Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans


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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby user4 » Thu May 09, 2013 7:23 am

lonewolf wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:[ track coaches are at the whims of football coaches letting their best sprinters out of spring football to run track. It is lot different than it use to be.


Boy is it! My Okla A&M track coach, Ralph Higgins, favorite tale was about taking the OAMC backfield, Including All American Bob Fenimore, to West Point, circa 1944-45, and defeating the Army backfield, including Blanchard and Davis, in the 440 relay..
And, Fenimore won the 100 y over the field.


Seriously Fenimore beat Glenn Davis at 100yd ? ... Im going to guess that Davis was ahead by 2 full yards at the 60yd mark.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby Conor Dary » Thu May 09, 2013 7:52 am

kamikaze7 wrote:

The point is that the USA has such huge advantages over Jamaica that its bogus to point at basketball and football as the reason the USA is loosing to Jamaica.


It is all rather comical reading this ongoing nonsense about a rivalry very few, outside of Jamaica, care about. It is not surprising Greene's comments come from a Jamaica paper. For any US news organization it would have brought a big yawn. Bolt is a fine athlete. But I don't, and I also think 99% per cent of Americans who even know who he is, would care if he is German, Swede, American or whatever.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby Conor Dary » Thu May 09, 2013 8:23 am

gh wrote:NFL goes beyond poaching sprint talent; it's also about (and probably moreso, considering somatotypes) long jumpers and hurdlers. Plus putters and discus throwers.


When Michael Jordan did that dunk taking off from the free throw line years ago, my first thoughts were: what a long jumper he might have been.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby lonewolf » Thu May 09, 2013 8:32 am

user4 wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:[ track coaches are at the whims of football coaches letting their best sprinters out of spring football to run track. It is lot different than it use to be.


Boy is it! My Okla A&M track coach, Ralph Higgins, favorite tale was about taking the OAMC backfield, Including All American Bob Fenimore, to West Point, circa 1944-45, and defeating the Army backfield, including Blanchard and Davis, in the 440 relay..
And, Fenimore won the 100 y over the field.


Seriously Fenimore beat Glenn Davis at 100yd ? ... Im going to guess that Davis was ahead by 2 full yards at the 60yd mark.

Thats what the man said... I doubt they were taking splits. I don't know if it was filmed or where to obtain results...it was just a favorite anecdote, only about four years in the past, at the time.. I have no reason to doubt it.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby lionelp1 » Thu May 09, 2013 8:44 am

And
Last edited by lionelp1 on Thu May 09, 2013 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby lionelp1 » Thu May 09, 2013 8:45 am

kamikaze wrote:And even with the number of scholarships reduced, elite sprinters still have plenty of opportunities for track.

The point is that the USA has such huge advantages over Jamaica that its bogus to point at basketball and football as the reason the USA is loosing to Jamaica. If you start going down the road of such excuses, I am certain that anyone can mention 10 aspects where the US has huge advantages over Jamaica. We haven't even mentioned the fact that good Jamaican coaches often leave Jamaica for better offers at American colleges. Or the fact that because it has such a high emigration rate. Jamaica looses many of its best athletes at a young age or even before think Sanya, Linford, Inger, Donovan Bailey, Cydonie, Collin Jackson, Kelly Holmes, Derick Atkins, Jessica Ennis..............We havent even mentioned that poverty is far more more prevalent in Jamaica and is a hindrance to athletic development............I could go on forever regarding advantages the US has over virtually every other country talk less of Jamaica.

One can say that the US is loosing elite athletes to football. But using it as the reason Jamaica is better does not wash because the US still has huge advantages. And how many elite athletes have actually been lost to football. Jacoby Ford, Jeffery Demps and who else ? You can make the case that the issue is being overblown. With few exceptions, the fastest football players will struggle to beat Carmelita Jeter talk less of competing in division 1 track.



Thank goodness for some sense, Kamikaze.

Its so obvious that its blinkered to pretend that having a 320 million population is not a significant advantage over tiny countries, irrespective of NFL participation . Also it is so irrelevant to our sport which consists of a darn sight more than the constant exagerated attention paid to two sprints. Currently the Jamaicans are doing very well in the 100/200m sprints but soon the pendulum will swing back, imo, inevitably to the USA. Last summer the USA won 29 medals, I recall , rather a lot more than little Jamaica, despite all those losses to American football. :)
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby eldanielfire » Thu May 09, 2013 8:52 am

kamikaze7 wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
kamikaze7 wrote:.


300 million? Yes, if you count all of the Swedish, Indian, Pakistani, Mexican, etc. :roll:

I think we have gone down this silly road before.


Just try and engage your brain just a little bit more. Higher population creates all kinds of opportunities for scholarships, sponsorships, TV revenue not to mention more coaches, qualified doctors physios etc as I mentioned above. To put it plainly, having a huge population offers USA a significant advantage. The reason there are over 100 division one schools and several division two schools is precisely because the USA has such as huge population that it needs so many universities. This in turn provides scholarship opportunities for athletes. Jamaica with a population of 2m has far fewer opportunities. The possibility of scholarships keeps athletes motivated and thus fewer are lost to lack of motivation compared to Jamaica.

And even with the number of scholarships reduced, elite sprinters still have plenty of opportunities for track.

The point is that the USA has such huge advantages over Jamaica that its bogus to point at basketball and football as the reason the USA is loosing to Jamaica. If you start going down the road of such excuses, I am certain that anyone can mention 10 aspects where the US has huge advantages over Jamaica. We haven't even mentioned the fact that good Jamaican coaches often leave Jamaica for better offers at American colleges. Or the fact that because it has such a high emigration rate. Jamaica looses many of its best athletes at a young age or even before think Sanya, Linford, Inger, Donovan Bailey, Cydonie, Collin Jackson, Kelly Holmes, Derick Atkins, Jessica Ennis..............We havent even mentioned that poverty is far more more prevalent in Jamaica and is a hindrance to athletic development............I could go on forever regarding advantages the US has over virtually every other country talk less of Jamaica.


Errrr, neither Jessica Ennis nor Kelly Holmes, who are both born in England to English mothers, ever set foot in Jamaica until they became adults. Kelly Holmes never even knew who her father was growing up.

Also with the success of Jamaican athletes it appears the countries best talent is actually staying and believing more success will come in Jamaica. Sanya Richards-Ross is the last one I can think of.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby batonless relay » Thu May 09, 2013 9:55 am

Marlow wrote:I'll go on record that they are at least half a dozen 8500+ decathletes in the NFL. Junior Seau was the archetype: big, fast, strong, coordinated, work addict, coachable.

Give me a 6'6, 275 hyper-athletic NFL Combine Phenom. I'll slim him down a little to get a 5:00 1500 and we're off to the races!

There are probably a half a dozen 8500+ decathletes within ... the IAAF, but they're sprinters and hurdlers and jumpers who can't be bothered with learning all those events. Also, if you're plan is to "slim down" 6'6", 275 guys then you have it all wrong. Had you said the same of the 235 guy guy then you would understand.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby 26mi235 » Thu May 09, 2013 10:08 am

Conor, that 99% figure is way too high; more easily phrased, more than 1% of the US public knows who Usain Bolt is. I would not be surprised if half the kids in my son's elementary school know who he is.

As another example, my wife has absolutely no interest in sports -- if they keep score in some manner it is not art (e.g., dance) and she has no interest. She knows who Bolt is and has for a long time. Obviously, because of me she is much more likely to know who he is, but I am trying to think of another track athlete she might name, or any athlete at all (aside from gymnasts). She would probably recognize the name Aaron Rogers, but I am not certain she would name him herself. She does know some gymnasts, but my daughter competes so that is a bit different.

There are two sports numbers she will likely know: 4:00 and 26 or 26+ and the latter is biased, as you might guess (10 is also a gymnastics association, but 10 seconds, no).
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby Conor Dary » Thu May 09, 2013 10:31 am

26mi235 wrote:Conor, that 99% figure is way too high; more easily phrased, more than 1% of the US public knows who Usain Bolt is. I would not be surprised if half the kids in my son's elementary school know who he is.

As another example, my wife has absolutely no interest in sports -- if they keep score in some manner it is not art (e.g., dance) and she has no interest. She knows who Bolt is and has for a long time. Obviously, because of me she is much more likely to know who he is, but I am trying to think of another track athlete she might name, or any athlete at all (aside from gymnasts). She would probably recognize the name Aaron Rogers, but I am not certain she would name him herself. She does know some gymnasts, but my daughter competes so that is a bit different.

There are two sports numbers she will likely know: 4:00 and 26 or 26+ and the latter is biased, as you might guess (10 is also a gymnastics association, but 10 seconds, no).


Oops, I can see I phrased it wrong. Yes, I agree most Americans know who he is. My point was the 99% of those who know who he is don't care about his nationality.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby ExCoastRanger » Thu May 09, 2013 10:43 am

26mi235 wrote:Conor, that 99% figure is way too high; more easily phrased, more than 1% of the US public knows who Usain Bolt is. I would not be surprised if half the kids in my son's elementary school know who he is....


I suspect plenty of Americans recognize his name, a few less his face, and hardly any who are not T&F fans will know in which events he competes or any of his marks.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby kamikaze7 » Sat May 11, 2013 4:24 pm

eldanielfire wrote:


Errrr, neither Jessica Ennis nor Kelly Holmes, who are both born in England to English mothers, ever set foot in Jamaica until they became adults. Kelly Holmes never even knew who her father was growing up.

Also with the success of Jamaican athletes it appears the countries best talent is actually staying and believing more success will come in Jamaica. Sanya Richards-Ross is the last one I can think of.


Go back and re-read my post. I said Jamaica looses so many people to migration at a young age and even before that.

Emigration is indeed a huge impediment to success even when it is not the actual athletes who are leaving. When Jamaicans move overseas and have children who become athletes, Jamaica has in effect lost an athlete.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby kamikaze7 » Sat May 11, 2013 4:26 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
kamikaze7 wrote:

The point is that the USA has such huge advantages over Jamaica that its bogus to point at basketball and football as the reason the USA is loosing to Jamaica.


It is all rather comical reading this ongoing nonsense about a rivalry very few, outside of Jamaica, care about. It is not surprising Greene's comments come from a Jamaica paper. For any US news organization it would have brought a big yawn. Bolt is a fine athlete. But I don't, and I also think 99% per cent of Americans who even know who he is, would care if he is German, Swede, American or whatever.


Nothing you've written here has anything to do with the debate at hand. Way to change the subject !
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby Conor Dary » Sat May 11, 2013 4:30 pm

kamikaze7 wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
kamikaze7 wrote:

The point is that the USA has such huge advantages over Jamaica that its bogus to point at basketball and football as the reason the USA is loosing to Jamaica.


It is all rather comical reading this ongoing nonsense about a rivalry very few, outside of Jamaica, care about. It is not surprising Greene's comments come from a Jamaica paper. For any US news organization it would have brought a big yawn. Bolt is a fine athlete. But I don't, and I also think 99% per cent of Americans who even know who he is, would care if he is German, Swede, American or whatever.


Nothing you've written here has anything to do with the debate at hand. Way to change the subject !


Actually it is what this silly thread is all about.
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Re: Greene - American male sprinters way behind Jamaicans

Postby eldanielfire » Sun May 12, 2013 3:03 am

kamikaze7 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:


Errrr, neither Jessica Ennis nor Kelly Holmes, who are both born in England to English mothers, ever set foot in Jamaica until they became adults. Kelly Holmes never even knew who her father was growing up.

Also with the success of Jamaican athletes it appears the countries best talent is actually staying and believing more success will come in Jamaica. Sanya Richards-Ross is the last one I can think of.


Go back and re-read my post. I said Jamaica looses so many people to migration at a young age and even before that.

Emigration is indeed a huge impediment to success even when it is not the actual athletes who are leaving. When Jamaicans move overseas and have children who become athletes, Jamaica has in effect lost an athlete.


The very existence of those two athletes not representing Jamaica can't be attributed to Jamaican migration, they are half English so they are Irrelevant example to use. Nothing can be presumed to be lost to Jamaica and neither has an athletic parent and neither has a sport skill set can be traced to Jamaicans success or counted as a loss of talent. Unless I'm missing how Jamaica is credited and praised for middle distance runners and multi-eventers which are funny enough two events in which Britain has a proud history of.

Otherwise most countries lose people to migration which in economic terms benefits Jamaica as the wealth sometimes sent back directly and indirectly allows for a higher quality of life, infrastructure etc.
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