more Russian positives [split]


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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Blues » Wed May 01, 2013 7:11 am

eldanielfire wrote:
gh wrote:
I don't know that it's scientifically proven, but conventional wisdom now is that there are "super-responders" who get a far bigger boost than others. And I don't think it has anything to do with elemental skill level to begin with.

I've told this story before,but I remember sitting around the pool at the '73 AAU meet in Bakersfield, shooting the shit with a bunch of athletes, and one of them (an Olympian) was kvetching about the new kid on the block, saying, roughly, "I've been taking steroids for 3 years and now X comes along and takes half as much as me for 6 months and his PR is going out of sight."

(understanding that this was a time when athletes thought that dodging around PED rules was just part of the game, like accepting money under the table: indeed, in that era, the violating the money side was far worse the crime)


This is very much true, Ben Johnson very much went from slowest to fastest under his coach as a super responder, then fastest in the world.



How someome responds to a steroid can be due to other factors too. Part of the difference in how an athlete responds may involve what his or her normal testosterone level was before using the drug. Normal levels in individuals can vary significantly, and someone with lower initial levels could show more improvement. There can be differences in absorption, metabolism and elimination of the drug. And obviously how an athlete trains while on steroids will play a major role.

The particular steroid chosen, along with the dosage used, will make a difference in the performance enhancing effects too. If an athlete is willing to risk having the drug be more detectable, the athlete may choose a higher dosage for maximum benefit in minimum time. And some steroids have more anabolic (muscle building) effects than others, and some have less androgenic (masculinizing) effects, and some are less safe than others, and some can be harder to detect, and some are easier to administer (oral doses instead of injections, less medical oversight/monitoring required, etc), and some cost less. So which performance enhancing steroid an athlete chooses to use in order to cheat can be based on the athlete's priorities. (maximum benefit, minimal masculinizing effects or other adverse effects, cost, less risk of detection, ease of administration, etc..), and can affect the degree and rate of performance enhancement.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Blues » Wed May 01, 2013 7:32 am

eldanielfire wrote:
gh wrote:When PEDS first came on the scene (in a big way), one of the prevailing bits of conventional wisdom was that steroids didn't change the playing field; they simply raised everybody to a higher level.

I don't know that it's scientifically proven, but conventional wisdom now is that there are "super-responders" who get a far bigger boost than others. And I don't think it has anything to do with elemental skill level to begin with.

I've told this story before,but I remember sitting around the pool at the '73 AAU meet in Bakersfield, shooting the shit with a bunch of athletes, and one of them (an Olympian) was kvetching about the new kid on the block, saying, roughly, "I've been taking steroids for 3 years and now X comes along and takes half as much as me for 6 months and his PR is going out of sight."

(understanding that this was a time when athletes thought that dodging around PED rules was just part of the game, like accepting money under the table: indeed, in that era, the violating the money side was far worse the crime)


This is very much true, Ben Johnson very much went from slowest to fastest under his coach as a super responder, then fastest in the world.


I could be wrong, but judging by the fact that the sclera of Ben Johnson's eyes seemed to be noticeably yellow at the time of his positive test, there's a chance that he might have been on relatively high dosage, and/or using long term.. If that's the case, that might be somewhat responsible for his super response.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Flumpy » Thu May 02, 2013 12:06 am

Jon wrote:
peach77 wrote:Quick point about yesterday's latest revelations...why are both Pumper and Pischalnikova not banned for life for second offences!?
As I understand it, the rules have changed slightly. A second offence used to mean an instant lifetime ban. Now, each individual governing body can choose the punishment, ranging from eight years to a lifetime ban.


Why??? :?
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu May 02, 2013 4:19 am

Well, a ten-year ban (after already being out, possibly for 2 years) is virtually a lifetime ban in our sport.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Gabriella » Thu May 02, 2013 5:37 am

eldanielfire wrote:Arzhakova caught me by surprise, seemed a genuinely talented U23 runner who was the real deal.


Are you really surprised though? I'm surprised that people are surprised when the next Russian is busted. The more the situation unfolds the more it is clear there is some kind of organised doping programme. This is definitely one relic still standing from the Cold War.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby eldanielfire » Thu May 02, 2013 5:59 am

Gabriella wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:Arzhakova caught me by surprise, seemed a genuinely talented U23 runner who was the real deal.


Are you really surprised though? I'm surprised that people are surprised when the next Russian is busted. The more the situation unfolds the more it is clear there is some kind of organised doping programme. This is definitely one relic still standing from the Cold War.


Some of us don't believe every Russian is secretly doping and Arzhakova doesn't exactly fit the profile; she commonly seen on the circuits and without the suspicious out of place improvements to her performances. She has been consistently good as she grew up and developed. Even Lynsey Sharp who now benefits from her dope bust said she was surprised as they were friendly as they met-up on the circuit regularly and spoke to each other, when British athletes nearly always suspect their Russian rivals and are scathing about them when they are caught.

If I was to do such broad strokes then I'd be just as scathing of the USA, whose doping culture has also tried to cover-up positives and generally, even recently, accepted any tin pot excuse to give the lightest bans possible when their athletes are caught and who will likely field two drug cheats in the men's 4x100m relay in the World Championships this year on top of the one likely to be in the men's 4x400m relay and to factor in their women's team an athlete who keeps associating a man who has a ten year doping ban and was named in the most high profile drugs case prior to Lance Armstrong. And let us not start on American Football and it's close association and overlap with Track and Field Athletes.

But the thing is I don't, the vast majority of Russian Athletes are dopers like the vast majority of American ones aren't. Sure if a Russian athlete fits the profile of other Russian doper I'll be suspicious, likewise an American but I won't assume that in a nation of 130 Million+ that they are all doping however common it might be.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Gabriella » Thu May 02, 2013 7:30 am

eldanielfire wrote: Some of us don't believe every Russian is secretly doping and Arzhakova doesn't exactly fit the profile; she commonly seen on the circuits and without the suspicious out of place improvements to her performances.

But the thing is I don't, the vast majority of Russian Athletes are dopers like the vast majority of American ones aren't. Sure if a Russian athlete fits the profile of other Russian doper I'll be suspicious, likewise an American but I won't assume that in a nation of 130 Million+ that they are all doping however common it might be.


So you don't think there is anything organised going on, that it is just individuals chosing to dope? You just think it's coincidental that a large number of Russians over various sports are failing tests? That whole training camps are failing tests for using someone elses samples - Soboleva, Fomenko, Tomashove etc - that others have been accused of gene doping?

This newspaper article summed it up nicely:

The number of suspensions, and the varied events involved, raised troubling questions about possible ineptitude or corruption in Russian drug-testing procedures and also prompted concerns about whether a deliberate, systematic attempt was made by coaches or officials to undermine drug-testing protocols.
If the charges are substantiated, “it raises a flag as to some sort of organized initiative to evade detection,” said Dr. Gary I. Wadler, a professor of medicine at New York University who helped develop screening protocols for the World Anti-Doping Agency
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby mump boy » Thu May 02, 2013 8:48 am

26mi235 wrote:Well, a ten-year ban (after already being out, possibly for 2 years) is virtually a lifetime ban in our sport.


Not in the discus
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby eldanielfire » Thu May 02, 2013 10:50 am

Gabriella wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: Some of us don't believe every Russian is secretly doping and Arzhakova doesn't exactly fit the profile; she commonly seen on the circuits and without the suspicious out of place improvements to her performances.

But the thing is I don't, the vast majority of Russian Athletes are dopers like the vast majority of American ones aren't. Sure if a Russian athlete fits the profile of other Russian doper I'll be suspicious, likewise an American but I won't assume that in a nation of 130 Million+ that they are all doping however common it might be.


So you don't think there is anything organised going on, that it is just individuals chosing to dope? You just think it's coincidental that a large number of Russians over various sports are failing tests? That whole training camps are failing tests for using someone elses samples - Soboleva, Fomenko, Tomashove etc - that others have been accused of gene doping?

This newspaper article summed it up nicely:

The number of suspensions, and the varied events involved, raised troubling questions about possible ineptitude or corruption in Russian drug-testing procedures and also prompted concerns about whether a deliberate, systematic attempt was made by coaches or officials to undermine drug-testing protocols.
If the charges are substantiated, “it raises a flag as to some sort of organized initiative to evade detection,” said Dr. Gary I. Wadler, a professor of medicine at New York University who helped develop screening protocols for the World Anti-Doping Agency


All modern doping is organised, that's not quite the same as a whole country is doing it. The black scandal doesn't mean the whole of the USA is doping, nor does the fact UK cycling/team sky employing doctors with dodgy doping pasts nor using doper David Miller at last years Olympics mean Bradley Wiggins, Chris Hoy, Victoria Pendleton and Laura Trott achieved success via doping
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