All Hail Salazar!


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All Hail Salazar!

Postby BCBaroo » Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:41 pm

Galen Rupp = amazing. Mo Farah = amazing. Mary Cain = amazing...

Common denominator = Salazar

I'm just gobsmacked.

Does it make anyone else cringe to think about Alan Webb leaving his tutelage?

Has there ever been a better American distance coach?

My jaw hurts from the dropping...
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:00 pm

The results are not simple an additive of Coach + Athlete. The interactions and strengths and weaknesses make a big difference, and the locale may, as well.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby az2004 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:05 pm

isn't centro with salazar now too
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby eldanielfire » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:25 pm

I'm not sure Salazar can take any credit for Mary Cain's performances so far and only a global scale she's isn't above global athletes in her age group in the UK, East Africa etc. Future improvements, yes he will take credit.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby exdrake » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:39 pm

Don't misread me--I'm very pro-Salazar and Rupp, et al...

But MANY have left him (A. Goucher, K. Goucher, Webb, O'Lionaird, I'm forgettin the new female pro (ex-Tennessee? who moved on to texas when Salazar's former asst left for there, etc--and never with any public reason stated that I know of). Many have gone to the Schumaker group. In recent long interview with A. Goucher he twice said he regretted ever going to Salazar (but not the move to Oregon from Colorado) but didn't say why--and exasperatingly--the interviewer didn't even attempt to ask. i wonder if he blames A.S. for the last of his injury years?

I have to beleive it's his 24/7 live the life take on the training but that is sheer speculation cuz noone ever says. That is also not a shot, in the least at A.S. Esp. once Kara G had a child it may no longer have been the right fit (my only other theory/guess. there is that without Begley (there's another who left A.S. after he trained her to an olympic berth) she had no training mate and now has S. Flanagan.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby Master Po » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:02 pm

exdrake wrote:Don't misread me--I'm very pro-Salazar and Rupp, et al...

But MANY have left him (A. Goucher, K. Goucher, Webb, O'Lionaird, I'm forgettin the new female pro (ex-Tennessee? who moved on to texas when Salazar's former asst left for there, etc--and never with any public reason stated that I know of). Many have gone to the Schumaker group. In recent long interview with A. Goucher he twice said he regretted ever going to Salazar (but not the move to Oregon from Colorado) but didn't say why--and exasperatingly--the interviewer didn't even attempt to ask. i wonder if he blames A.S. for the last of his injury years?

I have to beleive it's his 24/7 live the life take on the training but that is sheer speculation cuz noone ever says. That is also not a shot, in the least at A.S. Esp. once Kara G had a child it may no longer have been the right fit (my only other theory/guess. there is that without Begley (there's another who left A.S. after he trained her to an olympic berth) she had no training mate and now has S. Flanagan.


Am trying to be careful not to misread, so...athletes are moving around from coach/group to coach/group pretty much all the time. If looked at all the best coaches just in the USA, we would see (a) a list of successes, and (b) a list of people who left. The second list is probably always longer. Based on his work with Lagat, I would say that James Li is a great coach. I would say the same for Bob Larsen and Meb K., or Sam Bell and Bob Kennedy. I'm sure each has a long list of "leavers." Sometimes they say why, sometimes not. Goucher didn't say why, for Salazar. I can't read anything into that. On the other hand, to cite something I read recently, from Caitlin Chock, who was with Salazar and "left." She has written about it and has very impressive things (in my reading) to say about Salazar -- primarily this: She felt like he had her well-being and interests primary all the time. These situations of flourishing and "leaving" in athletics coach-athlete relations are kind of like what people do in top educational programs, arts organizations, and other jobs. (e.g., I left an elite graduate programme because it wasn't the right fit -- for me -- no complaint about them.) The factors are always complex, as 26m235 suggests above -- it's a particular mix of coach, athlete, situation, etc. But with all that noted, and being aware that I don't know a lot, I would have to say, yes -- Salazar is a great coach. (And Galen Rupp is a great athlete. And apparently these two are made for each other, athletically speaking -- that's the key, isn't it?)
Last edited by Master Po on Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:05 pm

exdrake wrote:Don't misread me--I'm very pro-Salazar and Rupp, et al...

But MANY have left him (A. Goucher, K. Goucher, Webb, O'Lionaird, I'm forgettin the new female pro (ex-Tennessee? who moved on to texas when Salazar's former asst left for there, etc--and never with any public reason stated that I know of). Many have gone to the Schumaker group. In recent long interview with A. Goucher he twice said he regretted ever going to Salazar (but not the move to Oregon from Colorado) but didn't say why--and exasperatingly--the interviewer didn't even attempt to ask. i wonder if he blames A.S. for the last of his injury years?

I have to beleive it's his 24/7 live the life take on the training but that is sheer speculation cuz noone ever says. That is also not a shot, in the least at A.S. Esp. once Kara G had a child it may no longer have been the right fit (my only other theory/guess. there is that without Begley (there's another who left A.S. after he trained her to an olympic berth) she had no training mate and now has S. Flanagan.


I am glad that someone has mentioned that quite a few, especially AW, came and went.

Also in regards to Gold and Silver in the 10. While a great feat, the East Africans who run track these days are not like the old days, especially Bekele, who looked like a shadow of himself.

Salazar and his gang can afford to run on the track while for the East Africans these days the road to riches goes straight to the marathon and does not pass Go i.e. the track. Not a critique of those guys getting the medals but I think a true picture of the situation in distance running these days.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby exdrake » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:21 pm

Agree Master Po and Conor--none of what I wrote was a criticism of A.S. at all--I'm emphasizing my sheer uber-curiousity. I'm a huge fan of Salazar and Rupp and rad/liked very much Salazar's book.

For example the recent departure of the ex-tennessee girl (she went to high school right here in South Florida I think but name escaping me may well have followed A.S.'s asst as maybe he was training her day-to-day whilst A.S. was more consumed by Farah/Rupp.

Again, because nooene ver says why they have left another of my guesses is they possibly believe A.S. is more consumed by Farah/Rupp. Sheer speculation again.

But, I have to say (if I have my facts and recollection correct)...didn't A.S. coach O'Lionaird to a very surprising Oly Final (did he take last or close to it in that race?). Then, seemingly all of a sudden, he's up the road training under Schumaker when he could have had Centro as training partner.

I've always figured Webb was just to impatient for Salazar's methods and that season wanted to jump into races unready for so I don't read much into that example at all. Webb has vagabonded back and forth across the country in thehopes of finding......
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby az2004 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:23 pm

i think we have to have a proper fit between the coach and athlete

rupp has been with salazar since before oregon

cain can follow the same model, althoug ruuning at college migth differ

as long as the athlete feels comfortable, i'm fine whatever they do
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby Master Po » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:34 pm

conor -- I know from reading your posts for years on here that you know much, much more than I ever will. I read your posts and learn from them and respect what you write. (And I don't expect to persuade you, and I am not seeking argument.) But on this point, I can agree only on the most general level -- it's true that competition right now isn't the same as it was a few years ago. But, Rupp is fulfilling his potential in a way that is fantastic to observe, and I don't want to damn him with faint praise -- I think he is doing much more than succeeding against second rate athletes. This event today is just one moment -- and of course it can be diminished in various ways, too (it's an indoor 3k, nobody races it, it isn't a championship, who cares). But -- Rupp has put himself on an all-time list among some great, great athletes. Of the 11 performances ahead of his 7:30.16 today, 8 are winning performances, and 6 of those 8 are by Komen and Gebrselassie. Only 4 runners have gone faster than Rupp today in winning an indoor 3k, and two of those four (Komen, Geb) are among the GOATs. Rupp is ahead of K. Bekele, El G, Lagat, on this list. Is he as great as those? No. But he is doing great things. The context of the times in which he runs are what they are -- he isn't competing against Komen, Geb, Bekele at his best, etc. But he is running great times, and today's 7:30.16 -- and it's place on the all-time list is evidence of this. I have been around decades of conversations in which we reminded ourselves over and over about how USA distance runners can't compete with the Africans, and now that someone can, it seems we won't let ourselves appreciate what this one is actually doing. (But I know we disagree on what the "actually" part represents.) :)
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby exdrake » Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:58 pm

Agree whole-heartedly Master Po--your sentiments eloquenlty echo that which I posted on the Stockholm results thread a moment ago.

It is thrilling to see and, as i posted there, it's a shame we haven't had a healthy Solinsky in the mix the past 2y.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby kuha » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:02 pm

I agree with M. Po's sentiment--Rupp REALLY is GOOD; no excuses are needed for him, at all. However, Conor is entirely correct: the global standards for the 5 and 10 do seem weaker than in past years. A logical explanation--as he says--is that a higher percentage of top young Africans are skipping the track to go straight to the roads/marathon.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby aaronk » Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:19 pm

Re: Salazar and Cain.
If coaching is what's given her the records she's run this year, then a HUGE assist must go to John Henwood, Cain's coach-in-residence!!
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:01 pm

Don't get me wrong. I think Salazar has been wonderful for Rupp. The guy is amazing with a wonderful range. And a Duck at that! I was just trying to put into some sort of perspective and not really trying to criticize. But it is obvious the track is not where it is at for the East Africans anymore. Which is too bad but I don't blame them for going where the loot is.

PS. Mr. Po. I appreciate your comments.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby TN1965 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:56 pm

exdrake wrote:For example the recent departure of the ex-tennessee girl (she went to high school right here in South Florida I think but name escaping me may well have followed A.S.'s asst as maybe he was training her day-to-day whilst A.S. was more consumed by Farah/Rupp.


The runner you are referring to is Jackie Areson, and her coach is Steve Magness.

A few other things. O'lionaird is training under Mark Rowland at OTC Eugene, not Schumacher (OTC Portland). And Kara made an announcement on her blog that she was moving to Schumacher's group so that she could train with Shalane.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:34 pm

(East) Africans = Kenyans?
I expect Ethiopia to keep it's young stars on the track.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby gh » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:41 pm

kuha wrote:I agree with M. Po's sentiment--Rupp REALLY is GOOD; no excuses are needed for him, at all. However, Conor is entirely correct: the global standards for the 5 and 10 do seem weaker than in past years. A logical explanation--as he says--is that a higher percentage of top young Africans are skipping the track to go straight to the roads/marathon.


Of course, when global standards fall off in the throws it's because, unlike distance runners, we know they're all on dope, right? (just thought somebody should mention the 500-pound gorilla over t here in the corner)
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby lionelp1 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:41 am

gh wrote:
kuha wrote:I agree with M. Po's sentiment--Rupp REALLY is GOOD; no excuses are needed for him, at all. However, Conor is entirely correct: the global standards for the 5 and 10 do seem weaker than in past years. A logical explanation--as he says--is that a higher percentage of top young Africans are skipping the track to go straight to the roads/marathon.


Of course, when global standards fall off in the throws it's because, unlike distance runners, we know they're all on dope, right? (just thought somebody should mention the 500-pound gorilla over t here in the corner)


We do wonder these days whether the dope salesmen have been having a fruitful time in Kenya. :(
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby John G » Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:51 am

kuha wrote:Conor is entirely correct: the global standards for the 5 and 10 do seem weaker than in past years.


I can see that argument for the 10k - there's a new generation of 2:04/2:05 marathon runners in their early 20s who have barely set foot on a track. I'm sure that if they hadn't been attracted by the big money on the roads, Mo and Rupp would have faced a greater test than that provided by Tariku Bekele last year.

The case for arguing that the 5k is 'weak' seems harder to make. Look at the all-time list: the 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th fastest men all come from last year. All four can get faster (the oldest is 22). Mo's name isn't amongst them and he can certainly run 12:4x, as can Lagat and Rupp. So that's 7 men currently who we know can run 12:4x.

Granted, there doesn't appear currently to be a Geb, Bekele or Komen able to run 12:3x but we still don't know how good a lot of these guys are and then of course there's the factor gh alluded to (shouldn't the mods give that guy a warning for such a comment? :) )
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby mikli » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:19 am

John G wrote:
kuha wrote:Conor is entirely correct: the global standards for the 5 and 10 do seem weaker than in past years.


I can see that argument for the 10k - there's a new generation of 2:04/2:05 marathon runners in their early 20s who have barely set foot on a track. I'm sure that if they hadn't been attracted by the big money on the roads, Mo and Rupp would have faced a greater test than that provided by Tariku Bekele last year.

The case for arguing that the 5k is 'weak' seems harder to make. Look at the all-time list: the 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th fastest men all come from last year. All four can get faster (the oldest is 22). Mo's name isn't amongst them and he can certainly run 12:4x, as can Lagat and Rupp. So that's 7 men currently who we know can run 12:4x.

Granted, there doesn't appear currently to be a Geb, Bekele or Komen able to run 12:3x but we still don't know how good a lot of these guys are and then of course there's the factor gh alluded to (shouldn't the mods give that guy a warning for such a comment? :) )


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31194:

In terms of yearly top20 averages, top20 years as of 2012:

5000m
2012 12:55,61 1st
2005 12:55,81
2006 12:55,84
2010 12:56,38
2003 12:57,39
2004 12:57,47
2000 12:58,05
2009 12:58,20
2011 12:58,52
1997 12:59,36
1999 12:59,66
1996 12:59,80
1998 13:00,08
2007 13:00,31
2008 13:01,44
2001 13:01,51
2002 13:02,25
1995 13:02,95
1993 13:08,04
1994 13:08,48

10000m
2011 26.54,88
2007 26.59,97
2005 27.02,08
2012 27.03,89 4th
2008 27.04,64
2004 27.07,36
2003 27.11,22
2006 27.11,72
2009 27.13,62
2010 27.18,47
1998 27.18,93
2002 27.20,15
1999 27.20,42
1997 27.20,64
1995 27.24,47
1996 27.25,62
2000 27.25,85
2001 27.26,00
1993 27.29,72
1988 27.37,40
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby John G » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:43 am

So the strength in depth is certainly there! Without the distraction of an Olympics we should see some really fast races this year. I'm actually more excited by seeing what Mo can do in a paced 5 and 10 than by Moscow (and I uually much prefer 'cat and mouse' at the champs to record chases)

12:40 - 12:45 and 26:30 - 26:40 for Mo
12:45 - 12:50 and 26:30 - 26:40 for Rupp.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby kuha » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:19 am

gh wrote:Of course, when global standards fall off in the throws it's because, unlike distance runners, we know they're all on dope, right? (just thought somebody should mention the 500-pound gorilla over t here in the corner)


We're not saying that the "collective" quality of distance running has gone down. We're saying that relatively MORE of it is in the marathon than on the track. The depth of recent marathon results says either that a) the same gorilla is there, despite all the testing being done; or b) the gorilla is greatly overrated. Or perhaps c) all the above.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby kuha » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:29 am

Thanks to Mikli for the averages (above) which are interesting, for sure.

I wonder, however, whether 20 is so deep that it hides what is happening at the top (where the championship medals come from). I wonder what an average of the top 5 or 6 performers per year would show? if it's the same trend, then our presumption is clearly wrong.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:44 am

gh wrote:
kuha wrote:I agree with M. Po's sentiment--Rupp REALLY is GOOD; no excuses are needed for him, at all. However, Conor is entirely correct: the global standards for the 5 and 10 do seem weaker than in past years. A logical explanation--as he says--is that a higher percentage of top young Africans are skipping the track to go straight to the roads/marathon.


Of course, when global standards fall off in the throws it's because, unlike distance runners, we know they're all on dope, right? (just thought somebody should mention the 500-pound gorilla over t here in the corner)


The difference of course track guys have the marathon to go to which has improved greatly lately. Weight guys only have football....which has more like a 5000 lb gorilla.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby aaronk » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:35 am

There's a news headline on Yahoo that states:

Salazar signs management plan for Alaska Reserve

My first thought was.....

Did Al give up coaching??

Nope!!
Yahoo was talking about KEN Salazar, Secretary of the Interior!!

WHEW!!! :shock:
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby mikli » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:38 am

kuha wrote:I wonder, however, whether 20 is so deep that it hides what is happening at the top (where the championship medals come from). I wonder what an average of the top 5 or 6 performers per year would show? if it's the same trend, then our presumption is clearly wrong.


Top5, top50 years:

5000m
1997 12:47,5
2004 12:48,1
2012 12:48,2 3rd
2005 12:49,1
2007 12:50,4
2006 12:51,0
2003 12:51,3
1996 12:51,4
2000 12:51,8
1998 12:52,6
2010 12:52,7
2008 12:53,1
1999 12:53,7
2011 12:54,1
1995 12:55,0
2009 12:55,1
2002 12:57,2
2001 12:58,6
1994 13:01,5
1993 13:04,2
1992 13:06,3
1982 13:06,7
1990 13:07,6
1985 13:08,1
1984 13:08,6
1991 13:08,8
1989 13:08,9
1987 13:09,3
1986 13:09,7
1981 13:11,5
1977 13:14,0
1988 13:14,9
1978 13:14,9
1979 13:15,4
1983 13:15,6
1976 13:15,8
1980 13:17,7
1972 13:17,8
1974 13:19,0
1973 13:19,8
1975 13:21,6
1970 13:25,6
1971 13:26,2
1965 13:28,1
1966 13:28,1
1968 13:30,1
1967 13:32,8
1969 13:33,3
1964 13:39,7
1960 13:43,5

10000m
2005 26:36,3
2003 26:40,8
2004 26:43,0
2011 26:46,0
2008 26:47,8
2006 26:48,2
1997 26:48,3
2007 26:48,5
2002 26:50,6
1998 26:52,5
2009 26:54,2
2012 26:54,9 12th
1996 26:59,1
1999 27:02,1
1995 27:03,2
2010 27:04,7
2000 27:11,1
1993 27:11,8
2001 27:12,1
1994 27:12,7
1989 27:19,0
1991 27:19,9
1990 27:23,5
1988 27:23,7
1992 27:24,6
1982 27:25,7
1983 27:27,1
1984 27:29,3
1978 27:29,3
1986 27:32,8
1987 27:32,9
1977 27:36,6
1980 27:37,0
1981 27:37,4
1979 27:39,7
1985 27:40,5
1972 27:43,7
1976 27:45,5
1975 27:47,8
1974 27:52,2
1973 27:53,1
1971 27:53,6
1968 28:04,3
1969 28:10,2
1965 28:11,9
1970 28:12,6
1966 28:16,1
1964 28:28,0
1967 28:30,3
1960 28:36,3

Marathon:
2011 2:03:38
2012 2:04:27 2nd
2009 2:04:53
2010 2:05:02
2008 2:05:09
2003 2:05:42
2002 2:06:06
2007 2:06:14
1999 2:06:24
2006 2:06:31
2004 2:06:36
2000 2:07:01
1998 2:07:02
2005 2:07:02
2001 2:07:11
1988 2:07:30
1997 2:07:35
1994 2:07:44
1985 2:07:47
1995 2:08:03
1986 2:08:08
1992 2:08:28
1996 2:08:31
1983 2:08:45
1989 2:08:47
1990 2:08:50
1984 2:09:01
1982 2:09:12
1991 2:09:15
1981 2:09:17
1993 2:09:19
1987 2:09:45
1980 2:09:46
1979 2:10:12
1978 2:10:12
1975 2:10:49
1969 2:10:51
1976 2:10:59
1970 2:11:00
1974 2:11:03
1972 2:11:57
1973 2:12:02
1967 2:12:18
1971 2:12:24
1977 2:12:33
1968 2:12:47
1964 2:14:06
1965 2:14:24
1966 2:14:37
1963 2:15:13
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby kevinsdad » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:02 am

For those arguing that a talent shift to the marathon explains the success of Farah and Rupp in last year's olympics, maybe it's time to name names. Who among the present top marathoners would likely have replaced a London 5 or 10K medallist but for the shift in distance? Put otherwise, who among the present crop of top marathoners could have presented a tougher challenge to the medallists than the London 4th place finishers, Lagat and K. Bekele? None is my guess.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:13 am

kevinsdad wrote:For those arguing that a talent shift to the marathon explains the success of Farah and Rupp in last year's olympics, maybe it's time to name names. Who among the present top marathoners would likely have replaced a London 5 or 10K medallist but for the shift in distance? Put otherwise, who among the present crop of top marathoners could have presented a tougher challenge to the medallists than the London 4th place finishers, Lagat and K. Bekele? None is my guess.


What names? Who knows. So many are going straight to the marathon now, that it is impossible to assess their 10k talent. As for Bekele, I thought he has looked like a shadow of his old self for quite a while lately. I wasn't surprised at all he didn't medal.

And even if it is a talent shift, it is only part of the story. Farah and Rupp are marvelous athletes and deserve their success.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:36 am

Conor Dary wrote:
kevinsdad wrote:For those arguing that a talent shift to the marathon explains the success of Farah and Rupp in last year's olympics, maybe it's time to name names. Who among the present top marathoners would likely have replaced a London 5 or 10K medallist but for the shift in distance? Put otherwise, who among the present crop of top marathoners could have presented a tougher challenge to the medallists than the London 4th place finishers, Lagat and K. Bekele? None is my guess.


What names? Who knows. So many are going straight to the marathon now, that it is impossible to assess their 10k talent. As for Bekele, I thought he has looked like a shadow of his old self for quite a while lately. I wasn't surprised at all he didn't medal.

And even if it is a talent shift, it is only part of the story. Farah and Rupp are marvelous athletes and deserve their success.


Bekele seems to have been injured and lost "it" since 2010. I think he was running in 2012 to support his brothers chances and to keep his profile up so he still gets big sponsorship dosh. After all he's invested a lot of his funds in that centre in Ethiopia.

From a British point of view it was still great having him in the race as it kinda symbolises the batton being passed on and still kept me on an edge knowing how great he was and wondering if he's still got it and could still release it.

As for using the 5000m and 10000m times, they are of limited value in comparing quality of championships as tactical races are more likely to occur to suit certain favourites, help teams and strong kickers.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby exdrake » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:44 am

TN1965 wrote:
exdrake wrote:For example the recent departure of the ex-tennessee girl (she went to high school right here in South Florida I think but name escaping me may well have followed A.S.'s asst as maybe he was training her day-to-day whilst A.S. was more consumed by Farah/Rupp.


The runner you are referring to is Jackie Areson, and her coach is Steve Magness.

A few other things. O'lionaird is training under Mark Rowland at OTC Eugene, not Schumacher (OTC Portland). And Kara made an announcement on her blog that she was moving to Schumacher's group so that she could train with Shalane.


1. Yes Areson, yes Magness--thanks for both.

2. Yes, Rowland--I saw the Flotrack interview days ago and forgot that-- a great coach too.

3. That last re Kara G. kinda begs the question(s) tho. Also, she did say once she decided to leave salazar she looked at all potential running enclaves nationwide and finally decided to go to Portland/Flanagan group. That is not the same as making the decsion to break with Salazar for the reason she wished to train with Flanagan. What she decided to do vs. the why of leaving Salazar.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby TN1965 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:55 am

Bruce Kritzler wrote:(East) Africans = Kenyans?
I expect Ethiopia to keep it's young stars on the track.


I certainly agree with this. When I see the likes of Gebremeskel and Alamirew deserting the track at a young age, then I believe the Ethiopian talent is moving to the road. Lelisa Desisa (13:22/27:11) recently made a marathon debut at age 23, but it is not clear whether he is gone from track for good. Gebremariam made the Olympic 10K team last year after running a few marathons.

I also think there is a difference between 5K and 10K. There are many road racers who also run 10K on track. (Wilson Kiprop, Lucas Rotich, Geoffrey Kipsang and Peter Kirui are prime examples.) This is partly because there are few 10K track races, but the ability needed to run a fast 10K is a bit different from the 5K.

And finally, I think Geb and Bekele were outliers. The quality at the very top is lower now, because those two had elevated it to an unrealistic level. The quality at the very top in 1500m is lower than it was in late 1990s, and the quality at the top in 800m was lower between Kipketer and Rudisha. But we were not losing any middle distance talent to road races. Those are (were) just interval between exceptional talents.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:41 pm

I think the 10k numbers being posted are a bit skewed by the fact that there are far fewer open races for athletes to run on the track. This is likely another reason that certain athletes have moved to the road more. While the 5k is still very popular, the 10k is almost obsolete with the exception of championship races.

While many of these marathoners may run excellent track 10ks, I doubt many of them would be competitive at the top level in the 5k.

The times today are still fast, but, I think comparing them to the greats of recent past is misleading. Some of those guys were chasing records as the records in those days were rather soft. They are at a very high level now. Rarely do we see guys chasing times. In the right races, I believe we could possibly see sub 12:40 and sub 26:30. The latter being so difficult now because of lack of racing opportunities. Getting the right conditions is difficult enough not to mention having so few opportunities.

In looking at times we also fail to appreciate other telling aspects, namely, the finishing prowess of the likes of Farah, and even what Rupp is now beginning to approach. Being able to finish races in 52, 53 and 1:55, or a final 4 laps in the times these guys are doing favor very favorably with the very best of all time. They may not be quite to the level of Bekele at his very best, but they aren't far behind now from where he was at in his prime. To me that is more indicative of their overall quality than times. The 5k last year with all the sub 12:50's showed that in the right race, there are a lot of quality athletes. Some of those athletes in that same sub 12:50 race were blown away by Farah and Rupp just weeks earlier at Pre.

Lastly, I find it a bit amusing about how everyone has been so in awe of the East Africans that at the point others get to this level they can only believe it is happening because the quality has now dropped. :(
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:01 pm

odelltrclan wrote:

Lastly, I find it a bit amusing about how everyone has been so in awe of the East Africans that at the point others get to this level they can only believe it is happening because the quality has now dropped. :(


Considering they were running 7:20, 12:37, 26:22 16 and 17 years ago and pretty much transformed the sport, yea, I would say I was in awe.

And it isn't just because Rupp is running well now. Kennedy was running at that level 17 years ago and those guys were just as awe inspiring. It just that the marathon has been a boom lately, syphoning talent, I believe, from the 10k. The 5k, I admit, is another story. The fast twitch 5k guys, like say El G, probably wouldn't be that great at the marathon.

As I said, Rupp is an amazing runner and fun to watch. I think he can get down to around 12:40 and 26:20. Super times no matter who the competition is.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:27 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Considering they were running 7:20, 12:37, 26:22 16 and 17 years ago and pretty much transformed the sport, yea, I would say I was in awe.


Yes Conor, those performances were (and are) awe inspiring, but my problem is with the word "they" especially as it is being used in context of the conversation of this thread. D Komen and K Bekele, were two of the greatest of all time. There were not many in history at that level among the Ethiopians and Kenyans. It is kind of like saying the NBA is at a much lower level today because Michael Jordan is not playing anymore. We may never see another Bekele again. But "they" were not all doing it, a select few were. And judging by the finishing prowess of Mo Farah, he is not all that far behind Bekele. He simply was running for championships, and not attempting records. I suspect he could have come up with some awe inspiring times, if that was what his intentions were. Farah's times for the final 2000 on in to the final 400 are very comparable to Bekele's when he was king of the hill. Were these guys (Farah & Rupp and several others) to be in the right races, I think they could be in the low 12:40's and 26:20's this year.

So what I am saying is just because Farah and Rupp are near the top of the world right now, it isn't just because the Kenyans have moved to the roads, though certainly, that is a factor for Kenya not having athletes at the top of the 10k world right now WITH Farah and Rupp.
Last edited by odelltrclan on Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:40 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
So what I am saying is just because Farah and Rupp are near the top of the world right now, it isn't just because the Kenyans have moved to the roads, though certainly, that is a factor for Kenya not having athletes at the top of the 10k world right now WITH Farah and Rupp.


Had the Ethiopian's been moving to the road than you may have had a point. However as ever present as they are the Kenyan's have hardly been top dog in the 10,000 for decades. There has been one Kenyan 10,000m world champ in 20 years and there hasn't been an Olympic 10,000m champion since the 1960's. I almost feel Ethiopian's get their distance Track achievements downgraded by being called the generic East African's and Kenya's goes up on the track in distance events. Ethiopia has dominated Kenya for decades, now Farah and Rupp appear to be topping the Ethiopian's it is fair to say it's isn't because East African's are disinterested in the track now when the country that matters is still there with their best offerings.
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Re: All Hail Salazar!

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:03 pm

kevinsdad wrote:For those arguing that a talent shift to the marathon explains the success of Farah and Rupp in last year's olympics, maybe it's time to name names. Who among the present top marathoners would likely have replaced a London 5 or 10K medallist but for the shift in distance? Put otherwise, who among the present crop of top marathoners could have presented a tougher challenge to the medallists than the London 4th place finishers, Lagat and K. Bekele? None is my guess.

The only name I can think of period is a healthy Ibrahim Jeilan, and he's not a marathoner. His last lap in Daegu makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up every time I watch it.
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