Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH!!!


Main message board: for the discussion of topical track & field items only.

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby batonless relay » Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:47 am

Fortius19 wrote:Although it aired on November 1st, was it run on April 1st?

Like today?

I thought, and still believe, the same thing. It's not like a wikipedia entry can't be faked.
batonless relay
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:40 am

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby user4 » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:35 am

18.99s wrote:
Marlow wrote:In the numbers you just made up.
Bolt is still hindered more - even in a tailwind - by his larger surface area, which has to push the resistant air-mass aside (the wind is still in his face 20mph when he's going 25mph, but the tailwind is only +5mph) But, as noted before, that larger surface area can also act like a sail and help him in a tailwind. Who knows how that all adds up.


The more sail-like athlete has a greater reduction of hindrance with a tailwind, even though they are still hindered more by air resistance than the more compact athletes.


can you please repeat that the other way around .
user4
 
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby rainy.here » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:37 pm

batonless relay wrote:
Fortius19 wrote:Although it aired on November 1st, was it run on April 1st?

Like today?

I thought, and still believe, the same thing. It's not like a wikipedia entry can't be faked.



It happened. I've seen the video of Gatlin's wind-boosted run.
rainy.here
 
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:05 pm

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby Marlow » Mon Apr 01, 2013 1:22 pm

rainy.here wrote:It happened. I've seen the video of Gatlin's wind-boosted run.

Me too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... Eyzc5KKj4E
:roll:
Marlow
 
Posts: 21130
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby nicest person ever » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:01 pm

Marlow wrote:But, as noted before, that larger surface area can also act like a sail and help him in a tailwind. Who knows how that all adds up.


No.

The larger his surface area the LESS it HELPS him, and the MORE it HURTS him, timewise, in his 100m running.

Think about it. The bigger his surface area is, the more severely wind resistance hinders him.

The only way having a bigger surface area would be able to HELP him would be if the tailwind was so strong that the tailwind wind speed was at a higher speed than Bolt's average running speed for the race. Like, if Bolt's average running speed for a 100m race is 10.3 m/s (100 meters divided by 9.7 seconds), then, in order for it to be a GOOD thing for his surface area to be as big as possible, there would need to be at least a 10.4 m/s tailwind in that race (which is an incredibly huge tailwind, which basically never happens in 99.9% of races).

If the tailwind is less than 10.4 m/s, like, if it's a 1 m/s tailwind, or 2.7 m/s tailwind, or 6.5m/s tailwind, or what have you, he is still being HURT by having a bigger surface area, NOT HELPED by it. Because, the overall direction of air pushing against his body for the race is gonna be the air pushing against the FRONT of his body, not the BACK of his body, due to his avg running speed for the race as a whole being higher than the avg tailwind speed for the race as a whole. You see what I'm saying right?

Here, let's use a severely exaggerated example to prove this extra hardcorishly:

Okay, let's say you take a little 50cc engine go-kart, and let's say it has a drag-limited top speed of 30 mph, in it's normal, unmodified form. So, let's say this go kart, in a zero-wind race, is able to do the 100m dash in 9.50 seconds. And if it has a 2.0 m/s tailwind it does it in 9.40 seconds, and if it has a 2.0 m/s headwind it does it in 9.62 seconds (so, it goes 0.1 seconds faster when there is a 2 m/s tailwind, and it goes 0.12 seconds slower when there is a 2 m/s headwind).

But now, let's say you mount an enormous 10 foot by 10 styrofoam foot poster-board onto it, so now it has an enormous surface area. And now, let's say as a result of adding this giant surface area to it, the effect of wind resistance is obviously drastically increased as a result of that, so now it has a new drag limited top speed of just 15 mph instead of 30 mph. And now it does the 100m dash in 19 seconds instead of 9.5 seconds as a result of this-
(CONTINUED BELOW)
nicest person ever
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:14 pm

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby nicest person ever » Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:01 pm

(CONTINUED FROM ABOVE)
-And now, with this now huge surface area from the 10foot x 10 foot poster board mounted on it, let's say you run it in a 100m race, and there is a 2.0 m/s tailwind. Okay, so now it might do it in 15 seconds instead of 19 seconds, as a result of that tailwind reducing the amount of wind resistance it endures during the race, BUT, that 15 second result is still wayyyyy slower than the 9.5 second result that it was able to do without even ANY tailwind at all, back before it had its surface area increased. Do you see? The only way it would IMPROVE its race time to have this incrased surface area from the poster board mounted on it would be if the taiwlind was so high that it was faster than the avg race speed (of around 10.5 m/s) that it had when it was running 9.50 second 100m dashes in zero wind, if the wind speed was higher than that 10.5 m/s figure, then yes, it would improve its times to add the poster board, since then the air would be pushing it from behind, rather than pushing INTO its front.

So yea, basically: if bolt could magically reduce his surface area somehow, like, be squished by a huge vise of some sort to be razor thin when you are looking at him from the front, and not be injured/killed by this somehow, this would IMPROVE his race times, not slow them down, even in races with tailwinds, with the only exception being races where the tailwind is so extreme that it is faster than his average running speed over the course of his 100m run.
nicest person ever
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:14 pm

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby 18.99s » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:18 pm

nicest person ever wrote:The larger his surface area the LESS it HELPS him, and the MORE it HURTS him, timewise, in his 100m running.


That is true if you're comparing to zero air resistance.

But the "basic" time is about what they would run with a zero wind velocity, not the time with zero wind resistance. We agree that the zero wind has an inbuilt component of air resistance, generated by the sprinter's own motion.

Since the goal of "basic" time calculations is to figure out what each sprinter's time would be with zero wind, the relevant concern is the difference in sprint speed caused by the delta of air resistance between zero to nonzero wind.

Consider the stick-figure sprinter, thinner than a human hair but with the same mass and power as grown man. Air resistance on him is negligible; whether the wind is -4 m/s, 0, or +4m/s it doesn't affect him enough to change the time on the clock.

Now consider the sprinter with a wide sail-like body. Even when the wind is zero, he has considerable air resistance. Change the wind to +4m/s, and he has a big reduction in air resistance, giving him a bigger improvement in sprint speed than stick-figure man whose air resistance is practically zero regardless of the wind.

Think about it in terms of added weight instead of air resistance. Suppose there was a rule that said each sprinter must carry a backpack that weighs 1 pound for every inch of height above 5 feet. So Bolt ends up carrying more than just about everybody else. Then one day they change the rule, cutting it in half to 8 ounces per inch. Even though Bolt would still be carrying more than his competitors, he'd get a greater benefit from that rule change than others who are carrying less.

So yea, basically: if bolt could magically reduce his surface area somehow, like, be squished by a huge vise of some sort to be razor thin when you are looking at him from the front, and not be injured/killed by this somehow, this would IMPROVE his race times, not slow them down, even in races with tailwinds, with the only exception being races where the tailwind is so extreme that it is faster than his average running speed over the course of his 100m run.

Yes, but with that razor-thin body, he doesn't see an improvement in time when the wind goes from -4 to 0 to +4, because the wind doesn't affect him either way.
18.99s
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:28 am

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby lonewolf » Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:23 pm

Figures lie and liars figure.. or is it the other way around?
You can hypothesize till kingdom come about the precise relative effect of a tailwind or headwind on athletes of different body types but, fact is, it is irrelevant to the results of a particular race.
First guy past the post wins.
lonewolf
 
Posts: 8816
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Indian Territory

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby rainy.here » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:13 pm

lonewolf wrote:Figures lie and liars figure.. or is it the other way around?
You can hypothesize till kingdom come about the precise relative effect of a tailwind or headwind on athletes of different body types but, fact is, it is irrelevant to the results of a particular race.
First guy past the post wins.


I tend to agree. I think JRM's calculator does a fantastic job for moderate winds. I don't know one way or the other how well it does for significant wind readings.

A very good sprint coach always prefers to compare a runner to the well-known athletes in the same race. This takes the focus away from 1 factor (wind) - even though wind is important it's not the only thing that will change a runner's time.
rainy.here
 
Posts: 600
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:05 pm

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby nicest person ever » Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:47 pm

Yea, 18.99s, I already understood all of that stuff. I am well aware that, SINCE Bolt happens to be as fast as he is in SPITE of him having more air resistance than the other guys, then, given that situation already being at hand of him having to deal with having more wind resistance to begin with in the first place, then, given that, yes obv his times will tend to improve by a greater amount per tailwind/be hindered by a greater amount per headwind, compared to the smaller guys per equal tailwind/headwind given the current situation at hand as it already is. As in, it isn't that it is literally a good thing for him to have a larger surface area, like, if he could get Harry Potter to wave a magic wand and make his surface area be the same as Trindon Holliday's surface area, obviously he would snatch up that offer in a heartbeat, and, although the performance-delta would be smaller from that point on, when he got a tailwind, he would still be faster overall, since, his zero-wind performance would be so much faster cuz of the decreased surface area wind resistence issue, that even if now his improvement delta for a 2 m/s tailwind might only be 75% as big, his overall times would still be faster anyway, because his zero-wind time that he's beginning with would be improved b like 10 times the amount of the delta-play at work. But like, SINCE he already has that bigger surface area, but is as fast as he is in spite of it, then, given what his current surface area happens to be, then GIVEN that, yea, a guy with his body will have a great performance delta from a tailwind than an equal tailwind on a smaller guy (but it still not being a GOOD thing that he has that extra surface area to begin with, rather, it's like SINCE he happens to (unfortunately), then, GIVEN that, then his relative improvement amount per tailwind is greater, given the given). Sigh, I'm saying the word given way too much lol, but hopefully you get what I mean.

Basically we already were/are in total agreement. Even Marlow probably was too, but just worded the that sentence of his that I quoted in an awkward way that I took issue with. He probably meant to say the thing you were saying that I am replying to right now.

So yea, basically we are in agreement
nicest person ever
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:14 pm

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby fourjz » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:37 pm

It means nothing in regards to what Patton will be running in August.It's the Texas Relays !! People always run fast times at Texas Relays mostly wind-aided. :lol:
fourjz
 
Posts: 453
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 11:08 am
Location: Southern California

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby mal » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:00 pm

lonewolf wrote:Figures lie and liars figure.. or is it the other way around?
You can hypothesize till kingdom come about the precise relative effect of a tailwind or headwind on athletes of different body types but, fact is, it is irrelevant to the results of a particular race.
First guy past the post wins.


Yep. And know one cares if you are the oldest fast guy, or the thinnest or tallest. Or the fattest fastest.
mal
 
Posts: 970
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby gh » Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:30 am

Marlow wrote:......
Has there ever been a wind-aided indoor mark? I know there are some venues where you can open big doors on both sides to create a draft.


When they opened doors the right way in ABQ the last two years, there were moments when there was enough wind to blow papers off the announcer's table at trackside.... but I doubt it would have been strong enough to make a significant reading on the sprint straight.

Back in the day when the Astrodome had its monster 352y track there was talk of the AC making notable air movement, but I was never there to experience it first-hand, so it may just have been talk.
gh
 
Posts: 46335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Doc Patton runs 9.75 (+4.3w) converts to 9.93! In MARCH

Postby nicest person ever » Wed Apr 03, 2013 1:25 pm

Yea, I know what you guys mean... I remember one time at an indoor meet this really huge shot putter guy was walking around holding his belly kind of groaning in discomfort and whatnot, with his back facing the 60m starting blocks of a race that was about to start, and suddenly right as the gun goes off the dude unleashes the most monstrously powerful fart. Everyone in the race P.R.'d. 8-)
nicest person ever
 
Posts: 778
Joined: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:14 pm

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 21 guests