Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?


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Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:18 pm

The professional sport of Track and Field in the US could sure benefit from a boost to its integrity. Maybe it's best-known sprinter could set an example for the sports governing body, USATF, by disqualifying himself from his 200 meter spot on the team because he clearly ran inside the line of his lane in his semi-final race.

The USATF officials 'watching' the turn were obviously not watching, are blind, or just afraid to raise the red flag on a star. No protest came from anyone else in the field or their coaches, which is only a little surprising because while they are supposed to be looking out for their athletes best interests, they are not responsible for making sure everyone follows the rules of the sport or correcting the mistakes of officials.

Except doing the right thing is what everyone is supposed to do.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby fasttrack85 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:22 pm

Hell to the no. The reason no coach or runner protested is because they had no shot of beating him anyway. If he ran on the outer part or the inner part of his lane or line he would have won. Yeah yeah i know the rules are the rules but damn sometimes I cant deal with all the technicalities. Plus I am still mourning the loss of VCB right now.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Dixon » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:28 pm

How many footballers would..."excuse me ref but I was holding"....that's right none in the whole history of the game. The officials have a job to do, if they can't do it, shame on them. It's not up to the athlete to do their job for them.

So...nope!
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby ATK » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:32 pm

To late. As unfair as I find it that Gay was not DQ'ed, there is nothing anyone can do now. Gay did not know himself that he stepped on the line, and was asked after the semis and the final about it and didn't know. This was broadcast on national TV as soon as the race finished. if someone wanted to protest, they would have.

But its extremely disappointing that none of the officials called this. (yet Berry was DQ'ed from the 400m for the same offense)
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Dixon » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:37 pm

ATK wrote:To late. As unfair as I find it that Gay was not DQ'ed, there is nothing anyone can do now. Gay did not know himself that he stepped on the line, and was asked after the semis and the final about it and didn't know. This was broadcast on national TV as soon as the race finished. if someone wanted to protest, they would have.

But its extremely disappointing that none of the officials called this. (yet Berry was DQ'ed from the 400m for the same offense)


So the sport would be better off without the stars there?

I'm all for a selection committee, this one meet tells all makes no sense.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:41 pm

Dixon wrote:How many footballers would..."excuse me ref but I was holding"....that's right none in the whole history of the game. The officials have a job to do, if they can't do it, shame on them. It's not up to the athlete to do their job for them.

So...nope!


I think holding is more part of the game of football and is even allowed to a certain degree than running out of your lane in track.

It is up to the athletes to follow the rules even if the officials are incompetent, maybe more so because the officials are so bad.

Does a track coach tell his athletes to run inside the lines because chances are good you won't get caught? I hope not.
Last edited by DJG on Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby jamal00005 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:43 pm

Oh FFS absolute rubbish....why should he take himself off the team ? He won the championship and therefore deserves to get his spot in Moscow....so what if he ran on the line....apprently only Ato saw
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:47 pm

jamal00005 wrote:Oh FFS absolute rubbish....why should he take himself off the team ? He won the championship and therefore deserves to get his spot in Moscow....so what if he ran on the line....apprently only Ato saw


Not off the team, out of the 200 which he didn't earn because of his lane violation.

Only in Ato's mind was he the only one who saw it.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:48 pm

jamal00005 wrote:Oh FFS absolute rubbish....why should he take himself off the team ? He won the championship and therefore deserves to get his spot in Moscow....so what if he ran on the line....apprently only Ato saw


Not off the team, out of the 200 which he didn't earn because of his lane violation.

Only in Ato's mind was he the only one who saw it.
Last edited by DJG on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Grasshopper » Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:49 pm

If the TV coverage of Gay's race hadn't provided a close-up of the curve then we wouldn't be having this conversation. So basically, you (original poster) are saying that Gay should be penalized (or should penalize himself) because his nation is willing to provide high-quality television coverage of his races. Look at the coverage, if any, of other nation's championships. If any of those runners had stepped on the line in the 200m would anyone other than the officials be able to notice?
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:00 pm

Grasshopper wrote:If the TV coverage of Gay's race hadn't provided a close-up of the curve then we wouldn't be having this conversation. So basically, you (original poster) are saying that Gay should be penalized (or should penalize himself) because his nation is willing to provide high-quality television coverage of his races. Look at the coverage, if any, of other nation's championships. If any of those runners had stepped on the line in the 200m would anyone other than the officials be able to notice?


I saw the violation clearly during the race before any close-up was shown.

Gay penalized himself by running inside the line, a position he should never have put himself in in the first place.

I"m not real concern about what goes on elsewhere at this point. I am concerned about sportsmanship, ethics, and the state of US T&F.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Bob Duncan » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:00 pm

fasttrack85 wrote:Hell to the no. The reason no coach or runner protested is because they had no shot of beating him anyway. If he ran on the outer part or the inner part of his lane or line he would have won. Yeah yeah i know the rules are the rules but damn sometimes I cant deal with all the technicalities. Plus I am still mourning the loss of VCB right now.

I love your attitude.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Grasshopper » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:09 pm

DJG wrote:
Grasshopper wrote:If the TV coverage of Gay's race hadn't provided a close-up of the curve then we wouldn't be having this conversation. So basically, you (original poster) are saying that Gay should be penalized (or should penalize himself) because his nation is willing to provide high-quality television coverage of his races. Look at the coverage, if any, of other nation's championships. If any of those runners had stepped on the line in the 200m would anyone other than the officials be able to notice?


I saw the violation clearly during the race before any close-up was shown.

Gay penalized himself by running inside the line, a position he should never have put himself in in the first place.

I"m not real concern about what goes on elsewhere at this point. I am concerned about sportsmanship, ethics, and the state of US T&F.

Were you at the meet in-person? In the video coverage of the race the close-up of the curve (from a camera placed near the start of the straightaway) was shown first, prior to cutting to the finish-line camera. Unless you were at the meet in-person how were you able to view a non-close-up view prior to seeing that view?
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:17 pm

Grasshopper wrote:
DJG wrote:
Grasshopper wrote:If the TV coverage of Gay's race hadn't provided a close-up of the curve then we wouldn't be having this conversation. So basically, you (original poster) are saying that Gay should be penalized (or should penalize himself) because his nation is willing to provide high-quality television coverage of his races. Look at the coverage, if any, of other nation's championships. If any of those runners had stepped on the line in the 200m would anyone other than the officials be able to notice?


I saw the violation clearly during the race before any close-up was shown.

Gay penalized himself by running inside the line, a position he should never have put himself in in the first place.

I"m not real concern about what goes on elsewhere at this point. I am concerned about sportsmanship, ethics, and the state of US T&F.

Were you at the meet in-person? In the video coverage of the race the close-up of the curve (from a camera placed near the start of the straightaway) was shown first, prior to cutting to the finish-line camera. Unless you were at the meet in-person how were you able to view a non-close-up view prior to seeing that view?


I was referring to the replay close-ups. The camera had switched to a full view of all 8 lanes
And it was easy to see the violation. I was not there in person.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Dave » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:39 pm

Give me a break. It wasn't called. He got no meaningful advantage. No one was hindered.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:51 pm

Dave wrote:Give me a break. It wasn't called. He got no meaningful advantage. No one was hindered.


So if Gay had finished 2nd or 3rd it would be different because then it might have been meaningful?

Who's to say the other runners might have finished better if they were closer to Gay at the 100 m mark?

And Gay was on the line and inside for at least 20 meters, if not 30 or more, which is quite a meaningful advantage at that stage of a 200 meter race.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Dave » Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:57 pm

DJG wrote:
Dave wrote:Give me a break. It wasn't called. He got no meaningful advantage. No one was hindered.


So if Gay had finished 2nd or 3rd it would be different because then it might have been meaningful?

Who's to say the other runners might have finished better if they were closer to Gay at the 100 m mark?

And Gay was on the line and inside for at least 20 meters, if not 30 or more, which is quite a meaningful advantage at that stage of a 200 meter race.


Sport is an imperfect world as is the rest of life. I am pretty sure officials will be watching a lot more carefully next time.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:15 pm

Have you ever officiated the curve lines? I have not done it often but found it to be surprisingly difficult. While it looks clear in high-quality video from the right angle, the officials do not have that angle, they are looking from the side. I have not gone back to watch it but my impression was that he was just hitting the outside of that line. If you are outside, it is not clear because the foot is in front of the line and will look about the same when you are close as when you just hit the line a little bit.

If you are inside, you have a similar problem because you have to see the line 'obscured' to some extent. And, the shoe is wider than the footprint, so it is possible for the foot to look over the line but for the shoe never to touch the line (remember that the forces are pushing to lift the foot out, so especially the right foot will not touch the inside most part of the foot.

Finally, at 22 mph or more, it is very hard to see it all go by, and there is more than one runner to observe per official. May be lonewolf has a comment.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Grasshopper » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:28 pm

DJG wrote:
Dave wrote:Give me a break. It wasn't called. He got no meaningful advantage. No one was hindered.

And Gay was on the line and inside for at least 20 meters, if not 30 or more, which is quite a meaningful advantage at that stage of a 200 meter race.

It appeared that Gay took 1 step slightly over the line and 1-2 steps on the line. Unless his stride length has increased to that of a giraffe then I think you're overexaggerating a bit.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:07 am

To answer the question: no, he shouldn't take himself out. Should he have been disqualified BY AN OFFICIAL. Absolutely!

T&F isn't Golf. Athletes in T&F, like in NFL, ATP/WTA, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS, Volleyball, Boxing...basically any other sport are not expected to officiate themselves. I have no problem with that but maybe we need to go to professional officials so we know who to fire when such an egregious mistake is made. We're talking about WC spots or even an Olympics (had it been last year) and the athletes expect a level playing field; and it isn't when stars are treated differently (Brady NFL; LeBron NBA; Cy Young winner in MLB...).

But when you consider the continuous flexibility to the rules just on entry to the meet...it becomes obvious that "the trials" have long been exposed as an actual selection process. Again, this isn't golf and Tyson Gay doesn't have less integrity for not giving up a spot he earned; the officials are just more culpable for allowing a process that doesn't guarantee fairness - something that can be almost impossible to guarantee.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby 18.99s » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:13 am

Every NBA championship team in history should surrender their title if any of their players got away with traveling during any of their winning games in the playoffs.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:28 am

26mi235 wrote:Have you ever officiated the curve lines? I have not done it often but found it to be surprisingly difficult. While it looks clear in high-quality video from the right angle, the officials do not have that angle, they are looking from the side. I have not gone back to watch it but my impression was that he was just hitting the outside of that line. If you are outside, it is not clear because the foot is in front of the line and will look about the same when you are close as when you just hit the line a little bit.

If you are inside, you have a similar problem because you have to see the line 'obscured' to some extent. And, the shoe is wider than the footprint, so it is possible for the foot to look over the line but for the shoe never to touch the line (remember that the forces are pushing to lift the foot out, so especially the right foot will not touch the inside most part of the foot.

Finally, at 22 mph or more, it is very hard to see it all go by, and there is more than one runner to observe per official. May be lonewolf has a comment.


I have officiated curves and the best angle for an official is up the track and looking back at the runners as they come toward you. The angle problem you describe should not be a factor looking
Back and not perpendicular to the runners. Any input from the LoneWolf is always appreciated..
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Marlow » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:33 am

I'm with batonless relay - uncalled fouls happen all the time in sports - horrible no-calls in a soccer game over the weekend. The ref SHOULD make the call, but if s/he doesn't, that's just part of sports. I've called stuff on myself in the heat of the moment, but I can't ever remember doing it after the fact, in cold-blood, so to speak. Breaks of the game.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:06 am

batonless relay wrote:To answer the question: no, he shouldn't take himself out. Should he have been disqualified BY AN OFFICIAL. Absolutely!

T&F isn't Golf. Athletes in T&F, like in NFL, ATP/WTA, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS, Volleyball, Boxing...basically any other sport are not expected to officiate themselves. I have no problem with that but maybe we need to go to professional officials so we know who to fire when such an egregious mistake is made. We're talking about WC spots or even an Olympics (had it been last year) and the athletes expect a level playing field; and it isn't when stars are treated differently (Brady NFL; LeBron NBA; Cy Young winner in MLB...).

But when you consider the continuous flexibility to the rules just on entry to the meet...it becomes obvious that "the trials" have long been exposed as an actual selection process. Again, this isn't golf and Tyson Gay doesn't have less integrity for not giving up a spot he earned; the officials are just more culpable for allowing a process that doesn't guarantee fairness - something that can be almost impossible to guarantee.


Wouldn't Gay have more integrity than those athletes in other sports? Wouldn't that be a plus for track which is unique in that bad officiating in other sports you mention tends to even out of the long course of the contest to the two teams, while track is a one and done event and getting the calls right is more important and affects many (8 or more) athletes at the same time?
If track wants to be like these other sports, shouldn't it used replays to get the calls right?
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jun 24, 2013 6:05 am

DJG wrote:
batonless relay wrote:To answer the question: no, he shouldn't take himself out. Should he have been disqualified BY AN OFFICIAL. Absolutely!

T&F isn't Golf. Athletes in T&F, like in NFL, ATP/WTA, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS, Volleyball, Boxing...basically any other sport are not expected to officiate themselves. I have no problem with that but maybe we need to go to professional officials so we know who to fire when such an egregious mistake is made. We're talking about WC spots or even an Olympics (had it been last year) and the athletes expect a level playing field; and it isn't when stars are treated differently (Brady NFL; LeBron NBA; Cy Young winner in MLB...).

But when you consider the continuous flexibility to the rules just on entry to the meet...it becomes obvious that "the trials" have long been exposed as an actual selection process. Again, this isn't golf and Tyson Gay doesn't have less integrity for not giving up a spot he earned; the officials are just more culpable for allowing a process that doesn't guarantee fairness - something that can be almost impossible to guarantee.


Wouldn't Gay have more integrity than those athletes in other sports? Wouldn't that be a plus for track which is unique in that bad officiating in other sports you mention tends to even out of the long course of the contest to the two teams, while track is a one and done event and getting the calls right is more important and affects many (8 or more) athletes at the same time?
If track wants to be like these other sports, shouldn't it used replays to get the calls right?

You want integrity to be what you want it to be and it doesn't work like that; whether it hurts 8 or 55 or 105, bad calls at the wrong time can always be one and done. Think Misouri/Colorado game in 1990 where CO got 5 downs. It's the ONLY reason they won the game and because of it shared the National Championship with GaTech. So it wouldn't be a plus to give up the spot, I think it would be stupid; and I bet his sponsors (his 'teammates') would also think it's stupid. Also replay is not perfect. There are times when the "call on the field" can't be overturned by replay. Should Sandy Koufax give back the no-hitters where there were called strikes but weren't? Does he have any less integrity because the umpire "gave him one ...or a dozen" over the course of a game?
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:22 am

batonless relay wrote:
DJG wrote:
batonless relay wrote:To answer the question: no, he shouldn't take himself out. Should he have been disqualified BY AN OFFICIAL. Absolutely!

T&F isn't Golf. Athletes in T&F, like in NFL, ATP/WTA, NBA, MLB, NHL, MLS, Volleyball, Boxing...basically any other sport are not expected to officiate themselves. I have no problem with that but maybe we need to go to professional officials so we know who to fire when such an egregious mistake is made. We're talking about WC spots or even an Olympics (had it been last year) and the athletes expect a level playing field; and it isn't when stars are treated differently (Brady NFL; LeBron NBA...etc.

But when you consider the continuous flexibility to the rules just on entry to the meet...it becomes obvious that "the trials" have long been exposed as an actual selection process. Again, this isn't golf and Tyson Gay doesn't have less integrity for not giving up a spot he earned; the officials are just more culpable for allowing a process that doesn't guarantee fairness - something that can be almost impossible to guarantee.




Wouldn't Gay have more integrity than those athletes in other sports? Wouldn't that be a plus for track which is unique in that bad officiating in other sports you mention tends to even out of the long course of the contest to the two teams, while track is a one and done event and getting the calls right is more important and affects many (8 or more) athletes at the same time?
If track wants to be like these other sports, shouldn't it used replays to get the calls right?

You want integrity to be what you want it to be and it doesn't work like that; whether it hurts 8 or 55 or 105, bad calls at the wrong time can always be one and done. Think Misouri/Colorado game in 1990 where CO got 5 downs. It's the ONLY reason they won the game and because of it shared the National Championship with GaTech. So it wouldn't be a plus to give up the spot, I think it would be stupid; and I bet his sponsors (his 'teammates') would also think it's stupid. Also replay is not perfect. There are times when the "call on the field" can't be overturned by replay. Should Sandy Koufax give back the no-hitters where there were called strikes but weren't? Does he have any less integrity because the umpire "gave him one ...or a dozen" over the course of a game?


I don't think my concept of integrity is "what I want it to be." I think I see this as an opportunity for someone in track to make the point that the much-maligned image of the sport can be improved, and it would be a great story for the general public to see an athlete do something to possibly help the sport. Pipe dream? No doubt, but what's a dreamer to do!

And the Colorado Buffaloes football program has been a disgrace ever since they benefitted so richly from an officiating error.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Grasshopper » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:31 am

DJG wrote:I don't think my concept of integrity is "what I want it to be." I think I see this as an opportunity for someone in track to make the point that the much-maligned image of the sport can be improved, and it would be a great story for the general public to see an athlete do something to possibly help the sport. Pipe dream? No doubt, but what's a dreamer to do!

And the Colorado Buffaloes football program has been a disgrace ever since they benefitted so richly from an officiating error.

So you think it would be good for the sport for a high-profile athlete to make a bold public statement that our sports officials are incompetent, and bring attention to a rule-infraction that is likely occurring at every world championship qualifying event but not noticed or enforced at the majority of those because of similar incompetence and/or the lack of quality (or any) television coverage?
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Grasshopper » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:32 am

Grasshopper wrote:
DJG wrote:I don't think my concept of integrity is "what I want it to be." I think I see this as an opportunity for someone in track to make the point that the much-maligned image of the sport can be improved, and it would be a great story for the general public to see an athlete do something to possibly help the sport. Pipe dream? No doubt, but what's a dreamer to do!

And the Colorado Buffaloes football program has been a disgrace ever since they benefitted so richly from an officiating error.

So you think it would be good for the sport for a high-profile athlete to make a bold public statement that our sport's officials are incompetent, and bring attention to a rules-violation that is likely occurring at every world championship qualifying event but not noticed or enforced at the majority of those because of similar incompetence and/or the lack of quality (or any) television coverage?
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:43 am

Marlow wrote:I'm with batonless relay - uncalled fouls happen all the time in sports - horrible no-calls in a soccer game over the weekend. The ref SHOULD make the call, but if s/he doesn't, that's just part of sports. I've called stuff on myself in the heat of the moment, but I can't ever remember doing it after the fact, in cold-blood, so to speak. Breaks of the game.


Once our triple jumper was in a meet where she had to jump from the board further from the pit than she was sure of making it into the pit. I had her deliberately foul by taking off well beyond the board to ascertain whether she could indeed reach. Much to my surprise the official called it a "good jump" and the mark moved her into the finals where she had no right to be. It took 10 minutes to explain to this official that he had missed the foul and that the mark should be negated. He finally agreed to correct this mistake and place the athlete in the finals who deserved to be there. Perhaps I did the wrong thing?

I' m not a soccer fan, but I do think that the dramatic acting involved in drawing a foul call has no equivalent in the great sport of Track & Field.

This was no foul like in basketball where fouls are expected and they give you five fouls.

Any chance these officials actually saw the lane violation and didn't call it because of whom it was?
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:54 am

Grasshopper wrote:
DJG wrote:I don't think my concept of integrity is "what I want it to be." I think I see this as an opportunity for someone in track to make the point that the much-maligned image of the sport can be improved, and it would be a great story for the general public to see an athlete do something to possibly help the sport. Pipe dream? No doubt, but what's a dreamer to do!

And the Colorado Buffaloes football program has been a disgrace ever since they benefitted so richly from an officiating error.

So you think it would be good for the sport for a high-profile athlete to make a bold public statement that our sports officials are incompetent, and bring attention to a rule-infraction that is likely occurring at every world championship qualifying event but not noticed or enforced at the majority of those because of similar incompetence and/or the lack of quality (or any) television coverage?


I would think more along the lines that a high-profile athlete admits he made a mistake and is owning up to it. Kind of like NCAA football and basketball programs "self- reporting" their violations. The argument that it happens elsewhere is used, I'm fairly sure, to justify more serious infractions of the rules of the sport.
And let's not forget that another athlete is not on the team because of this mistake.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:57 am

Tyson Gay should move on with the rest of his life much like the vast majority of us have chosen to do. He ran, lane violation wasn't seen and he lived to run another round.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:13 am

If Gay had deliberately fouled to test the traction in the other lane it would be a similar case.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby trackinblack2 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:23 am

Dutra5 wrote:Tyson Gay should move on with the rest of his life much like the vast majority of us have chosen to do. He ran, lane violation wasn't seen and he lived to run another round.

Would the same discussion be taking place if it was Usain Bolt who did this?
For goodness sake it wasn't called. I wish I could run as fast as Tyson. It must feel wonderful.
He gained nothing in either time or place no one was hindered. Why would you want to
weaken your National Team over a BS situation like this? Some of you "Anal Retentives" need an Enema!
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby mal » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:28 am

DJG wrote:
jamal00005 wrote:Oh FFS absolute rubbish....why should he take himself off the team ? He won the championship and therefore deserves to get his spot in Moscow....so what if he ran on the line....apprently only Ato saw


Not off the team, out of the 200 which he didn't earn because of his lane violation.

Only in Ato's mind was he the only one who saw it.


Wow you have a whole plethora of silly posts on this.

There is no 'significant' advantage here. If anything it showed that Gay had 'fallen' off his stride and running slower. It was a heat, so he needed no advantage while he was cruising. Most likely that was the cause of his 'fall'.

This is not an issue of integrity, never has been never will be. Nothing but a couple of unintended bad steps that were missed by the judge. Worse things happen every race that occurs outside of lanes. (800 + )

If this is an integrity issue for you, you need to stop watching sport.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:42 am

Lonewolf does have an opinion.

Bad calls/no calls/missed calls are a part of all sports. Officials for national meets are qualified by experience and demonstrated inpartiality. They are not selected from the white pages or drawn out of a hat.

From the vantage of a perfect camera angle, we can pontificate about the rules but from the outside of the curve, trying to focus on one or two lanes as eight runners go by at 20 mph, it ain't than easy.You cannot practically review every race/jump/throw of a track meet to, theoretically, get every call perfect.

Every runner hugs the inner line but, in most cases, are not even aware when they inadvertently step on the line. I don't know if the umpire assigned to that lane and portion of the curve saw Gay step on the line but I sincerely doubt that the official cut Gay any slack because it was Gay. Gay did not interfere with the adjacent runner and any advantage gained was irrelevant to the outcome of the race.

Gay is under no technical or moral obligation to resign his position anymore than if a review of every discus throw revealed a missed call of a sole touching the top of the ring.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby booond » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:35 am

lonewolf wrote:Lonewolf does have an opinion.

Bad calls/no calls/missed calls are a part of all sports. Officials for national meets are qualified by experience and demonstrated inpartiality. They are not selected from the white pages or drawn out of a hat.

From the vantage of a perfect camera angle, we can pontificate about the rules but from the outside of the curve, trying to focus on one or two lanes as eight runners go by at 20 mph, it ain't than easy.You cannot practically review every race/jump/throw of a track meet to, theoretically, get every call perfect.

Every runner hugs the inner line but, in most cases, are not even aware when they inadvertently step on the line. I don't know if the umpire assigned to that lane and portion of the curve saw Gay step on the line but I sincerely doubt that the official cut Gay any slack because it was Gay. Gay did not interfere with the adjacent runner and any advantage gained was irrelevant to the outcome of the race.

Gay is under no technical or moral obligation to resign his position anymore than if a review of every discus throw revealed a missed call of a sole touching the top of the ring.


Correct.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:04 am

lonewolf wrote:Lonewolf does have an opinion.

Bad calls/no calls/missed calls are a part of all sports. Officials for national meets are qualified by experience and demonstrated inpartiality. They are not selected from the white pages or drawn out of a hat.

From the vantage of a perfect camera angle, we can pontificate about the rules but from the outside of the curve, trying to focus on one or two lanes as eight runners go by at 20 mph, it ain't than easy.You cannot practically review every race/jump/throw of a track meet to, theoretically, get every call perfect.

Every runner hugs the inner line but, in most cases, are not even aware when they inadvertently step on the line. I don't know if the umpire assigned to that lane and portion of the curve saw Gay step on the line but I sincerely doubt that the official cut Gay any slack because it was Gay. Gay did not interfere with the adjacent runner and any advantage gained was irrelevant to the outcome of the race.

Gay is under no technical or moral obligation to resign his position anymore than if a review of every discus throw revealed a missed call of a sole touching the top of the ring.


As I mentioned before I have found input from LoneWolf to always add something of value to a discussion. As to the official, I am not so sure that the official wouldn't have cut Tyson some slack. And do we really want officials to wait until the race is over and the results are posted to decide what is relevant or not? I prefer officials to raise the flag when they see a lane violation
And not wait and judge whether it was irrelevant to the outcome.

I do not think Gay or any of his coaches would give two seconds of thought as to giving up his place in the 200. I guess the half empty stadium at Drake and the sorry image of Track &Field got me dreaming up a dramatic story line to catch national attention for the upcoming WC's.
As mal wrote If this is an integrity issue, maybe I shouldn't watch sports. Definitely something to consider.

Thanks all for your comments.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:17 pm

DJG wrote:[
As I mentioned before I have found input from LoneWolf to always add something of value to a discussion. As to the official, I am not so sure that the official wouldn't have cut Tyson some slack. And do we really want officials to wait until the race is over and the results are posted to decide what is relevant or not? I prefer officials to raise the flag when they see a lane violation And not wait and judge whether it was irrelevant to the outcome.


DJG, I appreciate your vote of confidence and understand your skepticism but I do not think delayed reaction is what happened here.
This was the first USATF Ch I have missed working in twenty years. I know 90 % of the officials, including the umpires who work most major meets as a well coordinated crew.

They are not perfect but I also know they would not blink at throwing a flag; oblivious to who was in that lane. Someone posted on this or the other 200m thread that they had spoken to the umpire who was on that curve who confirmed no umpire saw the alleged violation.

Admittedly, that is the expected response but I have no reason to not believe him.

I know officials that take any opportunity of be at the center of a rules controversy; suspectedly not in the interest of justice but to emphasize their importance and knowledge of the rules. These officials do not get invited to national championships.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby DJG » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:33 pm

lonewolf wrote:
DJG wrote:[
As I mentioned before I have found input from LoneWolf to always add something of value to a discussion. As to the official, I am not so sure that the official wouldn't have cut Tyson some slack. And do we really want officials to wait until the race is over and the results are posted to decide what is relevant or not? I prefer officials to raise the flag when they see a lane violation And not wait and judge whether it was irrelevant to the outcome.


DJG, I appreciate your vote of confidence and understand your skepticism but I do not think delayed reaction is what happened here.
This was the first USATF Ch I have missed working in twenty years. I know 90 % of the officials, including the umpires who work most major meets as a well coordinated crew.

They are not perfect but I also know they would not blink at throwing a flag; oblivious to who was in that lane. Someone posted on this or the other 200m thread that they had spoken to the umpire who was on that curve who confirmed no umpire saw the alleged violation.

Admittedly, that is the expected response but I have no reason to not believe him.

I know officials that take any opportunity of be at the center of a rules controversy; suspectedly not in the interest of justice but to emphasize their importance and knowledge of the rules. These officials do not get invited to national championships.



LoneWolf, thanks for your reply. Please pass on a suggestion for me to your official friends.
In other sports, like football and basketball, the officials communicate with the crowd and the TV audience just what is going on as related to penalties or violations of the rules. When you have to re-start several races and no one is DQ''ed would it be asking too much to explain what is going on? The broadcast
Crew for NBC needs all the help they can get! Thanks LoneWolf.
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Re: Should Tyson Gay take himself out of the WC's 200?

Postby Ned Ryerson » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:29 pm

DJG,

What would have been your recommended course of action when Carl Lewis's 30ft jump was mistakenly called foul by officials?

I would also offer that, like American football, there's a procedure for this. If the official/referee sees a foul, a flag is thrown. If there's a penalty that the officials don't see during the course of play, there's an opportunity to challenge the previous ruling. But it's not the responsibility of the party that has possibly committed the foul to police themselves.

In this case, no official saw a violation during the competition, and no one challenged the results. And now we move on to the next play.
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