HS measuring [split]


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HS measuring [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue May 07, 2013 6:54 am

measurer wrote:Many high school and municipal tracks are measured and built not to have a curb - too expensive to maintain.

Make that 'most' and you've got Reason #127 on why not to take HS track stats too seriously. There is very little 'certification' of facilities going on. Long/Triple Jump pits are often a foot too low on sand. High Jump / Pole Vault heights are read off a standard that may be several inches off depending on foundation. Runners run on the inside lane lines all the time (esp. Lane 1!) Shot and disc marks are measured from somewhere NEAR where they land, or on sloping surfaces. The list is endless.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 07, 2013 8:03 am

Marlow wrote:
measurer wrote:Many high school and municipal tracks are measured and built not to have a curb - too expensive to maintain.

Make that 'most' and you've got Reason #127 on why not to take HS track stats too seriously. There is very little 'certification' of facilities going on. Long/Triple Jump pits are often a foot too low on sand. High Jump / Pole Vault heights are read off a standard that may be several inches off depending on foundation. Runners run on the inside lane lines all the time (esp. Lane 1!) Shot and disc marks are measured from somewhere NEAR where they land, or on sloping surfaces. The list is endless.


PV standards are generally 'too high' in measurement because the bar sages more than the width of the bar. Typically, my calibrations has 3-4 cms net difference for 'standard' bars and 4-5 cms difference for the bars from Gill (?) that have flanges fitted on the end that have the flat surface essentially at the middle of the circle of the material.

Of course, these empirical results are predicated on the equipment I have worked with but given that I get the same differentials indoors and out probably means that I am getting a good measure of the differentials. I measure these with the laser device each meet and am almost always within about 1-2 millimeters with the same bar across meets (I use multiple measurements and take the minimum due to the curve and not getting the angle exactly at 90 degrees. I also 'calibrate' the laser each season by using steel tapes and various bars settings.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue May 07, 2013 8:40 am

26mi235 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
measurer wrote:Many high school and municipal tracks are measured and built not to have a curb - too expensive to maintain.

Make that 'most' and you've got Reason #127 on why not to take HS track stats too seriously. There is very little 'certification' of facilities going on. Long/Triple Jump pits are often a foot too low on sand. High Jump / Pole Vault heights are read off a standard that may be several inches off depending on foundation. Runners run on the inside lane lines all the time (esp. Lane 1!) Shot and disc marks are measured from somewhere NEAR where they land, or on sloping surfaces. The list is endless.

PV standards are generally 'too high' in measurement because the bar sages more than the width of the bar. Typically, my calibrations has 3-4 cms net difference for 'standard' bars and 4-5 cms difference for the bars from Gill (?) that have flanges fitted on the end that have the flat surface essentially at the middle of the circle of the material.

My USUAL experience is that what the standards say and what I measure are 2"-3" off. In the HJ it's always 1-2". And yet, I rarely see HJ officials measuring bars. They just go by what the standards say. At the STATE CHAMPIONSHIPS last weekend, using the state-of-the-art facility at UNF, the PV measurement was off 2". Like you, I trust no one. (I won't even get into how far off the zero mark is for standards settings)
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 07, 2013 10:08 am

I am absolutely stunned to hear you say that they use the standards markings to determine the height - it is ok for the relative ranking at a meet, but the results really should not be listed, just the placings. And, in the HJ it is really silly, because it is very easy to calibrate the markings with a measurement (e.g., if the height of 180cms requires that the standards be set at 182.7 cms then adjust the standards by always increasing them 2.7 cms above the nominal marking).

By the way, if the standards gave the nominal height equal to the actual height I would spend a fair bit of time trying to find out why, since the bar never sages upwards.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby gh » Tue May 07, 2013 10:33 am

It's many years ago, but I can' remember any HS meet I ever jumped in where the standards weren't used to determine the height.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue May 07, 2013 11:10 am

gh wrote:It's many years ago, but I can' remember any HS meet I ever jumped in where the standards weren't used to determine the height.

That was also my experience in HS, 65 years ago. It was real shock in college when they measured the bar and my PB instantly dropped a couple of inches. :o
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby kuha » Tue May 07, 2013 11:12 am

lonewolf wrote:
gh wrote:It's many years ago, but I can' remember any HS meet I ever jumped in where the standards weren't used to determine the height.

That was also my experience in HS, 65 years ago. It was real shock in college when they measured the bar and my PB instantly dropped a couple of inches. :o


I had the horrible experience of apparently breaking our school record and then asking for the bar to be measured, just to be sure. The result was officially losing a full inch...and the record.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue May 07, 2013 11:15 am

This is interesting. My nieces are now collegiate pole vaulters. And that sort of explains why they didn't get much better from their high school days. I never thought much about it at the time, but I can't recall they actually ever measured the bar in the center in their high school meets.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue May 07, 2013 11:17 am

kuha wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
gh wrote:It's many years ago, but I can' remember any HS meet I ever jumped in where the standards weren't used to determine the height.

That was also my experience in HS, 65 years ago. It was real shock in college when they measured the bar and my PB instantly dropped a couple of inches. :o


I had the horrible experience of apparently breaking our school record and then asking for the bar to be measured, just to be sure. The result was officially losing a full inch...and the record.


Very sad. Did you ever recover from the shock? The Mike Tully of your school.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby kuha » Tue May 07, 2013 1:23 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
kuha wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
gh wrote:It's many years ago, but I can' remember any HS meet I ever jumped in where the standards weren't used to determine the height.

That was also my experience in HS, 65 years ago. It was real shock in college when they measured the bar and my PB instantly dropped a couple of inches. :o


I had the horrible experience of apparently breaking our school record and then asking for the bar to be measured, just to be sure. The result was officially losing a full inch...and the record.


Very sad. Did you ever recover from the shock? The Mike Tully of your school.


I'm a sad, pathetic wreck of a human.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue May 07, 2013 1:35 pm

kuha wrote:

I'm a sad, pathetic wreck of a human.


Yes, very sad. I suppose you came here in the mistaken plea for sympathy. Perhaps the folks in Historical would be more deposed to your plight. I hear dj is a kind old soul who listens to sob stories like this.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby kuha » Tue May 07, 2013 2:01 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
kuha wrote:

I'm a sad, pathetic wreck of a human.


Yes, very sad. I suppose you came here in the mistaken plea for sympathy. Perhaps the folks in Historical would be more deposed to your plight. I hear dj is a kind old soul who listens to sob stories like this.


Tough love. Yes, I will strive to pull my life together and to improve from hopeless to merely abject. DJ is Santa Claus compared to you people here.
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Re: San Diego track short? [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue May 07, 2013 2:07 pm

kuha wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
kuha wrote:

I'm a sad, pathetic wreck of a human.


Yes, very sad. I suppose you came here in the mistaken plea for sympathy. Perhaps the folks in Historical would be more deposed to your plight. I hear dj is a kind old soul who listens to sob stories like this.


Tough love. Yes, I will strive to pull my life together and to improve from hopeless to merely abject. DJ is Santa Claus compared to you people here.


Yes, Current Events is not for the weak. But then you should see the folks in Things Not Track.
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