG on Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:31 pm

Isn't that the other guy who got DQed when they looked a the first guy? [maybe I have got it wrong]
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Blues » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:03 pm

26mi235 wrote:Isn't that the other guy who got DQed when they looked a the first guy? [maybe I have got it wrong]


Spearmon on the outside was DQ'd by the officials for a lane violation. When the US authorities studied the race video to see if Spearmon's DQ was warranted and to decide whether to protest, they noticed that Martina (who had won silver behind Bolt) had also been clearly out of his lane. The US protested, the protest was upheld (and Martina was DQ'd), and US athletes Crawford and Dix were elevated to silver and bronze, respectively.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Brian » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:12 pm

lonewolf wrote:Lonewolf does have an opinion.

Bad calls/no calls/missed calls are a part of all sports. Officials for national meets are qualified by experience and demonstrated inpartiality. They are not selected from the white pages or drawn out of a hat.

From the vantage of a perfect camera angle, we can pontificate about the rules but from the outside of the curve, trying to focus on one or two lanes as eight runners go by at 20 mph, it ain't than easy.You cannot practically review every race/jump/throw of a track meet to, theoretically, get every call perfect.

Every runner hugs the inner line but, in most cases, are not even aware when they inadvertently step on the line. I don't know if the umpire assigned to that lane and portion of the curve saw Gay step on the line but I sincerely doubt that the official cut Gay any slack because it was Gay. Gay did not interfere with the adjacent runner and any advantage gained was irrelevant to the outcome of the race.

Gay is under no technical or moral obligation to resign his position anymore than if a review of every discus throw revealed a missed call of a sole touching the top of the ring.


How dare you bring stone-cold logic onto this message board...!
:]
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby lionelp1 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:13 pm

Having read the nationalistic nonsense on another thread about Gays undoubted violations in the 200m which should have banned him and was surely noticed by somebody who let him get away with his inadvertent fouls in the 200m, one should notice that the ubernationalism here and on our sister site on AW Forum spoils both Forums .
Too many fans, but thank goodness not all, both on T&F News and AW Forum in the UK can only view performances by the athletes through the prism of their own inadequate chest-beating nationalism. Sadly some would say thats patriotism... how sad. :(

We can be sure that if, in Moscow, Bolt beats Gay in the 200m by a mile but steps on or over the line, which is accidentally missed by the officials, the screaming by certain "fans" here that Bolt should have been disqualified would be noticeable!
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:54 am

lionelp1 wrote:Having read the nationalistic nonsense on another thread about Gays undoubted violations in the 200m which should have banned him and was surely noticed by somebody who let him get away with his inadvertent fouls in the 200m, one should notice that the ubernationalism here and on our sister site on AW Forum spoils both Forums .
Too many fans, but thank goodness not all, both on T&F News and AW Forum in the UK can only view performances by the athletes through the prism of their own inadequate chest-beating nationalism. Sadly some would say thats patriotism... how sad. :(

We can be sure that if, in Moscow, Bolt beats Gay in the 200m by a mile but steps on or over the line, which is accidentally missed by the officials, the screaming by certain "fans" here that Bolt should have been disqualified would be noticeable!


If your scenario happens in Mocba, I can assure you that someone will file a protest against Bolt.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby beebee » Wed Jun 26, 2013 6:31 am

DJG wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:Having read the nationalistic nonsense on another thread about Gays undoubted violations in the 200m which should have banned him and was surely noticed by somebody who let him get away with his inadvertent fouls in the 200m, one should notice that the ubernationalism here and on our sister site on AW Forum spoils both Forums .
Too many fans, but thank goodness not all, both on T&F News and AW Forum in the UK can only view performances by the athletes through the prism of their own inadequate chest-beating nationalism. Sadly some would say thats patriotism... how sad. :(

We can be sure that if, in Moscow, Bolt beats Gay in the 200m by a mile but steps on or over the line, which is accidentally missed by the officials, the screaming by certain "fans" here that Bolt should have been disqualified would be noticeable!


If your scenario happens in Mocba, I can assure you that someone will file a protest against Bolt.


Absolutely bogus point...
WHOEVER wins the 200 in Moscow and steps on the line will have a protest filed against them.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:59 am

beebee wrote:
DJG wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:Having read the nationalistic nonsense on another thread about Gays undoubted violations in the 200m which should have banned him and was surely noticed by somebody who let him get away with his inadvertent fouls in the 200m, one should notice that the ubernationalism here and on our sister site on AW Forum spoils both Forums .
Too many fans, but thank goodness not all, both on T&F News and AW Forum in the UK can only view performances by the athletes through the prism of their own inadequate chest-beating nationalism. Sadly some would say thats patriotism... how sad. :(

We can be sure that if, in Moscow, Bolt beats Gay in the 200m by a mile but steps on or over the line, which is accidentally missed by the officials, the screaming by certain "fans" here that Bolt should have been disqualified would be noticeable!


If your scenario happens in Mocba, I can assure you that someone will file a protest against Bolt.


Absolutely bogus point...
WHOEVER wins the 200 in Moscow and steps on the line will have a protest filed against them.


Absolutely correct, bee bee! I was responding to the specific scenario given.

Where better to have protests than in Mocba, host of the protest OG's in 1980. :mrgreen:
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Blues » Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:00 am

DJG wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:Having read the nationalistic nonsense on another thread about Gays undoubted violations in the 200m which should have banned him and was surely noticed by somebody who let him get away with his inadvertent fouls in the 200m, one should notice that the ubernationalism here and on our sister site on AW Forum spoils both Forums .
Too many fans, but thank goodness not all, both on T&F News and AW Forum in the UK can only view performances by the athletes through the prism of their own inadequate chest-beating nationalism. Sadly some would say thats patriotism... how sad. :(

We can be sure that if, in Moscow, Bolt beats Gay in the 200m by a mile but steps on or over the line, which is accidentally missed by the officials, the screaming by certain "fans" here that Bolt should have been disqualified would be noticeable!


If your scenario happens in Mocba, I can assure you that someone will file a protest against Bolt.


And it's not even Bolt or the winner... In an international competition like Worlds or Olympics, if ANY athlete's potential violation negatively affects the placing of another athlete or team it will usually be protested, and it's almost a guarantee that it'll be protested if medals are at stake, assuming the representative(s) of an athlete/team that was negatively affected are responsible and competent...
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:02 pm

Well you might say Tyson has now answered the question himself, and his answer is yes.
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