Çakır-Alptekin positive? [second scandal erupts]


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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:25 pm

Even the four year punishment was arbitrary and capricious based on the 2001 "positive test".
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby ldnbloke » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:46 pm

Blues wrote:Additionally, Gatlin stated that there were no declaration forms at the USATF Junior Championships in 2001 where he tested positive for amphetamine

If that's correct then why were they even conducting the tests? How many athletes failed tests for Salbutamol etc then? Hard to believe at the whole champ not one athlete had asthma!
BLR and USA have the weirdest doping/antidoping stories to tell...
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:52 pm

gh wrote:of course you do.... if you accept it as a fraud (which it was), then there is zero grounds for the life ban you seem to think he should have had. (without getting into whether or not one believes that even a first-time offense should draw life, but that's a different kettle of fish)


He tested positive and accepted whatever sanction was imposed with the understanding that it counted as a first failure and any subsequent ones would mean a life ban, I honestly don't care about the minutiae. There are lots of athletes in the same circumstances who have minor bans for stimulants, recreational drugs etc etc. It's a lesson and you move on ad be more careful in the future. Knowing his situation he chose the most notorious coach in track and the behaviours that went along with it.

Everyone knows i'm a massive fan of TBO and have much sympathy for her missed tests situation but she was rightly banned and if she ever tests positive for a steroid they can throw the book at her as far as i'm concerned. The same stands for Justin Gatlin and anyone else in their situation, if you inadvertently get sanctioned once you better make sure you never chose the PED route in the future as you know what will happen.

No matter the rights and wrongs of amphetamine use, not signing he right forms, being badly advised etc etc it is all irrelevant to the choice he made 5 years later being fully aware of the consequences.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Tue Mar 26, 2013 7:06 pm

One reason civilized nations have a checks & balances legal system is to protect people from their own stupidity.
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Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby bobguild76 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:39 pm

This is a great discussion ... I don't think anyone wants to make light of Gatlin's 2006 PED use. It seems the major point in dispute has to do with the human element in this process. And in my opinion there must be a human element when it comes to the sentence. Otherwise, why even have a CAS? We would simply take the lab results, go to the appropriate sanctions chart, and notify the athlete in question of his/her sentence. And in most cases, the sentencing authority does just that.

But there should always be an avenue of appeal. That is where trust comes in ... trust in the process and trust in the people who make the process work. Much has been made of the 2001 warning to Gatlin that any future PED use would be considered a second offense. But the folks who heard his 2006 appeal were aware of the 2001 warning, yet still chose to make his '06 penalty a 4 year ban. They considered the facts of the case, and made a decision that was within their scope of authority to make.

We may disagree on the wisdom of that decision. But no one subverted the process. The folks who made this decision weren't babes in the woods. I may disagree with their judgement, but I acknowledge their authority to make that judgement.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:01 pm

mump boy wrote:
gh wrote:of course you do.... if you accept it as a fraud (which it was), then there is zero grounds for the life ban you seem to think he should have had. (without getting into whether or not one believes that even a first-time offense should draw life, but that's a different kettle of fish)


He tested positive and accepted whatever sanction was imposed with the understanding that it counted as a first failure and any subsequent ones would mean a life ban, I honestly don't care about the minutiae. There are lots of athletes in the same circumstances who have minor bans for stimulants, recreational drugs etc etc. It's a lesson and you move on ad be more careful in the future. Knowing his situation he chose the most notorious coach in track and the behaviours that went along with it.

Everyone knows i'm a massive fan of TBO and have much sympathy for her missed tests situation but she was rightly banned and if she ever tests positive for a steroid they can throw the book at her as far as i'm concerned. The same stands for Justin Gatlin and anyone else in their situation, if you inadvertently get sanctioned once you better make sure you never chose the PED route in the future as you know what will happen.

No matter the rights and wrongs of amphetamine use, not signing he right forms, being badly advised etc etc it is all irrelevant to the choice he made 5 years later being fully aware of the consequences.


Prior to joining him was Trevor Graham known as the coach of drug cheats?

In a similar way does Christine Ohuruoghu not deserve more criticism for having a coach who has other doping banned athletes?

While I'm convinced Gatlin is a drug cheat, he is also one of those cases where there is a small percentage of doubt in me that accepts it is perfectly possible he could have been that stupid. Don't get me wrong I wish Gatlin was banned for longer, more of his record wiped off the stats sheet and he was gone now, however given humans are flawed, stupid and can be stitched up I always accept such cases must be given due process to be examined and the individual circumstances looked at.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby lionelp1 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:27 am

mump boy wrote:
gh wrote:of course you do.... if you accept it as a fraud (which it was), then there is zero grounds for the life ban you seem to think he should have had. (without getting into whether or not one believes that even a first-time offense should draw life, but that's a different kettle of fish)


He tested positive and accepted whatever sanction was imposed with the understanding that it counted as a first failure and any subsequent ones would mean a life ban, I honestly don't care about the minutiae. There are lots of athletes in the same circumstances who have minor bans for stimulants, recreational drugs etc etc. It's a lesson and you move on ad be more careful in the future. Knowing his situation he chose the most notorious coach in track and the behaviours that went along with it.

Everyone knows i'm a massive fan of TBO and have much sympathy for her missed tests situation but she was rightly banned and if she ever tests positive for a steroid they can throw the book at her as far as i'm concerned. The same stands for Justin Gatlin and anyone else in their situation, if you inadvertently get sanctioned once you better make sure you never chose the PED route in the future as you know what will happen.

No matter the rights and wrongs of amphetamine use, not signing he right forms, being badly advised etc etc it is all irrelevant to the choice he made 5 years later being fully aware of the consequences.


I agree with Mumps post heartily. For me the absolute minimum punishment for Gatlin should have been 8 years. The fact is that the due process stuff is as often as not a pile of "fancy dancing" by lawyers for whom I have a healthy scepticism, bordering on contempt.We have no right to hide behind naivety, once we grow up

I do not believe the treatment Gatlin received after his second offense was unrelated to his status as an OG champion.

Not quite clear what "civilised nations " definition is and but that statement and other comments on this thread are "red herrings"; especially the usual veiled or open attack on Ohuruogu who was foolish and rightly punished( I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!), but in no way can be compared to the warning issued by IAAF followed by further cheating on the part of Gatlin..

All the stuff one reads about other peoples mistakes, or intent or "co-operated" with the appropriate athletics authorities is "bull" for me.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:12 am

eldanielfire wrote:
Prior to joining him was Trevor Graham known as the coach of drug cheats?


I don't know when Gatlin joined him but by the time he was busted for a 2nd time everybody knew Graham as the coach of drug cheats.

eldanielfire wrote:In a similar way does Christine Ohuruoghu not deserve more criticism for having a coach who has other doping banned athletes?


That's like comparing Marion Jones to Bernice Williams.
Last edited by Flumpy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:19 am

lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:37 am

Prior to joining him was Trevor Graham known as the coach of drug cheats?


YES his athletes has been failing tests since 2000 and the Balco scandal which he was up to his neck in was from 03'/04 Gatlin was one of the last of his athletes to be caught.

In a similar way does Christine Ohuruoghu not deserve more criticism for having a coach who has other doping banned athletes?


Treveor GRaham had at least 8 athletes banned for drugs as well as tons of other evidence and testimony against him, including him being the one who sent a syringe of 'the clear' to authorities to implicate Conte. Lloyd, has one who was banned in very dubious circumstances http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callum_Priestley there is absolutely no comparison so stop trying to make one.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby HopStepJump » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:37 am

Flumpy wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.


Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:42 am

Why do you continuously make excuses for Ottey and Ohuruogu, but take such a hard line on other dopers, mump?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:01 am

HopStepJump wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.


Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.


They are different systems. I'm pretty certain that in the US if a tester turns up and the athlete is not there they are called and given an hour to arrive. That doesn't happen in the UK.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:12 am

JumboElliott wrote:Why do you continuously make excuses for Ottey and Ohuruogu, but take such a hard line on other dopers, mump?


Firstly and formost because neither then have ever tested positive but they are TOTALLY different cases

I've never made an excuse for Merlene, there's nothing to excuse. I've never said i agree with what officially didn't happen. I admit i have a blind spot for Merlene, she was my favourite athlete from around 1985, I LOVE her. The glamour, the drama, the wins the loses. I'm a gay and she tragic diva like Judy Garland. I can't give up on 15 years of obsession because she officially didn't fail a test. It's as if Flump got prosecuted for murder and got off on a technicality, i wouldn't approve but i'd still love him. The other thing in Merlene's favour is that her 'failed' test was for Nandrolone, nobody got to the bottom of it but there was definitely something odd about the spate of Nadrolone positives in the late 90's.If she had been banned then of course i would have to put personal feelings aside and no matter i could no longer hold her in such reverence. I don't pretend this is a consistant position but it absolutely consistant with this boards rules that you are innocent unless convicted of an offence.

As for TBO without going into the whole sorry saga, she never tested positive, was caught out by a new system that none of the athletes properly understood, there were loads of athletes on 2 missed tests and she was the unlucky one who got to 3 first. It could quite easily have been Becky Lynn or Mark Lewis Francis who had publically stated that they were on 2. One of MLF's was because his doorbell was broken so he didn't hear the testers and they won't phone to let you know they're waiting. At the time we had a system that was the most prohibitive in the world and Christine's mistake was the catalyst for all the other athletes to take it seriously and the authorities to actually make sure everyone is fully aware of the procedures not just sending out a letter and hoping that everyone has read it. There haven't been 3 missed tests since

Of course my opinion on this matter is coloured by the fact i come from the UK if she had been from BLR, TUR or US i probably would feel very differently.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby batonless relay » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:13 am

Flumpy wrote:
HopStepJump wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.


Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.


They are different systems. I'm pretty certain that in the US if a tester turns up and the athlete is not there they are called and given an hour to arrive. That doesn't happen in the UK.

All cheats have an excuse but it tells us nothing of why they really missed the tests. It is at least possible that she missed the tests because she felt that she would test positive. No different than other athletes who purposely dodge tests.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby batonless relay » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:18 am

mump boy wrote:Of course my opinion on this matter is coloured by the fact i come from the UK if she had been from BLR, TUR or US i probably would feel very differently.

Thanks for that honest admission. However, you might need to read gh's comments on the Ottey affair and her getting off on the one of the most egregious of technicalities (debatable if more so than Yegorova).
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby HopStepJump » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:19 am

Flumpy wrote:
HopStepJump wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:I have not ever heard of any USA athlete who has broken the rule about 3 missed tests amongst such a large number of athletes!)


That's because any US athlete in the same position would be called and given notice so they had time to switch urine before going back to do the test.


Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.


They are different systems. I'm pretty certain that in the US if a tester turns up and the athlete is not there they are called and given an hour to arrive. That doesn't happen in the UK.


Well, you encouraged me to go check. I found this on USADA's site.

http://www.usada.org/whereabouts/

The way I read it, the athlete is responsible for being at the location for the entire 60-minute window. I don't see any leeway in that hour or where they would be given a chance to show up if they weren't there. At any rate, it shouldn't be too hard to comply with this for any athlete.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby peach77 » Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:39 am

batonless relay wrote:Thanks for that honest admission. However, you might need to read gh's comments on the Ottey affair and her getting off on the one of the most egregious of technicalities (debatable if more so than Yegorova).


The thing is with the whole "Ottey" affair, is what mump explained earlier about the spate of nandrolone positives. Don't get me wrong, I truly believe she tested positive and I believe the IAAF letting her off was more about "who" she was than what actually happened- a total technicality. But I do not "swallow" (excuse the pun) the spate of nandrolone positives in that era- there appeared to be a definite link to something fishy going on at the time, what with the people who were testing positive and the circumstances. Nandrolone was one of the cheapest, easiest to detect drugs, athletes such as Christie who had "retired" and asked to be put back on the testing register for a one off race were testing positive for it- ridiculous he should attempt to taint his legacy for that. Not to mention that out of all the pre-random drug testing era top top sprinters, Ottey (along with Torrence, not counting the ageing Ashford) were about the only ones who didn't retire and maintained the same level of performance and were regular competitors on the circuit at a time when that didn't suggest someone who was a doper.

For those reasons alone, I treat Ottey's "positive" with serious suspicion...
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby norunner » Wed Mar 27, 2013 10:25 am

HopStepJump wrote:Or maybe keeping testers informed as to your whereabouts isn't really all that difficult, especially when your livelihood depends upon it.
I often wondered about that. How do you input your current whereabouts in countries/cities without street names? I have been to Lilongwe/Malawi, so i know how difficult it is to navigate a city without street names and i know there are others like it around the world, Tokyo the biggest among them. So how does the control system work in places like these?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:10 am

batonless relay wrote:
mump boy wrote:Of course my opinion on this matter is coloured by the fact i come from the UK if she had been from BLR, TUR or US i probably would feel very differently.

Thanks for that honest admission. However, you might need to read gh's comments on the Ottey affair and her getting off on the one of the most egregious of technicalities (debatable if more so than Yegorova).


I've read it, i understand the situation, I am still unashamedly a MASSIVE fan of The Queen. I've never defended her, it doesn't really make any difference

"It's beyond my control'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjUmvHBgHr0
It's
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:21 am

HopStepJump wrote: At any rate, it shouldn't be too hard to comply with this for any athlete.


Which is why no one has missed 3 since but it took the massive publicity surrounding TBO for everyone else to be fully aware of the new, strict procedures.

I can assure you there would have been a far more sympathetic coverage from the media if it had been Becky Lynn who's missed them than the incredibly ill advised, inarticulate (at the time) Ohorougu
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:24 am

peach77 wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Thanks for that honest admission. However, you might need to read gh's comments on the Ottey affair and her getting off on the one of the most egregious of technicalities (debatable if more so than Yegorova).


The thing is with the whole "Ottey" affair, is what mump explained earlier about the spate of nandrolone positives. Don't get me wrong, I truly believe she tested positive and I believe the IAAF letting her off was more about "who" she was than what actually happened- a total technicality. But I do not "swallow" (excuse the pun) the spate of nandrolone positives in that era- there appeared to be a definite link to something fishy going on at the time, what with the people who were testing positive and the circumstances. Nandrolone was one of the cheapest, easiest to detect drugs, athletes such as Christie who had "retired" and asked to be put back on the testing register for a one off race were testing positive for it- ridiculous he should attempt to taint his legacy for that. Not to mention that out of all the pre-random drug testing era top top sprinters, Ottey (along with Torrence, not counting the ageing Ashford) were about the only ones who didn't retire and maintained the same level of performance and were regular competitors on the circuit at a time when that didn't suggest someone who was a doper.

For those reasons alone, I treat Ottey's "positive" with serious suspicion...


All of this ^^

I'm very consistent on Nandrolone positives, if Gatlin had tested positive between 98'-01 i'd be giving him the benefit of he doubt as well.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:43 am

batonless relay wrote:All cheats have an excuse but it tells us nothing of why they really missed the tests. It is at least possible that she missed the tests because she felt that she would test positive. No different than other athletes who purposely dodge tests.


No it isn't. Please go and read the facts about what happened. There is no suggestion that she 'purposefully dodged tests' which of course is impossible to do when you don't know they're coming.

At least I try to learn about cases before I offer opinions.

Pead ShaunP's post halfway down this page............

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... ine#383986
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:46 am

norunner wrote: So how does the control system work in places like these?


I don't think it does.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:51 am

HopStepJump wrote:
Well, you encouraged me to go check. I found this on USADA's site.

http://www.usada.org/whereabouts/

The way I read it, the athlete is responsible for being at the location for the entire 60-minute window. I don't see any leeway in that hour or where they would be given a chance to show up if they weren't there. At any rate, it shouldn't be too hard to comply with this for any athlete.


That may be the case now but if so it's a relatively recent thing.

At the time of TBO's missed tests The rules were definitely different in the UK from the US. The general cry on this forum tended to be that she had obviously missed the tests on purpose or else she would have simply returned when called. We kept having to explain that is she was American she could have done so, but was not given that chance in the UK.

If the rules have since been tightened up in the US then that's a very good thing.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:51 am

Flumpy wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Prior to joining him was Trevor Graham known as the coach of drug cheats?


I don't know when Gatlin joined him but by the time he was busted for a 2nd time everybody knew Graham as the coach of drug cheats.

eldanielfire wrote:In a similar way does Christine Ohuruoghu not deserve more criticism for having a coach who has other doping banned athletes?


That's like comparing Marion Jones to Bernice Williams.


mump boy wrote:
Prior to joining him was Trevor Graham known as the coach of drug cheats?


YES his athletes has been failing tests since 2000 and the Balco scandal which he was up to his neck in was from 03'/04 Gatlin was one of the last of his athletes to be caught.

In a similar way does Christine Ohuruoghu not deserve more criticism for having a coach who has other doping banned athletes?


Treveor GRaham had at least 8 athletes banned for drugs as well as tons of other evidence and testimony against him, including him being the one who sent a syringe of 'the clear' to authorities to implicate Conte. Lloyd, has one who was banned in very dubious circumstances http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callum_Priestley there is absolutely no comparison so stop trying to make one.


Don't be precious you too. There clearly is a comparision to make of their situations; Dope associated athletes with coaches who have other athletes who have doped. Don't be silly because you don't want to hear it, the shear number of dopers involved is irrelevant as I'm not comparing the scale of the issues. They are perfectly comparable, that doesn't mean they are exactly the same situations.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:54 am

They are not even remotely comparable. But then you know that already.

I really don't know why I bother responding to you.
Last edited by Flumpy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:56 am

mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Why do you continuously make excuses for Ottey and Ohuruogu, but take such a hard line on other dopers, mump?


Firstly and formost because neither then have ever tested positive but they are TOTALLY different cases

I've never made an excuse for Merlene, there's nothing to excuse. I've never said i agree with what officially didn't happen. I admit i have a blind spot for Merlene, she was my favourite athlete from around 1985, I LOVE her. The glamour, the drama, the wins the loses. I'm a gay and she tragic diva like Judy Garland. I can't give up on 15 years of obsession because she officially didn't fail a test. It's as if Flump got prosecuted for murder and got off on a technicality, i wouldn't approve but i'd still love him. The other thing in Merlene's favour is that her 'failed' test was for Nandrolone, nobody got to the bottom of it but there was definitely something odd about the spate of Nadrolone positives in the late 90's.If she had been banned then of course i would have to put personal feelings aside and no matter i could no longer hold her in such reverence. I don't pretend this is a consistant position but it absolutely consistant with this boards rules that you are innocent unless convicted of an offence.


This ignores the fact she only got off on a technicality and then went to a coach who we now know was getting doping tops from another.....


As for TBO without going into the whole sorry saga, she never tested positive, was caught out by a new system that none of the athletes properly understood, there were loads of athletes on 2 missed tests and she was the unlucky one who got to 3 first. It could quite easily have been Becky Lynn or Mark Lewis Francis who had publically stated that they were on 2. One of MLF's was because his doorbell was broken so he didn't hear the testers and they won't phone to let you know they're waiting. At the time we had a system that was the most prohibitive in the world and Christine's mistake was the catalyst for all the other athletes to take it seriously and the authorities to actually make sure everyone is fully aware of the procedures not just sending out a letter and hoping that everyone has read it. There haven't been 3 missed tests since

Of course my opinion on this matter is coloured by the fact i come from the UK if she had been from BLR, TUR or US i probably would feel very differently.


Which is why in some debates you have to accept valid points when people make logical or reasonable statements. Ohuruoghu is one of my favourite all time athletes, I don't for a second think she has ever doped and is especially confident seeing as she took the test straight after missing it and the circumstances were terrible. However that doesn't mean her circumstances are void in discussion nor does it mean being a fan excuses rational debate on a message board.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:04 pm

But it does mean that when discussing the case people should at least try and understand the facts surrounding it.

Nobody is suggesting the situation shouldn't be discussed, but 7 years later when people are still getting the most basic facts wrong it's very hard to have a 'rational debate' .
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:21 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Why do you continuously make excuses for Ottey and Ohuruogu, but take such a hard line on other dopers, mump?


Firstly and formost because neither then have ever tested positive but they are TOTALLY different cases

I've never made an excuse for Merlene, there's nothing to excuse. I've never said i agree with what officially didn't happen. I admit i have a blind spot for Merlene, she was my favourite athlete from around 1985, I LOVE her. The glamour, the drama, the wins the loses. I'm a gay and she tragic diva like Judy Garland. I can't give up on 15 years of obsession because she officially didn't fail a test. It's as if Flump got prosecuted for murder and got off on a technicality, i wouldn't approve but i'd still love him. The other thing in Merlene's favour is that her 'failed' test was for Nandrolone, nobody got to the bottom of it but there was definitely something odd about the spate of Nadrolone positives in the late 90's.If she had been banned then of course i would have to put personal feelings aside and no matter i could no longer hold her in such reverence. I don't pretend this is a consistant position but it absolutely consistant with this boards rules that you are innocent unless convicted of an offence.


This ignores the fact she only got off on a technicality and then went to a coach who we now know was getting doping tops from another.....


It doesn't ignore that fact !! it explicitly includes that fact :?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby tandfman » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:58 pm

On the front page, there's a link to a Q&A with Canadian Hilary Stellingwerff, who was in the same semi as Çakır-Alptekin in the London Olympics. Stellingwerff just missed making the final. Asked how she felt about things now, she was very careful to point out that Çakır-Alptekin has not been found to have committed a doping violation. I give this athlete a lot of credit for mentioning this before making any other comment about her situation.

The writer of the headline over that story, of course, leapt to the conclusion that Stellingwerff had been robbed of a place in the final by a doping runner. (To be sure, that may very well turn out to be the case, but as of now, the matter is still under review.)
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:05 pm

Flumpy wrote:But it does mean that when discussing the case people should at least try and understand the facts surrounding it.

Nobody is suggesting the situation shouldn't be discussed, but 7 years later when people are still getting the most basic facts wrong it's very hard to have a 'rational debate' .


Isn't this rather reflective of you and one or two athletes from the other direction?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:10 pm

mump boy wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Why do you continuously make excuses for Ottey and Ohuruogu, but take such a hard line on other dopers, mump?


Firstly and formost because neither then have ever tested positive but they are TOTALLY different cases

I've never made an excuse for Merlene, there's nothing to excuse. I've never said i agree with what officially didn't happen. I admit i have a blind spot for Merlene, she was my favourite athlete from around 1985, I LOVE her. The glamour, the drama, the wins the loses. I'm a gay and she tragic diva like Judy Garland. I can't give up on 15 years of obsession because she officially didn't fail a test. It's as if Flump got prosecuted for murder and got off on a technicality, i wouldn't approve but i'd still love him. The other thing in Merlene's favour is that her 'failed' test was for Nandrolone, nobody got to the bottom of it but there was definitely something odd about the spate of Nadrolone positives in the late 90's.If she had been banned then of course i would have to put personal feelings aside and no matter i could no longer hold her in such reverence. I don't pretend this is a consistant position but it absolutely consistant with this boards rules that you are innocent unless convicted of an offence.


This ignores the fact she only got off on a technicality and then went to a coach who we now know was getting doping tops from another.....


It doesn't ignore that fact !! it explicitly includes that fact :?


It is ignoring it. Acknowledging something exists while constantly circumventing it in your reasoning or approach is ignoring it. To ignore something you must be aware of it. You ruthlessly judge other athletes even unreasonably in doping but you specifically ignore it on your judgements on Ottey and start bringing up the drug she failed a test on was being failed by other athletes and so therefore is an excuse to reduce the suspicion.

If it isn't specific or selective ignoring of the fact even if you know of them, then it's certainly denial.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:21 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
Flumpy wrote:But it does mean that when discussing the case people should at least try and understand the facts surrounding it.

Nobody is suggesting the situation shouldn't be discussed, but 7 years later when people are still getting the most basic facts wrong it's very hard to have a 'rational debate' .


Isn't this rather reflective of you and one or two athletes from the other direction?


I have absolutely no idea what that means :?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:05 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
mump boy wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
mump boy wrote:
Firstly and formost because neither then have ever tested positive but they are TOTALLY different cases

I've never made an excuse for Merlene, there's nothing to excuse. I've never said i agree with what officially didn't happen. I admit i have a blind spot for Merlene, she was my favourite athlete from around 1985, I LOVE her. The glamour, the drama, the wins the loses. I'm a gay and she tragic diva like Judy Garland. I can't give up on 15 years of obsession because she officially didn't fail a test. It's as if Flump got prosecuted for murder and got off on a technicality, i wouldn't approve but i'd still love him. The other thing in Merlene's favour is that her 'failed' test was for Nandrolone, nobody got to the bottom of it but there was definitely something odd about the spate of Nadrolone positives in the late 90's.If she had been banned then of course i would have to put personal feelings aside and no matter i could no longer hold her in such reverence. I don't pretend this is a consistant position but it absolutely consistant with this boards rules that you are innocent unless convicted of an offence.


This ignores the fact she only got off on a technicality and then went to a coach who we now know was getting doping tops from another.....


It doesn't ignore that fact !! it explicitly includes that fact :?


It is ignoring it. Acknowledging something exists while constantly circumventing it in your reasoning or approach is ignoring it. To ignore something you must be aware of it. You ruthlessly judge other athletes even unreasonably in doping but you specifically ignore it on your judgements on Ottey and start bringing up the drug she failed a test on was being failed by other athletes and so therefore is an excuse to reduce the suspicion.

If it isn't specific or selective ignoring of the fact even if you know of them, then it's certainly denial.


Maybe you have trouble reading or understanding simple english. So i'm not going to bother engaging anymore
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:04 pm

mump boy wrote:
Maybe you have trouble reading or understanding simple english. So i'm not going to bother engaging anymore


Ignoring something means acknowledging it and acting in a way that doesn't. Acknowledging something doesn't mean you aren't ignoring it, despite the common perception.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:05 pm

Flumpy wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
Flumpy wrote:But it does mean that when discussing the case people should at least try and understand the facts surrounding it.

Nobody is suggesting the situation shouldn't be discussed, but 7 years later when people are still getting the most basic facts wrong it's very hard to have a 'rational debate' .


Isn't this rather reflective of you and one or two athletes from the other direction?


I have absolutely no idea what that means :?


Your inability to accept facts about certain of your favourite athletes.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby iain » Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:53 am

Eldanielfire, did you actually bother reading the post you are attacking?
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Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby bobguild76 » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:50 am

Yikes! I think mump boy and others have said it well in that (I am paraphrasing): most of us try to get the facts right in each case (clarity first, then opinion), we all are affected by whether we like the particular athlete in question (which may affect how we interpret the facts of each case), and we have differing views regarding 1st & 2nd offenses, what is or isn't a PED, etc.

But gh also said it well when he reminded us (I am again paraphrasing) that we have procedures and people in place to investigate and then adjudicate each situation. For me, the bottom line is this:

1. We have the system,
2. We have good people in place,
3. They have the authority to make appropriate decisions.

I hate the ongoing stain of PED use on the sport. This forum shows that we are all deeply offended by those (athletes, coaches, agents) who would cheat for glory. We are particularly galled by the fact that those who train and compete fairly don't always get a chance after the fact to receive the glory that should have been theirs. How I would have loved to see a jubilant Valerie Adams in London, whooping it up before thousands after a gold medal performance! She'll never get that ... maybe in Rio? :-)

But I'll take the passion and back & forth displayed on these pages over any other sport I know. T&F remains the purest of all sports, which is why we are so passionate about keeping it clean.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:12 pm

bobguild76 wrote:But I'll take the passion and back & forth displayed on these pages over any other sport I know. T&F remains the purest of all sports, which is why we are so passionate about keeping it clean.


:D :D :D
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