more Russian positives [split]


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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:32 am

Conor Dary wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:

While I know testosterone has a greater effect on women than men, why is there such an abundance of women being caught and not men in all kinds of doping?


Most likely all of the talented men, the ones who have a better chance of getting tested, are playing soccer, where the real money is.


That still doesn't explain why the men in T&F, who at the elite level would be equal numbers aren't doping. I mean any and all evidence in studies usually tells you men are more likely to cheat than women.

But it's not just an imbalance, it's so one sided that on a see-saw the women caught doping would launch the men into orbit. The imbalance is massive, it seems like there are 10+ female dopers to male ones.

Conor Dary wrote:Yes, I am sure there are plenty of anectodal exceptions. But for a huge majority the focus, from a young age, is going into soccer. It is huge money now. That is pretty much why European track really doesn't exist much anymore. The meets are there, but where are the teams? In the WCCC Europe was pretty much nonexistent.


I wouldn't say it is non existent. North America has always dominated the track except against european countries historically associated with doping. Now without those countries running amock and more competition from the West Indies, East Africa and a few other spots the competition is far greater
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby norunner » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:34 am

Conor Dary wrote:Yes, I am sure there are plenty of anectodal exceptions. But for a huge majority the focus, from a young age, is going into soccer. It is huge money now. That is pretty much why European track really doesn't exist much anymore. The meets are there, but where are the teams? In the WCCC Europe was pretty much nonexistent.
Do you have children? Whatever sports they prefer, do they like it because they can eventually make big money with it? I've never heard a 10 year old talk about money when he explains why he loves soccer or track or even chess. But where your logic really fails is women, they don't make a lot of money in soccer.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:15 am

Russian Men are much more scarce at the top than Russian Women

PEDs (especially testosterone, etc) have more effect on women than men

Men in Russia have more commercial/employment/financial opportunities in soccer than in track and field, while women have more financial opportunities in track and field.

I suspect more parents are soccer fans than T&F fans, and parents and the interests of others form part of the interest of kids.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby gh » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:36 am

my takes is that the imbalance is simple physiology: hormones will have a greater effect on women, and can overcome genetic shortcomings far more than they do with men.

In other words, creating superwomen is far easier than supermen, where the basic athletic DNA has to be in place to begin with.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby kuha » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:11 am

norunner wrote:Do you have children? Whatever sports they prefer, do they like it because they can eventually make big money with it? I've never heard a 10 year old talk about money when he explains why he loves soccer or track or even chess. But where your logic really fails is women, they don't make a lot of money in soccer.


The point here is that TONS of kids ARE playing soccer. And if they're really talented, there are many MORE pro opportunities for 20-yr old soccer players than t&f specialists. There's no mystery here.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:37 am

26mi235 wrote:Russian Men are much more scarce at the top than Russian Women

PEDs (especially testosterone, etc) have more effect on women than men

Men in Russia have more commercial/employment/financial opportunities in soccer than in track and field, while women have more financial opportunities in track and field.

I suspect more parents are soccer fans than T&F fans, and parents and the interests of others form part of the interest of kids.


Russian men aren't more scares at the top. Yes it may be less of the Russian talent goes to the top in the sport of T&F but they will still field roughly an equal number of males and females Track and Field athletes even if the female have more of the talent.

gh wrote:my takes is that the imbalance is simple physiology: hormones will have a greater effect on women, and can overcome genetic shortcomings far more than they do with men.

In other words, creating superwomen is far easier than supermen, where the basic athletic DNA has to be in place to begin with.


Men have more Testosterone, the muscle builder hormone and therefore testosterone having a greater effect on women makes sense, hence the use of steroids which basically do that, but for things like EPO there should be no reason it has a greater effect on women than men as far as I'm aware.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby marknhj » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:32 am

Kids are playing football in every country on the planet because its fun, not because they can earn more money.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby LopenUupunut » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:26 pm

Kids are playing football because other kids are playing football. If you're going to do some sport, the one your friends are doing is an obvious pick.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby kuha » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:55 pm

Chicken! Egg!
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:01 pm

eldanielfire wrote:Russian men aren't more scares at the top. Yes it may be less of the Russian talent goes to the top in the sport of T&F but they will still field roughly an equal number of males and females Track and Field athletes even if the female have more of the talent.


At the top means at the top of the World - medal contenders and medal winners. There are few runners aside from Borzo the last half dozen years and the high jump has enough talent for 3-4 nations but is thinner on other field events.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:09 pm

26mi235 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:Russian men aren't more scares at the top. Yes it may be less of the Russian talent goes to the top in the sport of T&F but they will still field roughly an equal number of males and females Track and Field athletes even if the female have more of the talent.


At the top means at the top of the World - medal contenders and medal winners. There are few runners aside from Borzo the last half dozen years and the high jump has enough talent for 3-4 nations but is thinner on other field events.


I understand, but that shouldn't affect the imbalance of doping, regardless of talent.

As for the intention, recently we have even had a teenager banned. I doubt teen all of these female athletes are doing it themselves.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby marknhj » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:49 pm

26mi235 wrote:At the top means at the top of the World - medal contenders and medal winners. There are few runners aside from Borzo the last half dozen years and the high jump has enough talent for 3-4 nations but is thinner on other field events.


26's last point has been making me a bit concerned in the past few months. Of course, none of this is new, they're just getting caught.

I'll repeat the story of when my father took one of his female Olympian athletes to train with the Russians in the late 1980's - early 1990's. The girl was given a tube containing a liquid by a Russian coach and told, "take this and you'll jump higher". This was the coach of a world record holder, world champion, and Olympic medalist who was also in the camp. My Dad took it off her and had it analysed when he was home, it was HGH. The other memorable quote he came home was, "first we train, then we drink". They'd train hard and then all get shitfaced.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby JumboElliott » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:41 pm

gh wrote:my takes is that the imbalance is simple physiology: hormones will have a greater effect on women, and can overcome genetic shortcomings far more than they do with men.

In other words, creating superwomen is far easier than supermen, where the basic athletic DNA has to be in place to begin with.

And I guess that just amplifies things with people who are already massively gifted like Marion and Kelli White?
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby gh » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:29 pm

When PEDS first came on the scene (in a big way), one of the prevailing bits of conventional wisdom was that steroids didn't change the playing field; they simply raised everybody to a higher level.

I don't know that it's scientifically proven, but conventional wisdom now is that there are "super-responders" who get a far bigger boost than others. And I don't think it has anything to do with elemental skill level to begin with.

I've told this story before,but I remember sitting around the pool at the '73 AAU meet in Bakersfield, shooting the shit with a bunch of athletes, and one of them (an Olympian) was kvetching about the new kid on the block, saying, roughly, "I've been taking steroids for 3 years and now X comes along and takes half as much as me for 6 months and his PR is going out of sight."

(understanding that this was a time when athletes thought that dodging around PED rules was just part of the game, like accepting money under the table: indeed, in that era, the violating the money side was far worse the crime)
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby peach77 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:55 pm

Quick point about yesterday's latest revelations...why are both Pumper and Pischalnikova not banned for life for second offences!?
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby eldanielfire » Wed May 01, 2013 12:47 am

gh wrote:When PEDS first came on the scene (in a big way), one of the prevailing bits of conventional wisdom was that steroids didn't change the playing field; they simply raised everybody to a higher level.

I don't know that it's scientifically proven, but conventional wisdom now is that there are "super-responders" who get a far bigger boost than others. And I don't think it has anything to do with elemental skill level to begin with.

I've told this story before,but I remember sitting around the pool at the '73 AAU meet in Bakersfield, shooting the shit with a bunch of athletes, and one of them (an Olympian) was kvetching about the new kid on the block, saying, roughly, "I've been taking steroids for 3 years and now X comes along and takes half as much as me for 6 months and his PR is going out of sight."

(understanding that this was a time when athletes thought that dodging around PED rules was just part of the game, like accepting money under the table: indeed, in that era, the violating the money side was far worse the crime)


This is very much true, Ben Johnson very much went from slowest to fastest under his coach as a super responder, then fastest in the world.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Master Po » Wed May 01, 2013 1:55 am

peach77 wrote:Quick point about yesterday's latest revelations...why are both Pumper and Pischalnikova not banned for life for second offences!?


I also wondered about this when I read of these two.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby EPelle » Wed May 01, 2013 3:28 am

Nikita Kamayev, executive director of Russia’s Ani-doping Agency wrote:An athlete who commits a second offence involving [anabolic steroids] could face from eight years to a life ban.”

Based on re-drafted WADA by-laws, I believe the lifetime ban for repeat offences is effective from 2015.
Last edited by EPelle on Wed May 01, 2013 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Jon » Wed May 01, 2013 3:35 am

peach77 wrote:Quick point about yesterday's latest revelations...why are both Pumper and Pischalnikova not banned for life for second offences!?
As I understand it, the rules have changed slightly. A second offence used to mean an instant lifetime ban. Now, each individual governing body can choose the punishment, ranging from eight years to a lifetime ban.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby mump boy » Wed May 01, 2013 4:42 am

Presumably WADA can appeal this to CAS ?
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Blues » Wed May 01, 2013 7:11 am

eldanielfire wrote:
gh wrote:
I don't know that it's scientifically proven, but conventional wisdom now is that there are "super-responders" who get a far bigger boost than others. And I don't think it has anything to do with elemental skill level to begin with.

I've told this story before,but I remember sitting around the pool at the '73 AAU meet in Bakersfield, shooting the shit with a bunch of athletes, and one of them (an Olympian) was kvetching about the new kid on the block, saying, roughly, "I've been taking steroids for 3 years and now X comes along and takes half as much as me for 6 months and his PR is going out of sight."

(understanding that this was a time when athletes thought that dodging around PED rules was just part of the game, like accepting money under the table: indeed, in that era, the violating the money side was far worse the crime)


This is very much true, Ben Johnson very much went from slowest to fastest under his coach as a super responder, then fastest in the world.



How someome responds to a steroid can be due to other factors too. Part of the difference in how an athlete responds may involve what his or her normal testosterone level was before using the drug. Normal levels in individuals can vary significantly, and someone with lower initial levels could show more improvement. There can be differences in absorption, metabolism and elimination of the drug. And obviously how an athlete trains while on steroids will play a major role.

The particular steroid chosen, along with the dosage used, will make a difference in the performance enhancing effects too. If an athlete is willing to risk having the drug be more detectable, the athlete may choose a higher dosage for maximum benefit in minimum time. And some steroids have more anabolic (muscle building) effects than others, and some have less androgenic (masculinizing) effects, and some are less safe than others, and some can be harder to detect, and some are easier to administer (oral doses instead of injections, less medical oversight/monitoring required, etc), and some cost less. So which performance enhancing steroid an athlete chooses to use in order to cheat can be based on the athlete's priorities. (maximum benefit, minimal masculinizing effects or other adverse effects, cost, less risk of detection, ease of administration, etc..), and can affect the degree and rate of performance enhancement.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Blues » Wed May 01, 2013 7:32 am

eldanielfire wrote:
gh wrote:When PEDS first came on the scene (in a big way), one of the prevailing bits of conventional wisdom was that steroids didn't change the playing field; they simply raised everybody to a higher level.

I don't know that it's scientifically proven, but conventional wisdom now is that there are "super-responders" who get a far bigger boost than others. And I don't think it has anything to do with elemental skill level to begin with.

I've told this story before,but I remember sitting around the pool at the '73 AAU meet in Bakersfield, shooting the shit with a bunch of athletes, and one of them (an Olympian) was kvetching about the new kid on the block, saying, roughly, "I've been taking steroids for 3 years and now X comes along and takes half as much as me for 6 months and his PR is going out of sight."

(understanding that this was a time when athletes thought that dodging around PED rules was just part of the game, like accepting money under the table: indeed, in that era, the violating the money side was far worse the crime)


This is very much true, Ben Johnson very much went from slowest to fastest under his coach as a super responder, then fastest in the world.


I could be wrong, but judging by the fact that the sclera of Ben Johnson's eyes seemed to be noticeably yellow at the time of his positive test, there's a chance that he might have been on relatively high dosage, and/or using long term.. If that's the case, that might be somewhat responsible for his super response.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Flumpy » Thu May 02, 2013 12:06 am

Jon wrote:
peach77 wrote:Quick point about yesterday's latest revelations...why are both Pumper and Pischalnikova not banned for life for second offences!?
As I understand it, the rules have changed slightly. A second offence used to mean an instant lifetime ban. Now, each individual governing body can choose the punishment, ranging from eight years to a lifetime ban.


Why??? :?
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu May 02, 2013 4:19 am

Well, a ten-year ban (after already being out, possibly for 2 years) is virtually a lifetime ban in our sport.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Gabriella » Thu May 02, 2013 5:37 am

eldanielfire wrote:Arzhakova caught me by surprise, seemed a genuinely talented U23 runner who was the real deal.


Are you really surprised though? I'm surprised that people are surprised when the next Russian is busted. The more the situation unfolds the more it is clear there is some kind of organised doping programme. This is definitely one relic still standing from the Cold War.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby eldanielfire » Thu May 02, 2013 5:59 am

Gabriella wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:Arzhakova caught me by surprise, seemed a genuinely talented U23 runner who was the real deal.


Are you really surprised though? I'm surprised that people are surprised when the next Russian is busted. The more the situation unfolds the more it is clear there is some kind of organised doping programme. This is definitely one relic still standing from the Cold War.


Some of us don't believe every Russian is secretly doping and Arzhakova doesn't exactly fit the profile; she commonly seen on the circuits and without the suspicious out of place improvements to her performances. She has been consistently good as she grew up and developed. Even Lynsey Sharp who now benefits from her dope bust said she was surprised as they were friendly as they met-up on the circuit regularly and spoke to each other, when British athletes nearly always suspect their Russian rivals and are scathing about them when they are caught.

If I was to do such broad strokes then I'd be just as scathing of the USA, whose doping culture has also tried to cover-up positives and generally, even recently, accepted any tin pot excuse to give the lightest bans possible when their athletes are caught and who will likely field two drug cheats in the men's 4x100m relay in the World Championships this year on top of the one likely to be in the men's 4x400m relay and to factor in their women's team an athlete who keeps associating a man who has a ten year doping ban and was named in the most high profile drugs case prior to Lance Armstrong. And let us not start on American Football and it's close association and overlap with Track and Field Athletes.

But the thing is I don't, the vast majority of Russian Athletes are dopers like the vast majority of American ones aren't. Sure if a Russian athlete fits the profile of other Russian doper I'll be suspicious, likewise an American but I won't assume that in a nation of 130 Million+ that they are all doping however common it might be.
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby Gabriella » Thu May 02, 2013 7:30 am

eldanielfire wrote: Some of us don't believe every Russian is secretly doping and Arzhakova doesn't exactly fit the profile; she commonly seen on the circuits and without the suspicious out of place improvements to her performances.

But the thing is I don't, the vast majority of Russian Athletes are dopers like the vast majority of American ones aren't. Sure if a Russian athlete fits the profile of other Russian doper I'll be suspicious, likewise an American but I won't assume that in a nation of 130 Million+ that they are all doping however common it might be.


So you don't think there is anything organised going on, that it is just individuals chosing to dope? You just think it's coincidental that a large number of Russians over various sports are failing tests? That whole training camps are failing tests for using someone elses samples - Soboleva, Fomenko, Tomashove etc - that others have been accused of gene doping?

This newspaper article summed it up nicely:

The number of suspensions, and the varied events involved, raised troubling questions about possible ineptitude or corruption in Russian drug-testing procedures and also prompted concerns about whether a deliberate, systematic attempt was made by coaches or officials to undermine drug-testing protocols.
If the charges are substantiated, “it raises a flag as to some sort of organized initiative to evade detection,” said Dr. Gary I. Wadler, a professor of medicine at New York University who helped develop screening protocols for the World Anti-Doping Agency
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby mump boy » Thu May 02, 2013 8:48 am

26mi235 wrote:Well, a ten-year ban (after already being out, possibly for 2 years) is virtually a lifetime ban in our sport.


Not in the discus
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Re: more Russian positives [split]

Postby eldanielfire » Thu May 02, 2013 10:50 am

Gabriella wrote:
eldanielfire wrote: Some of us don't believe every Russian is secretly doping and Arzhakova doesn't exactly fit the profile; she commonly seen on the circuits and without the suspicious out of place improvements to her performances.

But the thing is I don't, the vast majority of Russian Athletes are dopers like the vast majority of American ones aren't. Sure if a Russian athlete fits the profile of other Russian doper I'll be suspicious, likewise an American but I won't assume that in a nation of 130 Million+ that they are all doping however common it might be.


So you don't think there is anything organised going on, that it is just individuals chosing to dope? You just think it's coincidental that a large number of Russians over various sports are failing tests? That whole training camps are failing tests for using someone elses samples - Soboleva, Fomenko, Tomashove etc - that others have been accused of gene doping?

This newspaper article summed it up nicely:

The number of suspensions, and the varied events involved, raised troubling questions about possible ineptitude or corruption in Russian drug-testing procedures and also prompted concerns about whether a deliberate, systematic attempt was made by coaches or officials to undermine drug-testing protocols.
If the charges are substantiated, “it raises a flag as to some sort of organized initiative to evade detection,” said Dr. Gary I. Wadler, a professor of medicine at New York University who helped develop screening protocols for the World Anti-Doping Agency


All modern doping is organised, that's not quite the same as a whole country is doing it. The black scandal doesn't mean the whole of the USA is doping, nor does the fact UK cycling/team sky employing doctors with dodgy doping pasts nor using doper David Miller at last years Olympics mean Bradley Wiggins, Chris Hoy, Victoria Pendleton and Laura Trott achieved success via doping
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