Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined


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Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:05 am

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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:29 am

This is huge indeed. IMO, this is the second best job in the nation behind the Oregon job.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:53 am

jazzcyclist wrote:This is huge indeed. IMO, this is the second best job in the nation behind the Oregon job.


I'm not even so sure it's 2nd-best.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:55 am

A week for retirements, first Nuttycombe at Wisconsin and now Thorton at Texas.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:02 pm

26mi235 wrote:A week for retirements, first Nuttycombe at Wisconsin and now Thorton at Texas.

Don't forget Ron Allice at USC.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:03 pm

KevinM wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:This is huge indeed. IMO, this is the second best job in the nation behind the Oregon job.


I'm not even so sure it's 2nd-best.

Which would you put #2?
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:07 pm

Schools that are competitive in all three sports.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:08 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
KevinM wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:This is huge indeed. IMO, this is the second best job in the nation behind the Oregon job.


I'm not even so sure it's 2nd-best.

Which would you put #2?


Sorry - I meant that I'm not sure Oregon is a clear #1 (i.e., UT might be a better job with regard to ability to win national meets).
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:21 pm

To win all 3 I would put Arkansas over Texas
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:25 pm

batonless relay wrote:To win all 3 I would put Arkansas over Texas


Based on past results, sure. I'm talking about potential.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:42 pm

KevinM wrote:
batonless relay wrote:To win all 3 I would put Arkansas over Texas


Based on past results, sure. I'm talking about potential.

That's what I'm talking about too. Also, Arkansas is still not a combined program and they've never really been a major player on the women's side. I would rather have a program capable of winning both men's and women's championships than one that was capable of winning the triple crown. Oregon is the only program that is both triple-crown capable and both-gender capable.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:46 pm

Some of Lance Harter's late-90s/early 2000s teams were definitely major players in both XC and track.

Edit: They actually just won a trophy indoors (4th) and placed 8th outdoors (in addition to 18th in XC).
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:52 pm

KevinM wrote:Some of Lance Harter's late-90s/early 2000s teams were definitely major players in both XC and track.

Agreed. And, they're still a better program than Texas today on the Women's side and there is no reason why that can't continue.

2012 XC:
1 Oregon 2 3 28 32 49 77 126 114
18 Arkansas 41 72 85 109 142 160 175 449;
25 Texas 16 43 118 166 183 209 213 526

2013 Indoor:
1) Oregon 56
4) Arkansas 42.5
18) Texas 12

2013 Outdoor:
3 Oregon 43.0
8 Arkansas 30.0
15 Texas 18.0
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby LH06 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:56 pm

Well today's results for the Texas women's team was kind of hit by the Bev issue. They lost their star runner Allison Peter who would have helped racked a good number of points along w/ another scorer missing from the NCAA. Texas could be very balanced if the program is managed well.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:01 pm

batonless relay wrote:Agreed. And, they're still a better program than Texas today on the Women's side and there is no reason why that can't continue.


Ignore current results for a second - do you really think the advantages at Arkansas are superior to those at Texas? Think budget, in-state talent, name recognition, location...
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:06 pm

KevinM wrote:Some of Lance Harter's late-90s/early 2000s teams were definitely major players in both XC and track.

Edit: They actually just won a trophy indoors (4th) and placed 8th outdoors (in addition to 18th in XC).

But yet, based on your previous post, you still rate Texas over Arkansas. I don't think that today's Texas women's program is representative of what it's capable of once the recent chaos is replaced with the peace and calm that steady leadership would bring. All you have to do is count the number of national championships that they've won compared to Arkansas. Also, let's make syre we're comparing apples to apples and not apples to oranges. When I use the phrase "best Job", I'm talking about the most coveted job among the coaching fraternity, not the program that is the winningest at the moment.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:08 pm

KevinM wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Agreed. And, they're still a better program than Texas today on the Women's side and there is no reason why that can't continue.


Ignore current results for a second - do you really think the advantages at Arkansas are superior to those at Texas? Think budget, in-state talent, name recognition, location...

Exactly! There's nothing that Arkansas can ever do about its geographical disadvantages, and Texas can, and most certainly will, match them when it comes to financial resources.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby TxHottrack » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:11 pm

LH06 wrote:Well today's results for the Texas women's team was kind of hit by the Bev issue. They lost their star runner Allison Peter who would have helped racked a good number of points along w/ another scorer missing from the NCAA. Texas could be very balanced if the program is managed well.



Ditto!
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:17 pm

Texas is a sleeping giant. Thornton underachieved on the men's side and with Bev gone, the drama has left the women's side. This is no Penn State-Jerry Sandusky situation in which the program has been stigmatized for years to come.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:23 pm

KevinM wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Agreed. And, they're still a better program than Texas today on the Women's side and there is no reason why that can't continue.


Ignore current results for a second - do you really think the advantages at Arkansas are superior to those at Texas? Think budget, in-state talent, name recognition, location...

If we're going by in-state talent, then we probably wouldn't include Oregon ( :shock: leave out Ryan Bailey, Galen Rupp and Ashton Eaton). And, Texas is a big name, but for people in the sport so is AR (Joe Falcon, Tyson Gay, Mike Conley). High school coaches MAY be more likely to guide their distance runners to AR than TX. And, AR is a hilly state in the SEC (sprint country) while TX has to compete with Houston, Tech, Baylor, TCU and A&M for in-state talent. I'm not saying AR is superior on the criteria you outlined, just that TX can't exactly blow people out of the water and I wouldn't be surprised, despite their wealth if they never beat AR again.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:38 pm

Oregon has advantages such as fan support and tradition that will never be duplicated anywhere in the foreseeable future. Track and field stars are celebrated in Eugene like nowhere else in the country. Arkansas doesn't have this either.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:42 pm

We're speaking different languages here, batonless.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby LH06 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:57 pm

If Texas put more money into recruiting distance runners, they'd be a very ideal place. Austin is a very outdoorsy city with good running spots. It's hip that would attract the hipster distance runners. You have Flotrack in austin that most distance runners follow. You have Rogue Running that one of the assistant coaches leads. They are very capable of doing awesome in XC. I know it's no Oregon set-up, but they could have a lot going for them

batonless relay wrote:
KevinM wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Agreed. And, they're still a better program than Texas today on the Women's side and there is no reason why that can't continue.


Ignore current results for a second - do you really think the advantages at Arkansas are superior to those at Texas? Think budget, in-state talent, name recognition, location...

If we're going by in-state talent, then we probably wouldn't include Oregon ( :shock: leave out Ryan Bailey, Galen Rupp and Ashton Eaton). And, Texas is a big name, but for people in the sport so is AR (Joe Falcon, Tyson Gay, Mike Conley). High school coaches MAY be more likely to guide their distance runners to AR than TX. And, AR is a hilly state in the SEC (sprint country) while TX has to compete with Houston, Tech, Baylor, TCU and A&M for in-state talent. I'm not saying AR is superior on the criteria you outlined, just that TX can't exactly blow people out of the water and I wouldn't be surprised, despite their wealth if they never beat AR again.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby valleyrunner » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:00 pm

Note Arkansas has very little home grown talent (mistakenly noted above that Gay was from Arkansas - nope Lexington, Ky) much like Oregon but Arkansas is next to Texas and Oregon is next to Cali and this has allowed each to attract a decent number of their stars over the years.

Now IMHO I would rate Texas as best job in nation with the weather, financial support and huge talent pool in-state that they could get vast majority of with the right coach/staff in place even against A&M with Pat Henry on the short side of his tenure anyway.

Perhaps even Robert Johnson will be tempted away for this job as they can exceed Oregon on money and he may just want to get out from under Vin's shadow and all that comes with being the head coach at Oregon.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:10 pm

valleyrunner wrote:Perhaps even Robert Johnson will be tempted away for this job as they can exceed Oregon on money and he may just want to get out from under Vin's shadow and all that comes with being the head coach at Oregon.

I doubt very seriously that Phil Knight would allow Oregon to lose a bidding war over a coach that he wanted to keep.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:21 pm

I wasn't talking about origin, I was talking about history. I know Gay's from KY; I also know Conley is from IL. The point is that AR is a national program and is recognized across all of the seasons as a player on the mens and the women's side. Thinking that AR is just going to disappear is just wishful thinking. Texas has all of these same advantages in football and they were barely competitive this year; we can say the same for ND in previous years for football. I think T&F is more sticky than is football.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby valleyrunner » Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:44 pm

batonless my bad, way I read it made me think that was your statement. You are right Hogs are a national program and can attract pretty much anyone they want.

jazzcyclist of course Knight could keep Johnson if it was only about money, but if Johnson wants a great job not in the shadow of Oregon and with more diversity then Austin is a great fit. Johnson will listen is my bet if only to get more money but I actually see him as a serious candidate. He is not a distance guy and while he appreciates the distance element he no doubt would like to be at a place where that limitation doesn't limit his team building efforts.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:24 pm

valleyrunner wrote:batonless my bad, way I read it made me think that was your statement. You are right Hogs are a national program and can attract pretty much anyone they want.

jazzcyclist of course Knight could keep Johnson if it was only about money, but if Johnson wants a great job not in the shadow of Oregon and with more diversity then Austin is a great fit. Johnson will listen is my bet if only to get more money but I actually see him as a serious candidate. He is not a distance guy and while he appreciates the distance element he no doubt would like to be at a place where that limitation doesn't limit his team building efforts.

Now I'm confused. What did you mean by this comment?

"they can exceed Oregon on money"

I don't think anyone here meant to imply that Arkansas wasn't one of the best jobs in the country. The question was whether it was better than the Texas job.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:30 pm

[quote="batonless relay"
If we're going by in-state talent, then we probably wouldn't include Oregon ( :shock: leave out Ryan Bailey, Galen Rupp and Ashton Eaton). .[/quote]

Courser (x5 or so although one notably defect to ... Texas) -- and one might also want to include Pre.

In addition, there is always that Nike thing.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby EPelle » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:49 pm

Who was it that wrote that Oregon [with 20 national titles] has track & field athletes celebrated like no where in the country, inferring that a place like Arkansas, with 39 national titles, doesn't? The Razorbacks have track & field stars, and they're certainly lauded for their accomplishments. With the Razorbacks having won all of those championships to-date, AND being the most successful NCAA indoor/outdoor/cross programme in history, I'm sure one or more of their fan base at Razorback Fan Nation would disagree about them not being greatly celebrated. How is the barometre measuring this?
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby LadyT » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:59 pm

That's a HUGE job and I am interested in seeing who gets the job. The USC job is already taken by Carol Smith-Gilbert. I wonder if her star pupils Freeman and Scott will remain at UCF. Next question is, who will go after the UCF job and who is going to get the Clemson head job?
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:26 pm

batonless relay wrote:The point is that AR is a national program and is recognized across all of the seasons as a player on the mens and the women's side. Thinking that AR is just going to disappear is just wishful thinking.


Hey, it's your strawman. I think Texas is a better job. It's a pretty simple concept, and shouldn't be confused with anyone taking a stand against any other program.

Texas has all of these same advantages in football and they were barely competitive this year;


Yup, and lots of people think Mack Brown is in way over his head. Again. What part of "potential" do you not get?
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:37 pm

EPelle wrote:Who was it that wrote that Oregon [with 20 national titles] has track & field athletes celebrated like no where in the country, inferring that a place like Arkansas, with 39 national titles, doesn't? The Razorbacks have track & field stars, and they're certainly lauded for their accomplishments. With the Razorbacks having won all of those championships to-date, AND being the most successful NCAA indoor/outdoor/cross programme in history, I'm sure one or more of their fan base at Razorback Fan Nation would disagree about them not being greatly celebrated. How is the barometre measuring this?

I don't know how much opportunity you've had to attend American university meets since I believe you're European, but let me share a few anecdotes and facts with you.

Arkansas has hosted the NCAA Outdoor meet just once in its history while LSU has hosted it four times. Tennessee is the only other SEC school that's hosted and they've done it twice. No other SEC school has the facilities to host which is an indication of a school's commitment to the sport. However, Arkansas has hosted the Indoor Championships many (10?) times due their state-of-the-art indoor facility.

It is true that Arkansas has won more "track & field and cross country championships" than any other school in the nation but LSU has won more "track & field championsips" than any other school. In the U.S., indoor track and field is a lot less prestigious than outdoor track & field and cross country, which is basically distance running (a subset of track and field), is a lot less prestigious than indoor track and field. The NCAA Outdoors is broadcast live and replayed over and over for the week following the championships. The NCAA Indoor is a tape-delayed broadcast that is played a week after the event. The NCAA Cross Country Championships isn't televised at all.

The last time LSU hosted NCAA's (2002), it was standing room only despite the fact that there was a baseball Super Regional taking place right across the street, which is a big deal, since LSU has led the nation in baseball attendance for approximately the last 20 years and that place was standing room only too. IIRC, there were a lot of empty seats in Fayetteville in 2009 when Arkansas hosted, much to my surprise.

For the last five or six years since the internet began driving newspapers into bankruptcy, there have only been two newspapers in the nation that have kept a dedicated track and field beat writer on board. Those newspapers are of course the Register-Guard (Eugene), and believe it or not the Advocate (Baton Rouge).

My point is that LSU has arguably more going for it than Arkansas when it comes to intangibles like fan support and tradition, but it's still not in the same league as Oregon, and I think most Razorback fans would concede the same point about Arkansas.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby EPelle » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:55 am

Whilst Thornton has retired, Coach Frye on Monday was extended four more years with the Gamecocks.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:29 am

EPelle wrote:Whilst Thornton has retired, Coach Frye on Monday was extended four more years with the Gamecocks.


Speaking of programs that have sort of fallen off the map...
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:37 am

KevinM wrote:
EPelle wrote:Whilst Thornton has retired, Coach Frye on Monday was extended four more years with the Gamecocks.


Speaking of programs that have sort of fallen off the map...

I wonder how much effect Allen Johnson's message board tirade against him had on the program. I don't think I have ever seen another athlete of his stature attack a coach in such an overt and viscious manner.
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby dl » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:44 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
KevinM wrote:
EPelle wrote:Whilst Thornton has retired, Coach Frye on Monday was extended four more years with the Gamecocks.


Speaking of programs that have sort of fallen off the map...

I wonder how much effect Allen Johnson's message board tirade against him had on the program. I don't think I have ever seen another athlete of his stature attack a coach in such an overt and viscious manner.


Do you have a link to that?
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby KevinM » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:53 am

dl wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
KevinM wrote:
EPelle wrote:Whilst Thornton has retired, Coach Frye on Monday was extended four more years with the Gamecocks.


Speaking of programs that have sort of fallen off the map...

I wonder how much effect Allen Johnson's message board tirade against him had on the program. I don't think I have ever seen another athlete of his stature attack a coach in such an overt and viscious manner.


Do you have a link to that?


Dan - here's the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29796&hilit=Frye
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:54 am

dl wrote:Do you have a link to that?

His username is "sub13". Do you know how to use the search function?
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Re: Thornton to retire, UT programs to be combined

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:07 pm

Tonja Buford-Bailey has taken a job as one of Mario Sategna's assistants. I wonder how much that cost. It couldn't have been cheap to get a head coach at a Big Ten school to take a demotion.

http://www.texassports.com/sports/m-tra ... 13aaa.html
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