Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]


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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake

Postby Gleason » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:15 pm

donley2 wrote:Absolutely thrilled to be wrong. Fantastic run by Jen Simpson. 403. Unbelievable. High school record for Cain.

1 Jenny Simpson New Balance 4:03.35
2 Sheila Reid Nike 4:07.92
3 Kate Grace United States 4:08.24
4 Shannon Rowbury Nike 4:09.05
5 Gabriele Anderson United States 4:10.32
6 Mary Cain United States 4:10.77
7 Sarah Bowman New Balance 4:11.31
8 Emma Coburn Colorado 4:11.36
9 Morgan Uceny adidas 4:17.71
10 Ashley Miller Asics 4:19.86
11 Heather Kamph Asics 4:20.80
-- Renee Tomlin United States DNF

What happened to Morgan Uceny? Did she fall again?
Last edited by Gleason on Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Tuariki » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:42 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Aaronk after all the hype and speculation leading up to the race and not a peep since? Come on and give us your take on it!

Same here. I hope Aaronk is ok as it concerns me he has made no comment. He made 32 postings on 25, 26 April. Given his fascination with Mary Cain it doesn't seem like him not to have commented within seconds of the race finishing.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:27 pm

For those interested the reason for his....vacation...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50431
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:20 pm

Conor Dary wrote:For those interested the reason for his....vacation...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=50431


Well, at least now we won't have that exclamation mark shortage of which scholars have recently warned.

[I do like Aaron's enthusiasm, though. Revved down a notch--as was suggested--it should all balance out.]
.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Brian » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:26 pm

Most of the people I have spoken with about Cain have tapped into Salazar's attitude: she is a great talent and if she is developed properly, there are a lot of good things ahead. And as fans of the sport, there is plenty of time to simply enjoy what happens without inadvertently putting pressure on her or any of her collaborators by engaging in wild speculation.

[Robin Williams preacher voice]

Can I hear an "Amen", brothers--?!!?

.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Gleason » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:53 pm

Brian wrote:Most of the people I have spoken with about Cain have tapped into Salazar's attitude: she is a great talent and if she is developed properly, there are a lot of good things ahead. And as fans of the sport, there is plenty of time to simply enjoy what happens without inadvertently putting pressure on her or any of her collaborators by engaging in wild speculation.
[Robin Williams preacher voice]
Can I hear an "Amen", brothers--?!!?
.

I agree. If she fails to make the team for the Senior World Championships - as I expect - she can qualify for the Youth World Championships at St. Louis two days later. She could make the team at either 1500 or 800, but if she wants to double only 3000 and 2000St. is a reasonable double at the US and World Championships.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:28 pm

I hope she forgoes the USATF meet and focuses on winning at World Youths.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:22 pm

Gleason wrote: If she fails to make the team for the Senior World Championships - as I expect - she can qualify for the Youth World Championships at St. Louis two days later. She could make the team at either 1500 or 800, but if she wants to double only 3000 and 2000St. is a reasonable double at the US and World Championships.


I think that you can only run one race longer than 400m at Youth Worlds, I think.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Gleason » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:31 pm

Thanks for the info. According to T&FN winning times at the 2011 World Youth at 800, 1500 and 3000 were faster than Cain's PRs, so one race there makes sense.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:18 pm

Gleason wrote:
donley2 wrote:Absolutely thrilled to be wrong. Fantastic run by Jen Simpson. 403. Unbelievable. High school record for Cain.

1 Jenny Simpson New Balance 4:03.35
2 Sheila Reid Nike 4:07.92
3 Kate Grace United States 4:08.24
4 Shannon Rowbury Nike 4:09.05
5 Gabriele Anderson United States 4:10.32
6 Mary Cain United States 4:10.77
7 Sarah Bowman New Balance 4:11.31
8 Emma Coburn Colorado 4:11.36
9 Morgan Uceny adidas 4:17.71
10 Ashley Miller Asics 4:19.86
11 Heather Kamph Asics 4:20.80
-- Renee Tomlin United States DNF

What happened to Morgan Uceny? Did she fall again?


Pretty much straight to the rear and stayed there.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:45 am

Gleason wrote:Thanks for the info. According to T&FN winning times at the 2011 World Youth at 800, 1500 and 3000 were faster than Cain's PRs, so one race there makes sense.


That might be the one meet when competing with other youth she may be challenged. But in the U.S. there is very little of that unless she wants to mix it up with the elite. So I guess it comes down to what motivates her.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake

Postby Gleason » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:58 am

Gleason wrote:
donley2 wrote:What happened to Morgan Uceny? Did she fall again?

Pretty much straight to the rear and stayed there.

Thanks for the update.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby booond » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:35 pm

Cain will have to run against Senior Women but expectations must be tempered as she's 16. She will not break the AR this year, if ever. She is not likely to make the WC team this year, if ever.

Best thing for her is to gain experience running multiple heats in the US Champs then run against the best in the world her age. Building her up without burning her out is key to her development. Since Salazar has done this with Rupp it is possible he'll be good for Cain, too. Running 4:10 is great but the winner ran 4:03. Perspective.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby TxHottrack » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:30 am

I don't see this young girl heading to college coming her senior year. Especially, if she contines to compete this way next season. Well, let me correct myself. I can see her in college but not competing for her college team.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:35 pm

booond wrote:Cain will have to run against Senior Women but expectations must be tempered as she's 16. She will not break the AR this year, if ever. She is not likely to make the WC team this year, if ever.



I hope a national sweep of razor blades was done before you typed this. :lol:
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:48 pm

Does Cain still compete in high school meets? I could easily see her single-handedly almost winning a team championship by herself if she ran just fast enough to win multiple events, before flexing her muscles in her final event.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:05 pm

Well, Laura Roesler did a wide range and won almost all of her four events most of her four (plus) years. However, Cain is in New York, not North Dakota, so beating a bunch of decent runners would be a stiffer task. I would think that the 800/1600/3200 triple would be all she could garner (except that Bronxville has a pretty good relay team or two).

Of course, the bigger the state, the more the points of opponents will be split as well. A few years back a gal in Texas single-highhandedly won state in the smallest school division. Also I guy from Montana did the same there in the 1990s, but he was eventually a decathlete.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:45 pm

I doubt she gets much motivation from beating high school talent. Everyone knows she is by far and away the best at the state level. Why risk injury to even attempt to satisfy someone that others would only view you as a failure as for not doing? The only real competition she has is the U.S. elite women and world elite youth. She might have to decide which she runs this year if running both is too close. It would be nice if they would let her on the world youth team and let her performance at USATF be the qualifier but I doubt that would happen.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:03 pm

I don't see why she wouldn't get as much gratification out of winning a team state championship as Lebron James did when he was in high school, or as Missy Franklin did just a couple of months ago.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:24 pm

Well, none of the USA Gymnastics Olympians compete in their state high school competitions. I am not sure than any of the larger number of Elites do (I will ask my (very) local expert). This might be because USA Gymnastics prohibits it. Only a few of them go back later and compete in college. Of course, the women's team is composed almost entirely of 16-19 year olds, and those born in the year after the Olympics you are probably out of luck, as not many 19-year olds make the team.

Clearly, Cain's path is fundamentally different from other high school track and field athletes; she is generally far above them and in a highly marketable portion of the sport. Notice that she is probably not any better relative to the top US athletes in some of the throws and high jump this last year (but this has been pointed out before). Yet they competed in high school events as well, I think, although it is easier to do so in the throws and high jump.

I do wonder a little if the 4:15 will change people's perception of how far ahead Cain actually is?
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:32 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Does Cain still compete in high school meets? I could easily see her single-handedly almost winning a team championship by herself if she ran just fast enough to win multiple events, before flexing her muscles in her final event.


I don't see that this was ever answered. No she doesn't.

My concern with Cain is less competitive than it is social. Sports is a big social activity to most high schoolers. My son is graduating this year from HS and has a scholarship to play football in college. So he's fairly high level even if not an NFL prospect. Based on my observation, his social interaction and development has been the most important aspect of his participation in the sport with teammates and players on other teams.

Hopefully, part of her "plan" with the Salazar group was to allow for this interaction although I'm not sure at all how this happens as it doesn't make sense to me logistically.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:47 pm

This is generally true for the 90% of high school athletes that do not go on seriously in college. It is also generally true of 95%++ for college athletes on scholarship. However, for those at the very top (look at gymnastics, pianists, chess players, physicists, soccer players, ice hockey players, ... it is less true the further along they go.

Cain stayed 'normal' until she was 16 but at that point, career aspects start to lead to potentially atypical paths. That does not de-legitimize the standard social functioning of sports and teams. Track and Field is not inherently a team sport (XC is, by comparison) and the social interactions become a bit different when the objectives diverge.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby CookyMonzta » Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:06 pm

Don't look now, but Mary may have company in the 1,500/mile. At this past Sunday's Payton Jordan meet at Stanford, Elise Cranny (class of 2014) ran 4:15.07 for #3 all-time.

Payton Jordan - Cardinal Invite - Apr 28, 2013
Cobb Track & Angell Field, Stanford University, 295 Galvez St, Stanford, CA, US, 94305
Timing/Results by: Record Timing - San Francisco - CA - Timing C

Womens 1500m Section 2 Back to top
Name Yr School Finals H# Pts
1 Moultrie, Josephine New Mexico 4:14.44 1
2 Fedronic, Justine Stanford 4:14.69 1
3 Cranny, Elise Unattached 4:15.07 1
4 Mecke, Dana Unattached 4:15.49 1
5 Salerno, Melissa New Balance 4:16.02 1
6 Curl, Sophie San Francisco 4:16.09 1
7 Adler, Monica Unattached 4:16.72 1
8 Hagans, Lauren Asics 4:17.00 1
9 Hall, Linden Florida State 4:19.47 1
10 Wood, Keri Arkansas 4:21.07 1
-- Anderson, Chloe New Mexico DNF 1
-- Ainsworth, Imogen New Mexico DNF 1

Read more: News - 2013 Results - Payton Jordan - Cardinal Invite http://www.runnerspace.com/news.php?new ... z2RvakPAO4
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby booond » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:53 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I don't see why she wouldn't get as much gratification out of winning a team state championship as Lebron James did when he was in high school, or as Missy Franklin did just a couple of months ago.


LeBron plays a team sport and didn't have a professional outlet.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:50 am

booond wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I don't see why she wouldn't get as much gratification out of winning a team state championship as Lebron James did when he was in high school, or as Missy Franklin did just a couple of months ago.


LeBron plays a team sport and didn't have a professional outlet.

What are you talking about? High school and college track are team sports. And not that it matters since Cain, like Missy Franklin, is still an amateur, but James certainly did have a professional outlet since the NBA didn't yet have any age restrictions when he turned pro.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby booond » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:10 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
booond wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I don't see why she wouldn't get as much gratification out of winning a team state championship as Lebron James did when he was in high school, or as Missy Franklin did just a couple of months ago.


LeBron plays a team sport and didn't have a professional outlet.

What are you talking about? High school and college track are team sports. And not that it matters since Cain, like Missy Franklin, is still an amateur, but James certainly did have a professional outlet since the NBA didn't yet have any age restrictions when he turned pro.
.

When LeBron was 16 there was no professional outlet as you had to be a high school graduate to join the NBA. He and his mother considered petitioning the NBA to change the rules but decided against it.

Track and field is an individual sport. That scores are calculated based on performance doesn't make it a team sport.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:12 pm

booond wrote:When LeBron was 16 there was no professional outlet as you had to be a high school graduate to join the NBA. He and his mother considered petitioning the NBA to change the rules but decided against it.

Could you please provide a link to this "high school graduate" rule? By the way, the NBA isn't the only professional outlet for basketball. In case you didn't know it, there are thriving pro leagues in Europe and China.
booond wrote:Track and field is an individual sport. That scores are calculated based on performance doesn't make it a team sport.

Oh, so now you're playing semantics. Just because you say that high school and college track aren't team sports, doesn't make it so, and the folks who run this website certainly agree with me, lest I'm imagining the weekly updates of team rankings that regularly appear on the front page. And you still haven't addressed Missy Franklin's situation nor the fact that Cain is still competing as an amateur.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby br » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:44 pm

Beginning in 1971, underclassmen were allowed to enter the NBA Draft provided they could give evidence of “hardship” to the NBA office. In 1976 the hardship requirement was eliminated in favor of the current Early Entry procedure, whereby any athlete with remaining college eligibility can enter the NBA Draft on the condition that he notifies the league office at least 45 days before the draft. International players could declare eligibility in the calendar year of their 18th birthday, or later.

Starting with the 2006 NBA Draft, the eligibility rules have changed.

http://www.thedraftreview.com/index.php ... Itemid=122
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby runforlife » Wed May 01, 2013 1:53 pm

Interesting that Queen Mary's 1500m time was very close to the HS boy's 1600m Relay's record winning time of 4:10.86 by Josh Evans of Linn-Mar. This broke the Relays record of 4:11.57 by Steve Greiner of Pekin in 1979.
However, Doug Smith of Sioux Falls set the Relays mile record of 4:12.6 in 1968. When doing comparisons and calculations, Smith's record is actually superior to Greiner's. Even factoring in FAT.
Therefore Evans actually broke the 45 year old Smith record.
The all time IA HS record miler, Ed Delashmutt of Fort Madison, was denied a shot at the Relay's mile record in 1976, This is because a 1500m HS boy's race was held that year for the first and only time in Relay's history.

Did Greiner ever realize he never really ran faster than Smith?
Did Smith know he held the Relay's record for 45 years?
Was Delashmutt upset he never had a chance at the record in '76?

It would be interesting to know where these 3 are today and what they are doing.
Any information???
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby aaronk » Thu May 02, 2013 10:24 pm

Back from my "vacation"......
at Walla Walla State Prison.....
errrr, Pago Pago.....
ummmmm, Bellingham WA!!

And thought the best place for a "first returning comment" was the....
Scene of the "Crime"!!

But WHAT crime??
Being overly enthused about a 16 year old (Now 17!!! Happy Birthday, Mary Cain!!!!) high school girl's MEGA-talents and abilities and potential??

So much so that one NUTCASE went so far as to suggest that Mary's DAD should be CONCERNED???
(BTW, my reaction to that insane remark.......2 :lol: 's and 1 :roll: ......would be, and remains the same now as what got me sent on "vacation"!!)

So I guess all those SCREAMING, FAINTING, ORGASMING adolescent Justin Beiber fans should be sent on "vacation" too???
(Not that any of the above was occurring in my liking of Ms Cain!!!)

Come to think of it, maybe Alberto Salazar should be sent up the creek for a week too!!
After all, in that recent article on Cain, Alberto called Mary (paraphrased) "the greatest female talent he's ever seen" !!

You know what, Mr Salazar......
I totally agree with you!!!

P.S. Happy to be back!!
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby gh » Thu May 02, 2013 10:28 pm

dude.... temper it, or you're gone again, this time forever. no shit
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby aaronk » Thu May 02, 2013 10:41 pm

Now on to more important things......like Cain's race at Drake!

Was I disappointed?
Absolutely!
Devastated?
Absolutely NOT!!

And neither was Mary!
In the post-race interview, she TWICE stated she could have gone "a lot faster"!!

Was this a "bad" race?
NO!!
Not unless you call a race in which you AGAIN break the HSR....a "bad" race!!

That she ran the first lap right behind Jenny Simpson (and the pacer) tells me she WAS intending to gun for the "A" standard.
Not sure exactly why, but she obviously did not feel good that day, and smartly backed off.....still finishing well for her EIGHTH HSR, indoors and out.

Here's a little tidbit you might not be aware of:
Only 3 runners got PR's in that race....out of 11 finishers!
Kate Grace, Emma Coburn, and.......Mary Cain!!

No PR's for Rowbury, Reid, Uceny, or Simpson!!

Congratulations to Jenny for a great race and time.
Also to the gracious and friendly Ms Reid.
(I call her that because of how she treated Mary after their Millrose race!!)

And while Ms Uceny doesn't seem overly concerned with her 2nd poor showing this year, I am......a bit.
WILL she get an "A"......or even a "B"??
I hope so.

But whatever her excuse is for running slow, Cain DID beat her at Drake!!
So it's Mary Cain at 1-0 over Morgan Uceny....
and Uceny at 0 and 1 against Ms Cain!!
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby doug5321 » Thu May 02, 2013 10:50 pm

http://www.flashwest.com/Run%20San%20Di ... ntries.pdf just a note cain is running the 800 on sunday.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby EPelle » Thu May 02, 2013 11:55 pm

aaronk wrote:Here's a little tidbit you might not be aware of:
Only 3 runners got PR's in that race....out of 11 finishers!
Kate Grace, Emma Coburn, and.......Mary Cain!!

Is every race a PB opportunity? Most people are cognisant of the fact that Drake was contested in April. And that most of the contestants are elite. Coburn's a steepler who improved from an existing sub-4.10. The elite 1.500m runners aren't aiming for an April PB. At Drake. And, they never were. One can continue drilling down. But why?
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby aaronk » Fri May 03, 2013 12:21 am

EPelle wrote:
aaronk wrote:Here's a little tidbit you might not be aware of:
Only 3 runners got PR's in that race....out of 11 finishers!
Kate Grace, Emma Coburn, and.......Mary Cain!!

Is every race a PB opportunity? Most people are cognisant of the fact that Drake was contested in April. And that most of the contestants are elite. Coburn's a steepler who improved from an existing sub-4.10. The elite 1.500m runners aren't aiming for an April PB. At Drake. And, they never were. One can continue drilling down. But why?


BTW, I'm NOT aware of what Coburn's PR was prior to Drake....but somewhere it said that her time last week was a PR.
Was it?? Or has she run faster for 1500??

As to elite runners....in ANY distance event (800-10000).....not going for "A"'s or PR's in April.....please note the results of the Payton Jordan meet just ONE DAY later......still in April!!

There were NUMEROUS PR's there......in every distance event......and even a few "A"'s.
They didn't achieve them by accident........though I don't think Cranny or Cheever expected to run as fast as they did!!.....but by design!!

While April isn't the BEST time to get a PR.......the Drake 1500 DID have a field so good......that it still seems a waste for those who didn't at least TRY for an "A"......and maybe even a PR, in some cases.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby EPelle » Fri May 03, 2013 12:41 am

Apples. Oranges. When one takes note that had the eventual Drake contestants desired to chase a time last week-end, they'd have travelled to Palo Alto—not to Des Moines, which isn't/hasn't been conducive to running very fast times—there's not much (no) comparison to be drawn between the two invites or fields. The Drake contestants lined up to check things out. See where they were. Tune-up. Burn off some rust. Some obviously are still really rusty; they're in heavier training modes. Payton-Jordan is a prime location/meet to set a PB/SB, but the Drake contestants obviously saw logic in contesting the mid-west meet.

Fortunately the DL season soon kicks off, and nearly all meets become contests of importance and relevance.

Coburn ran 4.09,42 on 18-May last year and 4.12,31 indoors at the Armory three months ago.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby az2004 » Fri May 03, 2013 3:02 am

do we know when and where cain will race next

prthsps ny diamond league or Eugene will give her more experience
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby doug5321 » Fri May 03, 2013 3:27 am

az2004 wrote:do we know when and where cain will race next

prthsps ny diamond league or Eugene will give her more experience


yes a 800 on sunday in san diego. http://www.flashwest.com/Run%20San%20Di ... ntries.pdf
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby Dutra5 » Fri May 03, 2013 4:02 am

aaronk wrote:
That she ran the first lap right behind Jenny Simpson (and the pacer) tells me she WAS intending to gun for the "A" standard.


Cain said she figured she'd run 4:08-09

Here's a little tidbit you might not be aware of:
Only 3 runners got PR's in that race....out of 11 finishers!
Kate Grace, Emma Coburn, and.......Mary Cain!!


Which is more than typical.

No PR's for Rowbury, Reid, Uceny, or Simpson!!


Which is normal unless one believes running a PR would be expected in April.
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Re: Mary Cain vs America's Elite at Drake [4:10.77 HSR]

Postby rgjp » Fri May 03, 2013 6:24 am

Simpson, Rowbury and Uceny's PR's are all 4:00 and faster

Of course it will be more challenging for these three ladies to PR every time they get into a race.

They are also seasoned champions who know how to build their fitness in preparation for 5 months of racing

April to late September is a long time to be race sharp.

I don't see why that is so hard for you to understand

Late June and Mid August are the dates that they really care about so please try to keep this in perspective before you continue to criticize their early season results.

I think it is fine for you to sing praises for a talented high schooler (although at times your posts are a bit creepy to me), but I don't see why you feel the need to bring the pros down in the process.

ie. Mary 1 / Morgan 0

Really??? Not cool!!
rgjp
 
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