new HS boys mile leader


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new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:51 am

At his sub-conference meet yesterday:

4:04.45m (4:05.87+) for Andres Arroyo (Colonial, Orlando, Fl).

(58, 60, 63, 63; pre-race strategy was to run four 61s, but got
excited as was trying to run race before impending thunderstorm)
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Marlow » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:05 am

Those precocious Florida preps! Boys Leaderboard as of today (sorry for the funky format)

1,600 4:04.45
100 10.15w
110 Hurdles 13.89
200 20.63w
300 Hurdles 37.75
3,200 9:16.73
400 47.01
4x400 3:19.10
4x800 7:56.68
800 1:55.58
Discus 178-6
High Jump 6-10
Long Jump 23-8
Pole Vault 15-6
Shot Put 60-1
Triple Jump 52-1
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Master Po » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:38 am

I see from perusing Arroyo's stats here,

http://fl.milesplit.com/athletes/969654-andres-arroyo

that he has a 49.09 400m PB. I don't have a data set at hand of 400m bests for prep milers, but, off the top of my head, that seems pretty good.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Marlow » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:45 am

Master Po wrote:I see from perusing Arroyo's stats here,
http://fl.milesplit.com/athletes/969654-andres-arroyo
that he has a 49.09 400m PB. I don't have a data set at hand of 400m bests for prep milers, but, off the top of my head, that seems pretty good.

If you're close to 4 for the mile . . . sorry . . . 1600, I'd imagine it would be hard not to be a 1:55 800 guy and if you can run that, you should be able to drop a sub-50 for a single 400.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Master Po » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:46 am

Marlow wrote:
Master Po wrote:I see from perusing Arroyo's stats here,
http://fl.milesplit.com/athletes/969654-andres-arroyo
that he has a 49.09 400m PB. I don't have a data set at hand of 400m bests for prep milers, but, off the top of my head, that seems pretty good.

If you're close to 4 for the mile . . . sorry . . . 1600, I'd imagine it would be hard not to be a 1:55 800 guy and if you can run that, you should be able to drop a sub-50 for a single 400.


Oh yes, I suppose so. So much for whatever insights are off the top of my head...
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby KevinM » Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:58 am

Marlow wrote:
Master Po wrote:I see from perusing Arroyo's stats here,
http://fl.milesplit.com/athletes/969654-andres-arroyo
that he has a 49.09 400m PB. I don't have a data set at hand of 400m bests for prep milers, but, off the top of my head, that seems pretty good.

If you're close to 4 for the mile . . . sorry . . . 1600, I'd imagine it would be hard not to be a 1:55 800 guy and if you can run that, you should be able to drop a sub-50 for a single 400.


I doubt a 4:05 guy with only 1:55 800 abilities is going to be sub-50 from the gun. I’d guess that a 4:05/49.x open guy is capable of 1:50-51.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby unclezadok » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:17 am

gh wrote:At his sub-conference meet yesterday:

4:04.45m (4:05.87+) for Andres Arroyo (Colonial, Orlando, Fl).

(58, 60, 63, 63; pre-race strategy was to run four 61s, but got
excited as was trying to run race before impending thunderstorm)


The thunderstorm would be a double incentive: (1) not to be struck by lighting; and (2) not to be pulled off track by officials concerned about him (and everybody) being struck by lightning.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gktrack » Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:52 am

He ran a 1:51 800 last year as a junior, #22 on the final 2012 US High School list... sounds promising
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Thu Mar 21, 2013 9:17 am

Marlow wrote:
Master Po wrote:I see from perusing Arroyo's stats here,
http://fl.milesplit.com/athletes/969654-andres-arroyo
that he has a 49.09 400m PB. I don't have a data set at hand of 400m bests for prep milers, but, off the top of my head, that seems pretty good.

If you're close to 4 for the mile . . . sorry . . . 1600, I'd imagine it would be hard not to be a 1:55 800 guy and if you can run that, you should be able to drop a sub-50 for a single 400.


I guess the name Gerry Lindgren doesn't ring a bell (4:01 as a prep, had trouble breaking 55, let alone 50).
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby kuha » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:13 am

But, of course, its safer to view Lindgren as the exception that proves every rule...
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Master Po » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:30 am

kuha wrote:But, of course, its safer to view Lindgren as the exception that proves every rule...


Yes. And perhaps the exception at the other end of this limited spectrum (fast prep milers) was Webb ... iirc he was discussed as having split 47.x in a 4x400. Assuming for a moment that reported performance was sort of accurate and more or less representative (in the context of it being a relay split) of Webb's 400m speed as a prep miler, I guess that might perhaps put Arroyo sort of in the middle of the range, which is about as precise as I need this discussion to be. :)

The milesplit link for Arroyo says he will attend U Florida. I hope he has a good outdoor season and wish him well as a collegiate runner.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:43 am

kuha wrote:But, of course, its safer to view Lindgren as the exception that proves every rule...


it is? why?
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby kuha » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:03 am

gh wrote:
kuha wrote:But, of course, its safer to view Lindgren as the exception that proves every rule...


it is? why?


Well, to start with, he was apparently training like a marathoner while in HS. We don't have to buy the 200 (or was it 300?) miles a week stuff to know that he wasn't training like a "typical" mile/2 mile runner of the period. Ergo, his half mile times (were there any?) and 440 times may not have much relevance to those of other milers of the time (or ever, perhaps).
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:08 am

Prodigious mileage and "marathon training" aren't necessarily the same thing. Having trained alongside him for several years I can assure you that he was doing the same intense short-interval workouts as all the other milers on the Washington State team. You've got to remember that this was the era where the dual meet was king in the Pac-8 and his focus for months was running mile/2M doubles against high-level opponents. He worked mightily at improving his speed.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:20 am

GL demonstrates that there will be a whole range. The runners do not come in discreet types for speed but have a continuous distribution. If GL is so far away from 50, then there are likely to be a number of 4:0x types that are between 50 and 50-high, even if they get 'thin' in the high range.

To indicate that 49 is not going to be typical let us look at Austin Mudd, who just got third at NCAAs while running 3:57.9 and who ran 1:47. He ran a PR (or at lest a SB) this year -- of 49.97. In fact, this would lead us to think that 49 is not only not typical of someone that runs 1:55 but that there might be none in the 4:05/1:55/49 set. Even using 1:51-52 this would indicate that 49 is tough.

... set personal bests in the 400 meters and 600 meters, finishing second in 49.97 seconds and fifth in 1:20.31
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby kuha » Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:56 am

gh wrote:Prodigious mileage and "marathon training" aren't necessarily the same thing. Having trained alongside him for several years I can assure you that he was doing the same intense short-interval workouts as all the other milers on the Washington State team. You've got to remember that this was the era where the dual meet was king in the Pac-8 and his focus for months was running mile/2M doubles against high-level opponents. He worked mightily at improving his speed.


Fair enough--that makes great sense, and you were there, I wasn't. My original reference was explicitly to his HS training, since I assumed that was the larger question. I would assume that his collegiate training was at least a bit more "standardized" than what he'd been doing as a prep. Do you not think that is true?
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:01 pm

kuha wrote:
gh wrote:Prodigious mileage and "marathon training" aren't necessarily the same thing. Having trained alongside him for several years I can assure you that he was doing the same intense short-interval workouts as all the other milers on the Washington State team. You've got to remember that this was the era where the dual meet was king in the Pac-8 and his focus for months was running mile/2M doubles against high-level opponents. He worked mightily at improving his speed.


Fair enough--that makes great sense, and you were there, I wasn't. My original reference was explicitly to his HS training, since I assumed that was the larger question. I would assume that his collegiate training was at least a bit more "standardized" than what he'd been doing as a prep. Do you not think that is true?


I'd be talking through my hat if I offered up any kind of analysis of his HS training. I wasn't there, and you can't place much trust in what Lindgren himself would say.

I would note, however, that he was a faster miler as a prep than he ever was as a collegian!
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby aaronk » Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:50 pm

I posted on another thread about the "psychology" of running.
Meaning, if someone wants to run a 4:00 mile, but has "only" a 1:54 880 best, he would find it psychologically difficult to have the confidence to attempt a 4:00 mile.

But if that athlete's 880 best was 1:52....or 1:50.....then he would be able to feel more confidence going out in the needed 2:00 first half...or even 1:58.

So I'd suggest that if a runner has a longer distance time goal....that he first attain a time sufficiently faster over half that longer distance to allow him to go out at such a pace as to feel comfortable.....and psychologically relaxed.....to keep going at that pace for the last half of the race!!

As for Gerry Lindgren not having run faster than 55.....or whatever in the 440....that's ridiculous!!
He didn't RUN a fast 440 (or 880) because he didn't really TRAIN for those distances!!
Maybe (as GH indicates) he did speed intervals on the track.....but that was more in preparation for the MILE (or longer) races......not an 880 or a 440.

I asked Frank Shorter (at the 1976 AAU in Eugene) why he hadn't gone sub-4:00 in the mile yet.....and would he.

Shorter replied (paraphrased): "Sure, I can go 3:57. But why would I want to?? I can run six-4:30's in a row, and WIN!! If I ran 3:57, I'd be beaten by a handful of guys!! The only reason to do that would be to say I'd done it!!"
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:18 pm

I suspect Lindgren was doing what was fairly common in the 60's, at least with me and Newton's York boys. 20 440's fast, with lots of LSD stuff.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:39 pm

the word "slow" was not in Lindgren's vocabulary (relatively speaking). Nobody (and there were other national-class runners on the team with him) even bothered to go out on a long run with him more than once (not meant to be taken completely literally).
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby kuha » Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:46 pm

aaronk wrote:Shorter replied (paraphrased): "Sure, I can go 3:57. But why would I want to?? I can run six-4:30's in a row, and WIN!! If I ran 3:57, I'd be beaten by a handful of guys!! The only reason to do that would be to say I'd done it!!"


Exactly. Only slightly (OK, more than slightly) more foolish would be to expect to see what he could do in the high jump and long jump.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:14 pm

aaronk wrote:....
As for Gerry Lindgren not having run faster than 55.....or whatever in the 440....that's ridiculous!!
He didn't RUN a fast 440 (or 880) because he didn't really TRAIN for those distances!!
Maybe (as GH indicates) he did speed intervals on the track.....but that was more in preparation for the MILE (or longer) races......not an 880 or a 440....


this isn't a question of what somebody's race time was. I'm telling you that Lindgren couldn't run that fast, not that he didn't. If he trained specifically to set a 400 PR, I'm guessing a 53 at best.

All of which goes back to the silly statement that a 4:05 guy must have sub-50 ability. Just doesn't wash.

That's the same kind of "by formula" balderdash that Eldrick used to spout.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Dutra5 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:37 pm

aaronk wrote:
As for Gerry Lindgren not having run faster than 55.....or whatever in the 440....that's ridiculous!!
He didn't RUN a fast 440 (or 880) because he didn't really TRAIN for those distances!!
Maybe (as GH indicates) he did speed intervals on the track.....but that was more in preparation for the MILE (or longer) races......not an 880 or a 440.


He didn't run a particularly fast 400m or 440y at the time because he wasn't particularly fast over the distance.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:19 pm

gh wrote:the word "slow" was not in Lindgren's vocabulary (relatively speaking). Nobody (and there were other national-class runners on the team with him) even bothered to go out on a long run with him more than once (not meant to be taken completely literally).


Yes, I am sure slow and Lindgren were never in the same room.

Just curious, but I wonder if GL's training pace on long runs differed when he had others with him. Was he like Virgin at Illinois when he had to lead everything and pretty much turned every run into a race?

PS. By the way, there are lots of people who could run 4:05 and not run sub 50. Bjorklund for one.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby aaronk » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:20 pm

Dutra5 wrote:
aaronk wrote:
As for Gerry Lindgren not having run faster than 55.....or whatever in the 440....that's ridiculous!!
He didn't RUN a fast 440 (or 880) because he didn't really TRAIN for those distances!!
Maybe (as GH indicates) he did speed intervals on the track.....but that was more in preparation for the MILE (or longer) races......not an 880 or a 440.


He didn't run a particularly fast 400m or 440y at the time because he wasn't particularly fast over the distance.


Then it becomes even MORE amazing that he finished that 27:11.6 six mile with Mills with a 57.9 final 400!!!
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:23 pm

we used to joke that if Lindgren ever broke 4:00 in the mile, he'd do it by setting PRs in the 440 and 880 en route.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby JayIsMe » Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:24 pm

26mi235 wrote:come .

To indicate that 49 is not going to be typical let us look at Austin Mudd, who just got third at NCAAs while running 3:57.9 and who ran 1:47. He ran a PR (or at lest a SB) this year -- of 49.97. In fact, this would lead us to think that 49 is not only not typical of someone that runs 1:55 but that there might be none in the 4:05/1:55/49 set. Even using 1:51-52 this would indicate that 49 is tough.

... set personal bests in the 400 meters and 600 meters, finishing second in 49.97 seconds and fifth in 1:20.31


From another thread, Austin Mudd actually split 47.x at the 2011Indiana HS championships-

dukehjsteve wrote:Here's a name to watch out for... Austin Mudd. First he rips off a 4:03.00 1600, then comes back and rips off a 1:49.25. That 4:03.00 broke Ruda Chapa's State record from 1976 of 4:05 for a mile. Oh, and just to cap things off he contributed a 47.4 2nd leg to his school's 3:14.40 winning 1600 relay team.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby kuha » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:28 pm

Conor Dary wrote:PS. By the way, there are lots of people who could run 4:05 and not run sub 50. Bjorklund for one.


Just learned tonight that Bjorklund means "land of (or dweller in) the birches."
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:32 pm

Splits on high school 4x400s are not particularly reliable. Having seen him run some 4x400 legs and a 400, I do not seem something starting with a 47. I do not know his splits on the 4x400 but the aggregate times were about 3:18, so they are just averaging 49.5+. And, clearly he is faster now than in high school (3:57.9 indoors in a championship race vs 4:01.9 in a end-of-season blast race).

Of course, Mudd is a racer, not a time guy.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby EPelle » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:46 pm

I recall another 4.05 miler earlier this century who recorded PB's of: 54/1.54/4.05,9

He just happened to also have 8.41,11/13.44,70 bests in the longer races.

There was this other endurance-based kid with a four-lettered surname around the same time who ran 3.42,70/4.02,62. I don't imagine he snuck under 50-flat nor had the wheels for a 1.50-1.51. He did run 8.55,12 for the 8-lapper to win a state title at the longer race.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby aaronk » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:16 am

EPelle wrote:I recall another 4.05 miler earlier this century who recorded PB's of: 54/1.54/4.05,9

He just happened to also have 8.41,11/13.44,70 bests in the longer races.

There was this other endurance-based kid with a four-lettered surname around the same time who ran 3.42,70/4.02,62. I don't imagine he snuck under 50-flat nor had the wheels for a 1.50-1.51. He did run 8.55,12 for the 8-lapper to win a state title at the longer race.


Dathan Ritzenhein and Ryan Hall.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby PDJ551 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:00 am

Sometimes a miler's 400 time is not an accurate reflection of what their true speed is over that distance. Many milers rarely run that event and we know experience in how to gauge your speed comes with racing an event frequently.

I was once coaching a runner who I hadn't worked with until he was a senior in high school. The previous year he ran a half mile in the low 2's and a mile in the low 4:30s. He told me that he could run about 53 in the 440. In one of his first big meets he was running the final leg on a sprint medley. He received the baton way back. He took off a bit too fast. He passed through the first lap in 54.5 and he was catching people and didn't look tired. I felt that if I yelled out 54 he might freak and tell himself that he was running too fast. My belief has always been that at midpoint the dye has been cast so slowing down won't do any good. Anyway he continued his pursuit and moved into 1st place on the back stretch. He ended up running his leg in 1:55.

Thinking about it later I realized that he was really much faster than 53 in a 440 (those pre 1980 days) and never had truly "raced" that distance. Unfortunately with the arcane rules in our state at that time I never got the chance to run him in the mile relay. He did win his division in the state meet in the 880 though.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:16 am

Another example. I also used to run a lot with Rick Riley, who ran 3:59.x to win the '70 Pac-8 title. Being generous, he might have been a 51- or 52-second guy.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Marlow » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:06 am

gh wrote:Another example. I also used to run a lot with Rick Riley, who ran 3:59.x to win the '70 Pac-8 title. Being generous, he might have been a 51- or 52-second guy.

Which shows the difference between the slow-twitch and not-so-slow twitch distance guys. The Ryuns and Webbs (and all big kickers) have trained their bodies to withstand a hard pace in order for them to unleash their sprint speed at the end. Others, like Lindgren, Ron Clarke and David Bedford, were blessed with great stamina and could hold a higher % of their top speed, so they tried to run away and hide. MOST champions do have the sprint speed to wait-and-kick.

That's why I'm so impressed with Rupp. It really seems he's more the stamina type, but he and Salazar have developed a wicked kick now.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby BBTM media » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:11 pm

Too bad that Arroyo didn't run a full Mile - shame on state federations except Massachusetts. No American boy has dreamed of breaking 4 minutes for 1600. Go Mile!
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby Marlow » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:05 pm

BBTM media wrote:No American boy has dreamed of breaking 4 minutes for 1600.

Wow, are you wrong! Since most state meets are 1600, almost all do. Would they also like to break 4 in the mile? Of course.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby BBTM media » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:29 pm

Marlow wrote:
BBTM media wrote:No American boy has dreamed of breaking 4 minutes for 1600.

Wow, are you wrong! Since most state meets are 1600, almost all do. Would they also like to break 4 in the mile? Of course.


There is no context or history or Bannister/Ryun HS moment for breaking 4 minutes for 1600 - thank god.
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby aaronk » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:14 pm

BBTM media wrote:
Marlow wrote:
BBTM media wrote:No American boy has dreamed of breaking 4 minutes for 1600.

Wow, are you wrong! Since most state meets are 1600, almost all do. Would they also like to break 4 in the mile? Of course.


There is no context or history or Bannister/Ryun HS moment for breaking 4 minutes for 1600 - thank god.


Go back 50 years.
The long-awaited memoir of Roger Bannister is now on sale!
Just 2 pounds and 4 pence!
Look for it at book shoppes everywhere!!

"The Four Minute 1609.1 Meters"
by Roger Bannister! :P
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby gh » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:16 pm

BBTM media wrote:
Marlow wrote:
BBTM media wrote:No American boy has dreamed of breaking 4 minutes for 1600.

Wow, are you wrong! Since most state meets are 1600, almost all do. Would they also like to break 4 in the mile? Of course.


There is no context or history or Bannister/Ryun HS moment for breaking 4 minutes for 1600 - thank god.


Thank god nobody has every done it (and perhaps never will).
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Re: new HS boys mile leader

Postby lovetorun » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:50 pm

gh...I had no idea that you trained/ran with GerryLindgren and Rick Riley. Can we get more details on that i.e. what distances you raced and PR's?
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