26mi235 wrote:If a collegian is red-shirting, is it still a collegiate record? This is the situation that has some similarity to Cain's current status; it is not the same, however.
I don't think a red-shirting athlete should be able to get a record when they're not in college when we wouldn't think the same way of an athlete who declares pro after high school. if so, would allyson felix qualify? She was in college taking courses and the only thing different is she was getting paid legally for her services, something many collegiates have received under the table.
Felix lost her NCAA eligibility by going pro, and she wasn't taking a full-time load of classes 2 semesters a year. A redshirted athlete is still a full-time student with remaining NCAA eligibility.
I do understand that; however, suppose there was an athlete that went to college and didn't run for the school, but also didn't turn pro (let's make this person a 10k runner) and they ran faster than the collegiate record...would it be a collegiate record? And, how would this be different from the current Cain situation (she doesn't run for her team yet she is setting "high school"records).
That's basically exactly what I have been asking...
ATK wrote:So what happens in a scenario where a college athlete leaves his college team for whatever reason, but does not go pro. they remain unattached and run as an open athlete, but still remain in school. Would they be eligible for College records if they broke one?
Go back to the narrower case of a student taking a 'red-shirt'. That is, they are on the team, they train with the team. They are not off competing on their own, they have full access to the team facilities etc., but they cannot travel with the team except for at their own expense.
For instance, from the Wisconsin website, there is this piece on Lihrman. This one is a little different in that he transferred from UW-Stout (a DIII school, not generally used for College Records, but I am not certain) and has not yet competed for Wisconsin; he has two years of indoor and outdoor eligibility remaining.
"Fellow thrower Michael Lihrman also had a noteworthy performance for the Badgers, breaking the facility record at The Shell with a heave of 70-10 3/4 to win the weight throw. The junior, competing unattached, would have easily topped UW’s school record if he were competing in a UW uniform.
Even so, the mark broke The Shell record of 70-9 set by Jon Pullum of Purdue in 2008 and ranks as the No. 7 performance by an American this season."
26mi235 wrote:Go back to the narrower case of a student taking a 'red-shirt'. That is, they are on the team, they train with the team. They are not off competing on their own, they have full access to the team facilities etc., but they cannot travel with the team except for at their own expense...
Makes sense and is a good scenario. Which seems to be the whole gripe here. Since their records wouldn't count (I assume), why do Cains, and other HS athletes competing unattached?
I think the performance divide between HS and College may have some meaning. HS athletes are (generally) not seen as world class, but once college comes, you are basically competing with world class athletes. If a HS record is broken, it is usually compared with HS times (obviously depending on the record). If a college record is broken, Your automatically talking about Wolrd/olympic final or medal potential. Just my thoughs
I would say college-to-open is more like National Class. However, in the sprints that just about means World Class and that is where we see many of those that opt out of college early. It is interesting that in the US there are now a number of athletes for which this is not the sprints (or will not be): Jager, Ajee Wilson, Cain?, Rupp [who then went back into the school system]. These are in areas that can get sponsorship; the throws and many field events in general, there is not so much support.
The HS scenario is more clear-cut. There are criteria for eligibility (can't turn 20 until Sept 1 after graduation) that allows someone like Mary to NOT compete for her team, but still allow T&FN to treat her as a HSer. An iffy case would be a home-schooled kid, who doesn't have the academic credentials (GPA>2.0) to verify her eligibility. College is much more complex, with issues like limited enrollment, student-visa, never-went-out-for-the-team, etc..
halharkness wrote:Gary, once your stop laughing, tell me why there are differing standards for listing records from one level to another in the same publication?
If you have been around the sport awhile, like decades, then it is pretty obvious. Years ago, especially in the 1970's the foreigners were a big deal. The UTEP and WSU guys, like Rono, taking all of the collegiate marks. So it made sense to have an American list. That has not been a problem in high school.
And to think the NCAA cares about TandFNews, is comical. In NCAAland, Track is equivalent to Pluto and TandFnews is a moon of Pluto, all revolving around the Sun, aka, Football.....
If your referring to (f you have been around the sport awhile, like decades, then it is pretty obvious) regarding halharkness ... then he's 'been around' T&F for nearly 60 yrs - at just about all levels, if memory serves, and I am pretty sure it does. His thinking about this is not without some breadth of experience.
no one wrote:If your referring to (f you have been around the sport awhile, like decades, then it is pretty obvious) regarding halharkness ... then he's 'been around' T&F for nearly 60 yrs - at just about all levels, if memory serves, and I am pretty sure it does. His thinking about this is not without some breadth of experience.
Yes, I have been around for a while. Somehow my original point is lost or being ignored. Look in the Records section and check the Collegiate lists. Note there are two tables, the first contains marks made during the regular collegiate season up through the NCAA Meet. The second contains marks made outside the regular collegiate season.
I am not questioning nationality or any other condition other than consistency in criteria for having T&FN recognize and categorize records from on level to another. Mary Cain poses a particular problem if she chooses not to participate this spring for her school and run only in open meets against older, experienced competition. Where do you put her marks?