USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]


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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby aaronk » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:54 am

odelltrclan wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:At altitude of at least 1490 metres or more and her performance in Albuquerque was marked as Altitude in the 2011 ATFS Annual when she jumped a lesser performance. Isi is still the WR holder for me. However an outstanding effort from the OG Champion.


:roll: Yes altitude seems to make SUCH a difference in the pole vault.


Hmmm. Looking at how well ALL the performers did last night you have to wonder. Either they all peaked perfectly for the biggest meet any of them have ever competed in, or just perhaps altitude just might actually help performance?


Actually....vaulting SIXTEEN feet FIVE and a half inches into the air....

I'd say Ms Suhr was AT altitude.....

until she landed!! :P
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:01 am

26mi235 wrote:At the speed that the athletes go down the runway and the length of the runway, at ALQ altitude, the difference in the run time would be well less than 0.01. The effects of altitude on the sprints in Zurich are much greater than of altitude in ALQ on the PV. Now Atlanta might be low enough that the effects are similar but maybe Atlanta is still too high for the effects on the sprints to be only equal to ALQ's effect on the PV.


Please explain where you come up with this Zurich analogy.

Zurich - roughly 1,400 feet in altitude.
Albuquerque - roughly 5,000 feet in altitude.

Where are they comparable for this analysis?
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Master Po » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:30 am

odelltrclan wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:At altitude of at least 1490 metres or more and her performance in Albuquerque was marked as Altitude in the 2011 ATFS Annual when she jumped a lesser performance. Isi is still the WR holder for me. However an outstanding effort from the OG Champion.


:roll: Yes altitude seems to make SUCH a difference in the pole vault.


Hmmm. Looking at how well ALL the performers did last night you have to wonder. Either they all peaked perfectly for the biggest meet any of them have ever competed in, or just perhaps altitude just might actually help performance?


I don't know anything about this event, but I think that I can't make a persuasive general claim about something like this -- altitude's effect on pv -- based on one (small) meet, even if it did produce a WR and some other PBs.

Here's another possible explanation: Suhr is one of the greats, is healthy & is having a good year so far. Not surprising that she would have a great sequence in her -- not only the WR, but the whole sequence. It hardly needs to be said that she was "on" yesterday. As for the others, they at least know that if they're going to compete with her, they have to be at their best. This explanation doesn't explain it all either, of course.

As for the altitude question, I would be very interested to read pvp's further thoughts, as indicated in her brief response above.
:)
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby JRM » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:16 am

odelltrclan wrote:
26mi235 wrote:At the speed that the athletes go down the runway and the length of the runway, at ALQ altitude, the difference in the run time would be well less than 0.01. The effects of altitude on the sprints in Zurich are much greater than of altitude in ALQ on the PV. Now Atlanta might be low enough that the effects are similar but maybe Atlanta is still too high for the effects on the sprints to be only equal to ALQ's effect on the PV.


Please explain where you come up with this Zurich analogy.

Zurich - roughly 1,400 feet in altitude.
Albuquerque - roughly 5,000 feet in altitude.

Where are they comparable for this analysis?


Wind and altitude effects only become significant when the athlete runs very fast. 26mi is basically saying that sprinters get a comparatively greater assistance at "lower" altitudes than a pole vaulter would at very high altitude.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:31 am

JRM wrote:Wind and altitude effects only become significant when the athlete runs very fast. 26mi is basically saying that sprinters get a comparatively greater assistance at "lower" altitudes than a pole vaulter would at very high altitude.


Jenn was quoted after the meet as saying she expected big things in this meet and one of the reasons she gave was because it was at altitude.

You cannot definitively say altitude only helps fast athletes (by the way, Jenn is considered fast among women's PV's). It helps athletes become faster period. 26 I believe thought ALB was less than 1493 feet, not meters. It is essentially a mile high city. When you look at Flojo's WR, one reason given for people believing it was wind aided was the performance by all the athletes in the race. The same holds true for this meet.

I am a huge Jenn fan, but this performance was assisted by the altitude plain and simple and even she admitted it in her interview after the event. If it were Silva or Bleasdale setting the record, would people have the same attitude with respect to the altitude?
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Dave » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:47 am

How many PV records have been set at altitude?

How many of the other women set PRs? Also, did the mLJ competitors set PRs? If not, that would tend to argue that the altitude didn't have a huge impact.
Last edited by Dave on Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby az2004 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:53 am

what happend in 1968 at mexico city

race walk is on the 3k live webcast now
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:57 am

Dave wrote:How many PV records have been set at altitude?

How many of the other women set PRs? Also, did the mLJ competitors set PRs? If not, that would tend to argue that the altitude didn't have a huge impact.


I don't know but the current Women's indoor record is, as well as the current men's outdoor record. That is 2 of the biggest 4 records there are and there aren't all that many meets at altitude.

I think all of the women in the event either tied or set new PR's. Some by quite a margin.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:08 am

odelltrclan wrote:
26mi235 wrote:At the speed that the athletes go down the runway and the length of the runway, at ALQ altitude, the difference in the run time would be well less than 0.01. The effects of altitude on the sprints in Zurich are much greater than of altitude in ALQ on the PV. Now Atlanta might be low enough that the effects are similar but maybe Atlanta is still too high for the effects on the sprints to be only equal to ALQ's effect on the PV.


Please explain where you come up with this Zurich analogy.

Zurich - roughly 1,400 feet in altitude.
Albuquerque - roughly 5,000 feet in altitude.

Where are they comparable for this analysis?


The effects of wind resistance go up with the square of the speed -- the rest is left as an exercise for the reader. If you do not understand the exercise than you might not really understand the issue in terms of whether and to what extent altitude is an 'aid'.

I don't know but the current Women's indoor record is, as well as the current men's outdoor record. That is 2 of the biggest 4 records there are and there aren't all that many meets at altitude.


Statistically, you cannot use the current record in an argument about whether altitude is an aiding factor, you have to use the other records. Bubka's a essentially the same indoors and outdoors [6.15/6.14];, Isi's outdoor record is not at altitude.

Please, look at the factors that would make a mark 'altitude aided' The wind resistance is a little lower and so the running speed can be a little higher. vaulters have pretty good speed but are no where need the sprint speeds. Since resistance is a 'speed squared' effect, the aid drops off very quickly with speed. Further, outdoors you typically have a tailwind of about 1 mps (since they usually pick the favorable wind direction) and that has to help as much as altitude would help .

Finally, they do not disallow records for the vault if wind is over the allowable. What does that tell us? It tells us that wind, and by extension, altitude is not an aiding factor of significance.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Dave » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:15 am

odelltrclan wrote:
Dave wrote:How many PV records have been set at altitude?

How many of the other women set PRs? Also, did the mLJ competitors set PRs? If not, that would tend to argue that the altitude didn't have a huge impact.


I don't know but the current Women's indoor record is, as well as the current men's outdoor record. That is 2 of the biggest 4 records there are and there aren't all that many meets at altitude.

I think all of the women in the event either tied or set new PR's. Some by quite a margin.


The IAAF site changes have made answering this question much easier.
--Men's outdoor top list. 6.14 was set at Sestriere which is at altitude. However, all of his previous records were not at altitude.
--Men's indoor top list has of Bubka's top jumps at Grenoble but the rest are not.
--Women's indoor shows nothing other than yesterday's performance at elevation
--Women's outdoor list shows nothing at elevation.

I think this really says that Ms. Suhr is finally healthy and had a good day.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:17 am

26mi235 wrote: Further, outdoors you typically have a tailwind of about 1 mps (since they usually pick the favorable wind direction) and that has to help as much as altitude would help .

Finally, they do not disallow records for the vault if wind is over the allowable. What does that tell us? It tells us that wind, and by extension, altitude is not an aiding factor of significance.


I find the first arguments a bit weak, and I don't wish to take the time to discuss all the reasons why. It is like trying to split hairs. The second argument, however, I think this a very good argument, i.e. indoor competitions having no wind. It is not going to change the fact that T&FN will have an "A" next to the mark.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Dave » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:37 am

Kylie Hutson had a huge PR yesterday. I don't know if that strengthens the argument for this being altitude assisted or not. She really had a very big day yesterday and most of her PRs have come in ABQ. I don't know if Ms. Hutson is from ABQ or somewhere else but that is in interesting coincidence. I don't think the other women had PRs.

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/united-sta ... rogression
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby eldanielfire » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:40 am

polevaultpower wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:At altitude of at least 1490 metres or more and her performance in Albuquerque was marked as Altitude in the 2011 ATFS Annual when she jumped a lesser performance. Isi is still the WR holder for me. However an outstanding effort from the OG Champion.


:roll: Yes altitude seems to make SUCH a difference in the pole vault.


Surely it might, thinner air, less resistance, less pushing back, less pushing down, poles cuts through the air in the run-up more easily. Etc etc. What I don't know is the measurements for if it has such a measurable impact.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:52 am

odelltrclan wrote: It is not going to change the fact that T&FN will have an "A" next to the mark.


Yes, well T&FN puts an A by the high jumps as well, and I see no earthly reason for that. Clearly the jumpers are not going fast enough for the altitude to assist them through reduced wind resistance.

The gravitational effects are also minimal, and would affect all of the throws (plus gravitational variations are large compared to the difference in radius and the latitude would have an effect at least as large (go look at the difficulty of breathing at 6000-7000m near the equator versus at high latitude).

Perhaps we should invite JRM to put in is two cents (or 99, in his case).
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:06 pm

Dave wrote: I don't think the other women had PRs.

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/united-sta ... rogression


Mary Saxer has only jumped higher . . . . in Albuquerque, by 2 cm
Janice Keppler set a personal best last night
April Kubishta has only jumped higher . . . . in Flagstaff, Arizona (higher elevation)
Katy Viuf has only jumped higher indoors . . . in Albuquerque, last year

Clearly looks as if something was "in the air" last night (or not)! :lol:
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby az2004 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:10 pm

wl for whiting 21.80m

71-6 ¼
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby unclezadok » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:11 pm

It's difficult to see how altitude would make much more than a centimeter of difference or so, if any. As for the vaulters other than Suhr, it's about time they did something.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:42 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
Dave wrote: I don't think the other women had PRs.

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/united-sta ... rogression


Mary Saxer has only jumped higher . . . . in Albuquerque, by 2 cm
Janice Keppler set a personal best last night
April Kubishta has only jumped higher . . . . in Flagstaff, Arizona (higher elevation)
Katy Viuf has only jumped higher indoors . . . in Albuquerque, last year

Clearly looks as if something was "in the air" last night (or not)! :lol:


The plural of anecdote is not data. You have to have a lot of unselected data. Thus, go to the world and American and European records and see how many of them (before this one; statistically, you cannot use the observation that set up the hypothesis in the sample) are set at altitude and what proportion of jumps are at altitude. There is really not much 'there' there, I think. And the killer is that there really is no clear hypothesis that has a strong physical basis. How much faster is the run speed, what sort of run speed translates into how much difference in height. Without these latter two factors the rest is almost not worthy of discussion.

In general, vaulters can run faster down the runway than they do run; why don't they push to run at sprint speeds if it is advantageous. Yes, you cannot make the common mistake of slowing the last two steps but really, what speeds are the vaulters at going down the runway? And, can they control extra speed?

An interesting question would be: do vaulters alter their takeoff start point when they go to altitude? If they are going faster, then they need to be covering 7 lefts or whatever there pattern in over a longer run; it seems unlikely that an increase in speed comes through as faster turnover.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Dave » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:46 pm

unclezadok wrote:It's difficult to see how altitude would make much more than a centimeter of difference or so, if any. As for the vaulters other than Suhr, it's about time they did something.


The altitude didn't do a thing for the men today.

Bubka's 6.14 at Sestriere is listed as the WR with no asterisk.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby unclezadok » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:52 pm

So Mary Cain did run the 800m after all.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:54 pm

unclezadok wrote:So Mary Cain did run the 800m after all.


I was wondering if she could crack 60 in a 440 and I guess we found out. :lol:
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:55 pm

26mi235 wrote: go to the world and American and European records and see how many of them (before this one; statistically, you cannot use the observation that set up the hypothesis in the sample) are set at altitude and what proportion of jumps are at altitude.


This is flawed logic from the get go. How many competitions are there at lower level versus at altitude? You probably have 100 competitions at lower levels for every 1 or 2 at altitude that matter. And, to also ignore that all of America's current top vaulters either have personal bests at altitude or near their very best when there is such a dearth of competition at altitude is telling.

26mi235 wrote:In general, vaulters can run faster down the runway than they do run; why don't they push to run at sprint speeds if it is advantageous.


Again, flawed logic. Vaulters know that the faster they can run down the runway will provide them more of an advantage. The key is running they have to run with control. They have to be consistent. If you are able to get extra speed and still maintain control via altitude it gives you an advantage.

26mi235 wrote: An interesting question would be: do vaulters alter their takeoff start point when they go to altitude? If they are going faster, then they need to be covering 7 lefts or whatever there pattern in over a longer run; it seems unlikely that an increase in speed comes through as faster turnover.


Good question. Would be nice if someone asks Jenn that question, since she is now at the top of the heap indoors.

My question to you is, why would Jenn indicate she expected to jump high because of the altitude of Albuquerque if it provides vaulters no benefits?
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:57 pm

While this [the women's mile field] is a limited field with many top Americans missing, when was the last time a high school runner won a national title at the senior level?
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:04 pm

Dave wrote:
unclezadok wrote:It's difficult to see how altitude would make much more than a centimeter of difference or so, if any. As for the vaulters other than Suhr, it's about time they did something.


The altitude didn't do a thing for the men today.

Bubka's 6.14 at Sestriere is listed as the WR with no asterisk.



Hmmm, really?

Jake Winder, second place, personal record.
Jeff Coover, third place, personal record
Michael Woepse, fourth place? Personal record is Albuquerque, NM. Not far below today.
Shawn Francis, fifth place. Only 1 centimeter below personal best.

Also, what happened with the Pole Vault results for the men in the heptathlon? Hardee, personal record, Nixon, personal record, Daniel Gooris, personal record!.

This must have been one of the most important meets of all time (so much so that many skipped the meet) for so many to have their all time bests in the last couple of days.
Last edited by odelltrclan on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Dave » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:06 pm

Did anyone expect to see Jeremy Wariner win today and is 3rd in the world indoors this year? I am pretty sure that while the altitude may or may not have helped Ms. Suhr, it did absolutely nothing for Mr. Wariner.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Dave » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:12 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
Dave wrote:
unclezadok wrote:It's difficult to see how altitude would make much more than a centimeter of difference or so, if any. As for the vaulters other than Suhr, it's about time they did something.


The altitude didn't do a thing for the men today.

Bubka's 6.14 at Sestriere is listed as the WR with no asterisk.



Hmmm, really?

Jake Winder, second place, personal record.
Jeff Coover, third place, personal record
Michael Woepse, fourth place? Personal record is Albuquerque, NM. Not far below today.
Shawn Francis, fifth place. Only 1 centimeter below personal best.



Interesting, my snark was focused on the National Indoor championships being won with 5.60. That is great that the other vaulters improved their bests.

I'll accept that vaulting at altitude helps. That said, the IAAF does accept Bubka's 6.14 at Sestriere as the WR.

I also noted that Brad Walker had a pretty off day. Is he still recovering from injury?
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby aaronk » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:19 pm

With Ajee Wilson's victory, and Mary Cain's win, this almost certainly marks the first time TWO teenagers.....boys or girls, or a combination thereof....have won TWO USA championships in one meet....and in almost back-to-back races!!

Wilson is now 18 and 10 months young.
Cain is now 16 and 10 months young.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:30 pm

aaronk wrote:With Ajee Wilson's victory, and Mary Cain's win, this almost certainly marks the first time TWO teenagers.....boys or girls, or a combination thereof....have won TWO USA championships in one meet....and in almost back-to-back races!!

Wilson is now 18 and 10 months young.
Cain is now 16 and 10 months young.


Cain 58.5 last quarter? Girls got some wheels. Even in a slow race, that is pretty impressive after running 3/4 of a mile at altitude.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby az2004 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:35 pm

Mary Cain
Unattached

40.73
(1) 40.73

1:25.26
(1) 44.54

2:11.57
(1) 46.32

2:56.74
(3) 45.17

3:34.57
(2) 37.83

4:07.09
(2) 32.53

4:36.35
(1) 29.27

5:05.68
(1) 29.34

Mary Cain
Unattached

40.73
(1) 40.73

1:25.26
(1) 44.54

2:11.57
(1) 46.32

2:56.74
(3) 45.17

3:34.57
(2) 37.83

4:07.09
(2) 32.53

4:36.35
(1) 29.27

5:05.68
(1) 29.34
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby JRM » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:39 pm

26mi235 wrote:Perhaps we should invite JRM to put in is two cents (or 99, in his case).


I already offered a brief explanation, but was quickly shut down with the usual "You can't say that for sure," and "No one can ever *really* understand the effects of wind and altitude!" Suffice it to say I've had this argument one too many times, and will slink back to my particle accelerators and one-dimensional universes. I guess at least I know what I'm talking about there....
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Dave » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:51 pm

JRM wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:
26mi235 wrote:At the speed that the athletes go down the runway and the length of the runway, at ALQ altitude, the difference in the run time would be well less than 0.01. The effects of altitude on the sprints in Zurich are much greater than of altitude in ALQ on the PV. Now Atlanta might be low enough that the effects are similar but maybe Atlanta is still too high for the effects on the sprints to be only equal to ALQ's effect on the PV.


Please explain where you come up with this Zurich analogy.

Zurich - roughly 1,400 feet in altitude.
Albuquerque - roughly 5,000 feet in altitude.

Where are they comparable for this analysis?


Wind and altitude effects only become significant when the athlete runs very fast. 26mi is basically saying that sprinters get a comparatively greater assistance at "lower" altitudes than a pole vaulter would at very high altitude.


Then is the altitude material here or not?

I have argued it isn't based purely on results, but others have pointed out that a lot of vaulters did really well here this weekend.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby unclezadok » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:55 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
Dave wrote:
unclezadok wrote:It's difficult to see how altitude would make much more than a centimeter of difference or so, if any. As for the vaulters other than Suhr, it's about time they did something.


The altitude didn't do a thing for the men today.

Bubka's 6.14 at Sestriere is listed as the WR with no asterisk.



Hmmm, really?

Jake Winder, second place, personal record.
Jeff Coover, third place, personal record
Michael Woepse, fourth place? Personal record is Albuquerque, NM. Not far below today.
Shawn Francis, fifth place. Only 1 centimeter below personal best.

Also, what happened with the Pole Vault results for the men in the heptathlon? Hardee, personal record, Nixon, personal record, Daniel Gooris, personal record!.

This must have been one of the most important meets of all time (so much so that many skipped the meet) for so many to have their all time bests in the last couple of days.


Yes, really.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby polevaultpower » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:42 pm

Altitude is slightly beneficial to a pole vaulter. It's one of many factors, it's not some magical effect that makes everyone jump higher. The Pole Vault Summit in Reno is at altitude. Lavillenie jumped a season best there... and then went on to jump higher in almost every meet since.

For American pole vaulters, USAs have been in ABQ the past few years, and that is the last indoor meet of the season for most of them, so of course there is going to be a trend toward seeing good marks there. I don't know of any pole vaulters that go out of their way to seek meets at altitude.

Jenn is finally healthy and put together a great season. She jumped 4.84 last week at a little meet in Indiana. Her previous indoor record was in Boston, her third best indoor jump ABQ, none of her other top overall jumps were at altitude.

Kylie has also had a great season. Remember she jumped 4.70 in 2011, so this was a significant PR for her, but it didn't come out of thin air (haha). Her three previous meets were 4.60, 4.62, 4.65, so she has been building toward this.

Janice Keppler has had a great season as well. She jumped 4.50 at that Indiana meet last week, and I think she recently started training with Rick and Jenn again. 4.60 was a big PR for her, but it didn't come out of thin air either.

Mary Saxer had a solid meet, season PR and equaled her second best jump ever. She also jumped 4.60 at one of my beach vaults a few years ago and other than the one 4.60 and 4.62 (both at Nationals) she has a ton of 4.50+ jumps that are not at altitude, so the 4.60 jumps are not outliers. They are consistent with someone who performs well at Nationals.

Becky Holliday's PR is 4.60, her 4.50 in ABQ was a season best but not even top-10 all-time for her. Of her 10 marks at 4.55 or better, only two are at altitude, a pair of 4.55s and both at USAs.

April Kubishta's best marks are almost all at altitude because she lives in Arizona, works full-time as a teacher, and most of the competition facilities around her are at altitude, so of course most of her meets are at altitude. She jumped higher in her last meet.

Katy Viuf did not have a season PR in ABQ. She lives in CA, most of the indoor facilities near here are at altitude, so most of her indoor bests are at altitude, but she has better sea level marks outdoors.

April Steiner Bennett had her second worst meet of the season. Her indoor PR of 4.60 was in Reno 2007, but the rest of her top 10 marks, including her 4.63 overall PR, were not at altitude.

Gergel tied her season best at ABQ, but none of her top 10 all-time marks are at altitude.

Not even a season best for Street, and only her 8th best mark all-time in a fairly young career.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby polevaultpower » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:42 pm

SO in conclusion, jumping at altitude does not seem to have a _significant_ impact on the heights that pole vaulters jump. Generally speaking, the best performances in yesterday's competition are primarily influenced by a group of ladies who have been having an outstanding season already and peaked at the right time.

Statisticians label them at altitude because they like to note everything possible about everything possible.

As far as the men's comp, two 5.50 guys jumped 5.55, no one else had a lifetime best. I guess the women used up all of the magic fairy dust.

As far as the hep, 5.30 tied Trey's PR, although that was also set in ABQ, but he has a slew of 5.20+ jumps at sea level. Gooris tied his PR, matching a sea level mark, and this was his only top-10 mark at altitude.

Soooo not as many all-time bests as being claimed...
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby polevaultpower » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:51 pm

All-Time PRs for WPVers: Suhr, Hutson, Keppler 3/12 athletes
All-Time PRs for MPvers: Winder, Coover 2/13 athletes
Seems fairly par for the course for a National Championships.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby mcgato » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:04 pm

Since pole vault and gravity are being discussed, I will add the obligatory xkcd link.
http://xkcd.com/852/
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby jamboy » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:05 pm

D'angel ran a great time 6.49 to win the 60m.

I was hoping to see Darvis Patton in the race based on his great 6.50 at the Millrose Games earlier.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby DrJay » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:06 pm

Thanks, Becca. Excellent post.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:16 pm

polevaultpower wrote:All-Time PRs for WPVers: Suhr, Hutson, Keppler 3/12 athletes
All-Time PRs for MPvers: Winder, Coover 2/13 athletes
Seems fairly par for the course for a National Championships.


I think you are doing WAY too much rationalization to convince yourself.

3 of the ladies who competed last night and did not set PR's already had PR's that were set at altitude.
1 of the male competitors who did not set an all time PR also has a PR at altitude.
3 Decathletes equaled or bettered their bests.

You can rationalize all you want to about individual performances and the reasons. You cannot rationalize how so many of those in the groups somehow all together on the same weekend either beat their bests, or came very close to beating their bests. Individually, there may not be an anomaly, but collectively there is a huge one.

Of all the competitions contested among all these athletes, likely into the thousands, relatively few of those would have been contested at altitude. Yet nearly all those mentioned above have PR's at altitude. For those that don't, their all time best at altitude is near their outdoor best. Given the lack of competitions at altitude as compared with other venues, you would expect a far far lower percentage among these athletes.

If 95% of all competitions are at low altitude, and that may be a stretch too low. You would expect 95% of all the personal bests of these athletes to follow suit. How many of the athletes that we are discussing have PR's at lower levels? Certainly not nearly as many as the percentages would indicate. This in itself is an anomaly as well.

This was a low key meet in an season where there is no world team, and many high level athletes chose not to attend or compete. To see the results belies statistically what we should have seen collectively for the group.
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Re: USATF Results: Day 2 [AR for Suhr, then WR]

Postby Marlow » Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:24 pm

My 2 (cents) observations.

1. Yes, altitude DOES help pole vaulters, but not as significantly as a good steady tailwind, which no one mewls about when it happens.
2. Ordinarily I HATE slow tactical races, but Mary Cain's brilliant race was actually better with all the dawdling, because it built the suspense into a great crescendo. I loved watching her kick.
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