the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]


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the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby highjumpfan » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:27 am

Big article in,the Washington post about the hypocrasy of how Louisville and Adidas are profiting from Kevin ware's injury while he gets nothing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/co ... story.html
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Re: Auburn Bribed Football Players

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:01 pm

batonless relay wrote:These athletes should be getting paid
This is a never ending argument. These athletes do get paid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realize what the hell the cost of education at these Universities are these days? There may be a few elites who aren't quite up to what many view as their market value but the vast majority are paid pretty nicely. Many of those "underpaid" stars somehow manage as they often get awarded huge contracts based upon performances against far inferior competition.
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Re: Auburn Bribed Football Players

Postby Helen S » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:31 pm

Sure, pay them in DI, it's a job. But then they pay their own meals, tuition, books, insurance, etc.

Oh, excuse me, that is Division III athletics.
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Re: Auburn Bribed Football Players

Postby batonless relay » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:39 pm

Already get paid? Pay their own insurance? You guys really hate scholarship athletes.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-575 ... p-at-risk/
The NCAA does require college athletes to have insurance before competing, but that hasn't kept athletes from getting stuck with the bill for injuries sustained in their sport. And as Salon's David Sirota noted, the NCAA's Catastrophic Injury Insurance Program reportedly comes with a $90,000 deductable, and the majority of athletes don't qualify for it.
Asked what insurance was in place to cover Ware's injury and whether the university assumes responsibility for his claims, a Louisville spokesman said in an email, "Yes, insurance will cover Ware's medical bills." But if the injury requires more medical attention once the spotlight fades, the university is not required to keep paying.

"Going forward, we don't know what's going to happen in terms of medical expenses," said Ramogi Huma, president of the National College Players Association, which is seeking reform. "If Kevin has lifelong medical bills associated with his injury, he could be squarely responsible for this."

Huma went on to lament the fact that "his most valuable years of his life might have just ended without any compensation whatsoever, and possibly with medical bills."

"These are things that are not guaranteed to players that are injured, and no matter how hard it might be for people to understand, that's the truth," he said. "And that should change."


Here's another http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/16/sport ... d=all&_r=0
Last edited by batonless relay on Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Auburn Bribed Football Players

Postby Daisy » Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:41 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
batonless relay wrote:These athletes should be getting paid
This is a never ending argument. These athletes do get paid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you realize what the hell the cost of education at these Universities are these days?

Here's the problem. They spend so much time reviewing film, training and time on the road, they don't actually get this education.

Their education semesters should not coincide with the competition semester. And the university should pay them when they are competing for the university, IMO.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby booond » Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:58 pm

I'd call big time college athletics a cesspool but I'd be insulting cesspools.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby Daisy » Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:23 pm

But who's stinking the place up?
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby gh » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:05 pm

It's the medical-expenses part of the equation that totally blows my mind.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby lonewolf » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:22 am

Hundreds (thousands?) of collegiate athletes are injured every year. Few are this serious but I do not recall a previous discussion about medical costs. It never occured to me that schools do not pay medical expenses for athletes injured during competition. :shock:
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby kevinsdad » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:29 am

The NCAA receives 770 million dollars/yr for broadcast rights to the NCAA basketball tournament. http://bleacherreport.com/articles/3855 ... are-coming Schools and conferences receive millions more annually for regular season tv contracts. Schools and coaches receive millions in shoe and equipment contracts. Revenue also comes in from ticket sales, souvenir and clothing licenses, etc. It's clear, in other words, that Div. 1 NCAA basketball is a big, big entertainment business. Yet the players, without whom that business wouldn't exist , get nothing except a free "education," at least while their coaches still find them useful. If they receive anything of benefit beyond a free year-to-year "education," no matter how trivial, they can expect harsh punishment from the NCAA. In contrast, there is no NCAA limit on compensation for coaches, which in some cases reaches or exceeds 5 million/yr. http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nc ... i/2048859/ Sounds like exploitation to me.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby 18.99s » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:05 am

Create a separate division where the athletes can be explicitly paid, but subject to a salary cap just like what other pro sports do. Schools that want to pay and can prove they have the resources to pay (you don't want the athletes getting stiffed) would join that for-pay division in the sports they choose and can afford, while schools that can't or don't want to pay would stay in D1 to D3.

Only a fraction of sports in a fraction of schools would find it financially feasible to be in this professional division, so they would be allowed to keep other sports in D1 to D3 while having their one or two big-money sports in the pro division.

In addition to salaries, the schools in the pro division can provide each athlete with up to 5 years of tuition and room and board which doesn't count against the salary cap. That 5 years of studying may be utilized during their playing contract or after, or a mix of both. So if an athlete wants to play for 4 years without studying at all, and then start the degree when they're done playing and didn't make the NBA or MLB or NFL, they can do that.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby gh » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:23 am

18.99s wrote:Create a separate division where the athletes can be explicitly paid, but subject to a salary cap just like what other pro sports do. Schools that want to pay and can prove they have the resources to pay ....


I'm thinking that if the NCAA proper were sharing the revenues up and down the line, ALL schools would have the resources to pay.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby Jnathletics » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:37 am

They may not cover insurance cost, but rehabilitaion for him will be free. Every University has a training department, which may not be suited to handle the extreme cases, but does provide the athletes with free rehabilitaion.

So there a lot of perks the athletes don't really understand that get covered by the Universities. Any athlete who has been injuried in college and then injuried after college can see the real value of the University's training department, in more ways then just monitary. Everyday Physical therapy to name one, who's insurance covers that?
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:40 am

gh wrote:
18.99s wrote:Create a separate division where the athletes can be explicitly paid, but subject to a salary cap just like what other pro sports do. Schools that want to pay and can prove they have the resources to pay ....


I'm thinking that if the NCAA proper were sharing the revenues up and down the line, ALL schools would have the resources to pay.


Fat chance of that happening. Especially with the mega-conferences forming.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby DrJay » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:59 am

On one hand, I kind of get the "exploiting the athletes" argument. Kinda. Slightly. Maybe. On the other hand, I would have LOVED to have the natural ability (combined, obviously, with a buttload of hard training) to have been good enough to have been "exploited" by the Athletics Dept in Chapel Hill. Free school? Free room? Free board at the training table? Attention? Chicks? (depending on the sport!) Road trips? A close-knit group of friends like a team is? Connections for later in life? Exploit away!! Bug my phone. Drug test me. Strip search me once a month. One would think these guys and gals are indentured servants, shackled to their bed frames every night. I surley hope for the best for Kevin Ware, and I grew up a U of L fan, but there's nothing wrong with the possibility that he--or any other injured athlete--might have to--gasp!--get a real job not playing a sport. BTW, his stats don't suggest an NBA star in the making:

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player ... kevin-ware
Last edited by DrJay on Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby doug5321 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:22 am

paying college athletes = no more non revenue producing sports (including track)

the colleges wont give money to athletes not making the school money = no more womens sports except basketball at a few schools connecticutt, tennessee and 3-4 others, no more mens sports except basketball and football at about 30 schools, wrestling at about 4 schools oklahoma state, iowa, penn state, minnesota, i dont know maybe a few schools in ice hockey, but basically college sports would be gone.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby DrJay » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:54 am

Coaches are overpaid, IMHO. I'd pay them less, not pay the players more.

NCAA men's b-ball coaaching salaries. Click on the headers to list by $, school, conference, etc.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/c ... 53827374/1
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby DrJay » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:01 pm

I guess we're exploiting our receptionists and billing staff, since we make a lot of money and pay them a tenth of what the physicians make.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby batonless relay » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:25 pm

There's a difference between making more than your "help" and the slavery aspects of the current college football system. You see, your receptionists/billing staff can always decide to ply their low(er)-paying skills (relative to their doctor overlords) across the street and there is NOTHING you can do about it. Scholarship athletes, on the otherhand, can't just decide that the Coach/Boss/Enslaver sucks and he's going to enroll at his second choice. Doesn't work that way. Athlete has no leverage and is forbidden from working. Them's the rules. So, when you get a case like a Jimbo Fisher basically telling Marvin Bracy, one of the top sprinters in the USA, that if he doesn't get his ass to spring camp that it may hurt his playing time this fall, Bracy just can't say "screw you, Jimbo" and enroll at UF, UM or any other school that will allow him to run track and not be harrassed. Cheerleaders and assistants also get their school paid for with Athletic Department dollars and when they want to quit or transfer...no repercussions. Yeah, those athletes have it so good because they can go on road trips and get chicks. :roll:
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby gh » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:35 pm

you also couldn't sell t-shirts of your employees and deny them any part of the proceeds.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby batonless relay » Fri Apr 05, 2013 12:41 pm

http://minnesota.publicradio.org/displa ... rs-lawsuit

Four years ago, O'Bannon filed a lawsuit against the NCAA and the video game maker EA Sports seeking compensation after recognizing an avatar in the company's March Madness game that he says was created in his image. Since then, the lawsuit has blossomed into one of the biggest legal threats the NCAA has ever faced over the issue of paying student athletes who attract billions of dollars in revenue annually, and the latest court filing from the NCAA weeks ago highlights how much is at stake.

O'Bannon and every other athlete who plays collegiate sports at a high level sign documents agreeing to play without compensation and giving the NCAA and its member schools exclusive commercial control of their images and likeness.

He and other former student athletes who filed the lawsuit are seeking to require the NCAA to share in the skyrocketing revenues earned from television deals, video games, marketing schemes and other money-generating ventures using their images and likenesses.

If they succeed, it would force the NCAA to essentially pay student athletes for the first time in its 107-year history. The lawsuit proposes that former players receive direct payments while current athletes could tap a trust fund once their playing days are done.

Specifically, the lawsuit alleges the NCAA and its member schools have unfairly and illegally fixed the value of every player's commercial rights at zero. The lawsuit claims the NCAA and colleges do this by requiring every student athlete to sign forms agreeing to pay without compensation and giving all commercial rights to the NCAA.


And, I can't wait for someone to bring a credible suit to bring the IOC to their knees for the same practice of not paying athletes. Free Labor, recognized at UN as observer status, 5-star hotels and they want to be treated like kings/queens?
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby mal » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:36 pm

Paying athletes is a place no sensible person should ever want to go.

As soon as you pay them - and try to hold them accountable for grades - all sorts of irregularities will abide. Much more than today.

Worse still. When you pay them, and get the IRS involved, you'll have a whole new can of worms around payment and non payment of taxes. It'll be jail time instead of loss of eligibility.

Keep it as it is, just start applying the regulations as they should be. No English For Plants 101. If the kid isn't cut out for school, let him go.

Stop treating the education system as a farm system for professional entertainment. MAke them go to class. Stop hiring guys like the idiot at Rutgers.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby Tuariki » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:37 pm

As an always grateful benefactor of the USA sports scholarship system I do not think that athletes should be paid. if athletes do not agree with what they have been offered they do not have to accept a scholarship. No one is forcing them to compete.

On the medical side I am in agreement that this aspect needs to be looked at so that the recuperation from injuries incurred as part of their sport participation are paid for. That is certainly fair and appropriate for those programs that earn sufficient revenue (football and basketball) to pay for the cost. However, on the other side what level of costs are appropriate for a non-revenue sport to have to pay for? If the cost is too high universities will simply shut those sports down.

And also, personally, I think many coaches are grossly overpaid, especially Div I football and basketball. But some track coaches are also in that overpaid bracket. Bev Kearney for example. When a sport brings in little or no revenue I fail to understand how universities can justify what she was paid - great coach or not.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:41 pm

Tuariki wrote:As an always grateful benefactor of the USA sports scholarship system I do not think that athletes should be paid. if athletes do not agree with what they have been offered they do not have to accept a scholarship. No one is forcing them to compete.


Well, since the NFL has made the NCAA its farm team, footballers really have no choice.

Basketball however is a different fish. They should just get rid of the 1 year rule.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby DrJay » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:18 pm

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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby gh » Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:40 pm

Tuariki wrote:As an always grateful benefactor of the USA sports scholarship system I do not think that athletes should be paid. if athletes do not agree with what they have been offered they do not have to accept a scholarship. No one is forcing them to compete......


So a hypothetical that actually has a fairly decent footing: if Washington State had started selling t-shirts with a motif of "check out the World Record holder in the flip LJ" that had your picture on it, and they were making thousands (ok, hyperbole!) and they told you that you wouldn't get squat, you'd have been fine with that?

Or if you had landed on your head (why it ended up banned) and the school/NCAA paid for the immediate medical but then left you a cripple for life and said "tough shit" you wouldn't mind? (of course, this last is not exactly a fair question becase you could head back to N-Zed and the government would cover the medical, but if you were an American.......)
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby Daisy » Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:25 pm

mal wrote:As soon as you pay them - and try to hold them accountable for grades - all sorts of irregularities will abide. Much more than today.

So why not pay footballers to on the field with no classes in the fall. In the spring they have to be full time students, and hold them accountable for grades then?

If they don't get drafted let them have four more semesters to finish their education. And if they do get drafted, let them come back and finish their degree when they retire. The concept of a 'student athlete', at least in football, is a farce.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby Daisy » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:22 pm

You don’t have to be at the Final Four to realize that the N.C.A.A. has big problems. But in Atlanta, the sense of crisis is palpable. The chatter you hear is that morale among N.C.A.A. employees is awful. The N.C.A.A. is facing more — and more serious — legal threats than ever before. Its missteps in the University of Miami investigation — in which it engaged a bankruptcy lawyer to depose witnesses its investigators couldn’t reach — stunned many people. The once heretical thought that college athletes ought to be paid for their labors — and that the N.C.A.A.’s amateurism rules are meant to ensure a free labor force — has gained real currency.

www.nytimes.com/2013/04/06/opinion/noce ... inked.html
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby Tuariki » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:19 am

gh wrote:
Tuariki wrote:As an always grateful benefactor of the USA sports scholarship system I do not think that athletes should be paid. if athletes do not agree with what they have been offered they do not have to accept a scholarship. No one is forcing them to compete......


So a hypothetical that actually has a fairly decent footing: if Washington State had started selling t-shirts with a motif of "check out the World Record holder in the flip LJ" that had your picture on it, and they were making thousands (ok, hyperbole!) and they told you that you wouldn't get squat, you'd have been fine with that?

Or if you had landed on your head (why it ended up banned) and the school/NCAA paid for the immediate medical but then left you a cripple for life and said "tough shit" you wouldn't mind? (of course, this last is not exactly a fair question becase you could head back to N-Zed and the government would cover the medical, but if you were an American.......)


Bloody hell! Using logic against emotion means you're not playing fair.

I certainly agree that a school or company should have zero right to use the name and/or image of a player once they have graduated unless they have a contract with that player.

I also believe that the NCAA should just make it against the rules to use the names and images of individual players in any direct advertising. I would be OK with an image of the whole team. If you allow individual NCAA players to become professionals by being allowed to earn advertising revenues then that will open a real slippery slope which will, IMO, destroy college sports. In the very short term the Johnny Manziels of 2013 will be laughing all the way to the bank. However, for the Johnny Manziels of 2020 the bank will have been long gone; as will NCAA sports.

Medical liability would appear to be a bit problematic as only the football and basketball programs can probably afford to pay the needed insurance premiums to provide the needed cover to protect players from financial ruin in the case of a serious injury.

However, in the case of track and field, which is a financial non-event in terms of profitability for any University, what should of financial liability exposure should the university have. GH may remember Grant Birkinshaw, my NZ TJ mate who was at the UW at the same time I was at WSU. Grant had a terrible injury when he totally ruptured his quadriceps tendon when triple jumping in the UW fieldhouse in 1972. While his medical bills were paid for by the University I do not think the university should have any responsibility to pay for health care ad infinitum.

Such a policy would, IMO, see all sports disappear, including football and basketball, (except the power houses who get all the TV revenues).
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby 18.99s » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:31 am

mal wrote:As soon as you pay them - and try to hold them accountable for grades - all sorts of irregularities will abide. Much more than today.


If they're paid, they shouldn't be held accountable for grades. Paying them salaries would make them part of a professional developmental league, so they should be treated like pro athletes -- give them a salary, with no obligation to attend classes. They can get free tuition and on-campus housing as a fringe benefit, but not as an obligation or expectation.

Just make sure the paying of salaries is restricted to a separate division, so schools in Division 1 that can't or won't spend that money don't have to compete against them. And that separation would give the athletes in Division 1 no right to complain about not getting paid. If they want to get paid, they can join the pro development division, and if the pro development division won't take them, they're not good enough to get paid anyway.
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Re: the Kevin Ware case: should collegians be paid? [split]

Postby ExCoastRanger » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:55 am

18.99s wrote:If they're paid, they shouldn't be held accountable for grades. Paying them salaries would make them part of a professional developmental league, so they should be treated like pro athletes -- give them a salary, with no obligation to attend classes. They can get free tuition and on-campus housing as a fringe benefit, but not as an obligation or expectation.....


If it's going to go like that, then it should be on the NBA and NFL to set up their own professional development leagues and pay the athletes out of their own very deep pockets.
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