Enough Asafa!!


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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby Speedster » Tue May 21, 2013 8:08 am

gh wrote:What's really at the crux of this whole debate is who "owns" the spot. I steadfastly maintain that you run/jump/throw your way onto these squads (at least in a Trials-definitive nation like the U.S.), and once you've done that, it's a piece of real property that's your to dispose of as you see fit.

If athlete B gets deprived of a chance to compete while you shlub it up, so be it. B had his chance but failed to beat you when it counted. End of story.

Having said that, when it comes to relay positions, and there's a certain amount of "country" involved (to say nothing of impacting 3 other people), I would think there's a certain obligation to step aside.


Spot on gh, if you want Powell's spot, go and beat him to it. Thinking of the relay your point is also valid and Asafa did step aside when injured in London to allow others to race to a WR and Gold Medal.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby EPelle » Tue May 21, 2013 8:28 am

. . . As did Merritt in London as well. When it wasn't about him, but about the team.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 21, 2013 8:33 am

Merritt also had a rather better season's resume than the next athlete in, unless they were at the WL level. That alone makes is different than Dowdie; add in his prior medals and you have an even bigger difference.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue May 21, 2013 9:58 am

gh wrote:What's really at the crux of this whole debate is who "owns" the spot. I steadfastly maintain that you run/jump/throw your way onto these squads (at least in a Trials-definitive nation like the U.S.), and once you've done that, it's a piece of real property that's your to dispose of as you see fit.

If athlete B gets deprived of a chance to compete while you shlub it up, so be it. B had his chance but failed to beat you when it counted. End of story.

Amen gh! I couldn't have said it better myself. 8-)
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue May 21, 2013 10:58 am

batonless relay wrote:Where did I say that it was days? :roll: You are so hell bent on making the JAAAs monsters that you've resorted to telling bald-face untruths to buttress your points? No, you're wrong and you have no incontrovertible facts, just sales pitch assumptions in the hopes that posters will believe you know what you're talking about. My "chronology" was never put forward. Dowdie would need SURGERY for what was ailing her! You're incontrovertible "facts" conveniently leave that out! Days, weeks, months...it wouldn't have mattered. She couldn't run!

You aren't Dowdie's doctor and you don't know what you're talking about. I followed that situation pretty closely, and now you're just making stuff up. Why would so many members of the Jamaican Olympic team have been willing to picket the JAAA on TV if the situation was as you described? Certainly they would have been privy to all the inside information that you supposedly have. Also, why would her coaches have been willing to put a crippled athlete into the starting blocks? Finally, since the alternate would have already been in Sydney anyway, why couldn't the JAAA wait until the deadline for the declaration date to replace her instead of doing it weeks before her 1st-round heat?
batonless relay wrote:Even in the first past the post system (USA) it is MY OPINION that athletes have a responsibility to "give up" the spot if they are a shell of their healthy selves. I'm not talking about aches and pains; I'm talking about not being able to perform to the level of a replacement. I think this answers the Merritt question. (assuming that the IAAF did not give countries a wild card for world champions, then I would expect the same of them - which would mean that an Anjanette Kirkland would have been wrong to keep the spot if there were only 3, instead of the 4 that the USA had)

Well, at least we agree on Merritt. Obviously, the JAAA and USATF have two different systems. In the U.S., the spot is the property of the athlete, while in Jamaica, the spot is the property of the JAAA. However, I believe that even under the Jamaican system, Dowdie should have been given more latitude. I see no reason why they couldn't have allowed her to show fitness two days before her heat, which would have still allowed them to replace her with the alternate if she was unfit, but would have also given her more time to get healthy. The bottom line is that at the time the JAAA made to decision to take her spot away, there's no way they could have known with certainty that she would be unfit to compete on the day of her 1st-round heat, but there was a rush to judgement. partly for political reasons, and all we can do now is speculate on what might have been.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue May 21, 2013 11:06 am

EPelle wrote:. . . As did Merritt in London as well. When it wasn't about him, but about the team.

:? Perhaps my sarcasm detector isn't working, but I must point out that even in nations with first-pass-the-post systems like the U.S., relay spots have always been the property of the federation, not the athlete. Merrritt, who couldn't even finish his heat, didn't do anyone any favors in London.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue May 21, 2013 11:11 am

26mi235 wrote:Merritt also had a rather better season's resume than the next athlete in, unless they were at the WL level. That alone makes is different than Dowdie; add in his prior medals and you have an even bigger difference.

I don't see how his resume has any relevance here. This debate is about fitness, not credentials, and it's pretty obvious that the alternate could have performed better than Merritt in London.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby batonless relay » Tue May 21, 2013 11:54 am

jazzcyclist wrote:You aren't Dowdie's doctor and you don't know what you're talking about. I followed that situation pretty closely, and now you're just making stuff up. Why would so many members of the Jamaican Olympic team have been willing to picket the JAAA on TV if the situation was as you described? Certainly they would have been privy to all the inside information that you supposedly have. Also, why would her coaches have been willing to put a crippled athlete into the starting blocks? Finally, since the alternate would have already been in Sydney anyway, why couldn't the JAAA wait until the deadline for the declaration date to replace her instead of doing it weeks before her 1st-round heat?

So you have to be her doctor to comment? :roll: You're not the authority on all things LSU and you're certainly not when it crosses the shores to "the land of wood and water". You're wrong; it doesn't matter how [closely you think you followed] - you don't have the facts. Jamaican team protesters apologized for their reaction to a PERCEIVED injustice. They were wrong and they admitted it, lets see if you have the character to do the same.
jazzcyclist wrote:Well, at least we agree on Merritt. Obviously, the JAAA and USATF have two different systems. In the U.S., the spot is the property of the athlete, while in Jamaica, the spot is the property of the JAAA. However, I believe that even under the Jamaican system, Dowdie should have been given more latitude. I see no reason why they couldn't have allowed her to show fitness two days before her heat,...The bottom line is that at the time the JAAA made to decision to take her spot away, there's no way they could have known with certainty that she would be unfit to compete on the day of her 1st-round heat, but there was a rush to judgement. partly for political reasons, and all we can do now is speculate on what might have been.

Should I jump up and down that I managed to agree with you? That reads really arrogant! Again, time was not the issue, health was. She was avoiding practice so that the National Team coaches would not realize that she was hurt. She EARNED her spot and the only way that she felt that she could remain an Olympian was to not practice, so she attempted to hide her injury so teh coaches wouldn't have an excuse to give her spot to Merlene (a spot that many believed, with some merit, that the JAAAs were trying to give to Merlene anyway; they may have been right, but in this case, it doesn't hold - because PGD was already hurt.). If PGD was running the times that she was running at the JA Trials in 2000, they would have told Merlene to pound sand. That's my belief. I personally believe that ALL countries should be first past the post, but that's just not realistic and it wasn't for Jamaica in 2000 (obviously in 2008, the JAAAs left VCB off the 100m team for SAF).
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby gh » Tue May 21, 2013 11:58 am

jazz/batonless... you guys are done for this thread, please. Your lengthy personal arguments have once again grown tiresome.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 21, 2013 12:36 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Merritt also had a rather better season's resume than the next athlete in, unless they were at the WL level. That alone makes is different than Dowdie; add in his prior medals and you have an even bigger difference.

I don't see how his resume has any relevance here. This debate is about fitness, not credentials, and it's pretty obvious that the alternate could have performed better than Merritt in London.


If there is a 10% chance that he will be fine and a 50% chance that he will win Gold if he is fine (plus another set of probabilities for 2nd and 3rd), then he has a 5% chance of Gold.

Enter fourth best runner. 90% chance of being fine, 1% chance of winning Gold if fine. = 0.9%.

If your the Federation you want Merritt, not a fill in. Now, it depends on the quality of the fill in. In the Dowdie case, her chances were low and her replacement might have been higher even before the conditional probability. So Dowdie: 10% of being fine, 10% if fine => 1%; replacement 90% chance of being fine, 10% chance of winning if fine => 9%.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby DentyCracker » Tue May 21, 2013 5:32 pm

jazz is wrong and batonless is right on the Dowdie issue. My Dad bristles at the mere mention of Dowdie's name. I am all for the JAAA system. 1st three past the post once qualified. Must prove fitness. This is partially because of Dowdiegate, partially because our 100m men used to regularly go off and injure themselves and turn up at C a shadow of hemselves.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu May 23, 2013 6:01 am

26mi235 wrote:If there is a 10% chance that he will be fine and a 50% chance that he will win Gold if he is fine (plus another set of probabilities for 2nd and 3rd), then he has a 5% chance of Gold.

Enter fourth best runner. 90% chance of being fine, 1% chance of winning Gold if fine. = 0.9%.

If your the Federation you want Merritt, not a fill in. Now, it depends on the quality of the fill in. In the Dowdie case, her chances were low and her replacement might have been higher even before the conditional probability. So Dowdie: 10% of being fine, 10% if fine => 1%; replacement 90% chance of being fine, 10% chance of winning if fine => 9%.

Since you're a math guy, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and conclude that you're clowning me with all these arbitrary, made-up percentages that aren't in the USATF's or the JAAA's rulebook anyway. :lol:
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby Bolan » Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:32 pm

26mi235 wrote:
Bolan wrote:Finally! Someone with a brain and an IQ high enough to understand that my frustration is not arrogance. One thing that I realize is, the guys with the most post on this board seem to be the most inept and irrational. The dude with 14524 post need to get a life!


Frustration is not arrogance; what you seem to think is an appropriate conclusion from your frustration is what moves you in that direction.

And, I do have a life: a PhD, a teaching then professional career, family, a few PRs, a bit of officiating giving back to the sport.

What is your life like?

26mil235, why were you so harsh on me after posting the comment below earlier?
After reading Bolan's post(s) in the thread on the Monaco race, I find he has a lot to give and I hope to continue to read his posts.
To be honest I was hard on Powell after getting disappointment many times. To answer your question about what I have done, I certainly haven’t done as much as Mandela or mother Teresa but between playing video games and drinking a cold red stripe beer and some spicy jerk chicken I did manage to study at the doctorial level, embark on residency and spend my day designing treatment for cancer patients. I did manage to run a 1 min 57 sec as a 15 year old at eastern champs before I realize I was never good enough so I became a fan. :mrgreen:
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby betterthanb4 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:31 pm

If Asafa can get back in good health and run 9.80's then he'll remain in the mix when it comes to Championship finals and circuit races. He's still a crowd fave, and can pull in some good $$ so I say go for it. However, I don't have medal expectations for him :( and doubt he can get on the podium without his 2008 form reemerging.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby betterthanb4 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:51 pm

"Usain Bolt reaches out to Asafa". 'Tweets Encouragement'

http://go-jamaica.com/news/read_article.php?id=45965


“It is very frustrating to know that I didn’t get to finish in the top three,” Powell also said. “But that is how it goes, I have to just work on it and try and come back.”


And in a message on Twitter, Bolt sought to encourage his colleague.

“Don't give up bro.. Keep the faith..@officialasafa,” Bolt tweeted.

Bolt also sought to console hurdler Hansle Parchment who was unable to compete because of an injury he sustained during warm up for the final.

“Injuries are such a.. Sigh. Can't use the word I want to use on Sunday.. Can't imagine your pain bro.. Keep your head up @HansleParchment,” he said.


Bolt continued: “Believe me I know the pain of injuries..days like these I give even more thanks for my blessings.. God u made all this possible #grateful.”
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby Dixon » Mon Jun 24, 2013 4:56 pm

I like Asafa, too bad he doesn't have Championship ability. But how many have? Tons and tons of sprinters I'd put him above.

He seems to do best when he's not running rounds. Ok, cool.

As long as promotors are paying him to run then what's the problem? Anyone into track knows what he's all about, or should by now.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby dustoff » Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:02 pm

Dixon wrote:I like Asafa, too bad he doesn't have Championship ability. But how many have? Tons and tons of sprinters I'd put him above.

He seems to do best when he's not running rounds. Ok, cool.

As long as promotors are paying him to run then what's the problem? Anyone into track knows what he's all about, or should by now.


Exactly! The man seems happy training and competing. Most of us could only be so lucky to have the talent for that to be an option. If he is happy and his health isn't in jeopardy, I can only wish him the best and hope for him to run as long as Collins has.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby meatball » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:49 pm

i don't like to get into mudslinging on this board, i don't begrudge powell from making aliving on the pro circuitand he has had a good career, however he's not a competitor when it counts.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby dustoff » Mon Jun 24, 2013 8:23 pm

meatball wrote:i don't like to get into mudslinging on this board, i don't begrudge powell from making aliving on the pro circuitand he has had a good career, however he's not a competitor when it counts.


Yeah, we get it. I think it is overstated and lies more in the fact that he isn't really fit to run fast in 4 rounds, but I don't think that should keep the man from continuing to run. He is a credit to the sport and really the first athlete of the new era of men's sprinting. Before him, sub 10 was a big deal and 9.7s seemed other worldly.
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Re: Enough Asafa!!

Postby shivfan » Mon Jun 24, 2013 11:22 pm

"I just need to go back to training. I have a few more races this season and just need to focus on that; I did not make it to Moscow, but I will still be competing." Powell admitted that his injury was in the back of his mind and after "feeling a slight twinge in training on Monday", was very cautious, but he said the injury was never the problem nor his psyche. "I was just unfit today," he insisted, "and I could not execute like I should; it is not mental, just physical." He further stated that he will still go to Europe and compete later on. The athlete, who will be 31 in November, would not comment too much on his long-term plans, however, and when asked about the next Olympics in Brazil in 2016, said: "If I am still alive and God's willing, we will see."


Read more: http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/sport/As ... z2XD6bndDd
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