GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m


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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:44 am

There are so many people who stick with the sprints when they should move up.

Grace Jackson never ran 400m at champs, Muriel Hurtis left it too late, Marlon and Christian should have done it

Imagine what Vernicha would have done :(
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby samthemainman » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:16 am

Vernicha could have been awesome. I remember her 4x100m 3rd legs were always really good - we had a brief spell in her era where our 4x100m girls were posted a couple of sub 43 times over 2001-2002.

I think she ran a couple of 4x4 legs - sub 52s (A 51.69 in the 2002 WJs) -- but alas it wasn't to be. What about Amy Spencer???? Another one we lost out on seeing mature. She ran a good indoor 400m leg in 2003... then disappeared.

There is some good historical split data here from pre-2006 (shame the site wasn't maintained):

http://gbrathletics.com/uk/
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:39 am

samthemainman wrote:Vernicha could have been awesome. I remember her 4x100m 3rd legs were always really good - we had a brief spell in her era where our 4x100m girls were posted a couple of sub 43 times over 2001-2002.

I think she ran a couple of 4x4 legs - sub 52s (A 51.69 in the 2002 WJs) -- but alas it wasn't to be. What about Amy Spencer???? Another one we lost out on seeing mature. She ran a good indoor 400m leg in 2003... then disappeared.

There is some good historical split data here from pre-2006 (shame the site wasn't maintained):

http://gbrathletics.com/uk/


Soon after Vernicha was rumoured to run a 50. something in a 4x4 (maybe when they won Euro Jnr in 01) she went up to Kathrine Merry and said "I'm gonna get you" Katherine thought it was hilarious
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby iain » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:16 am

Back to the topic :P
Squad for Euro Indoors as expected:
400m - Eilidh Child, Shana Cox, Perri Shakes-Drayton
4x400m - Child, Cox, Shakes-Drayton, Margaret Adeoye, Meghan Beesley, Christine Ohuruogu

Who would've guessed we'd be leaving a 53.2 girl at home :O
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby peach77 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:29 am

Did Marge Adeoye not want to be selected for the 400? Only I'd have LOVED to have seen her have a go at it after the weekend and see what she could do. Might have given her a good idea whether to try for the outdoors at that event too...
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:42 am

Yes, it is sometimes interesting seeing what the sprinters will do in the 4x400. Last year at the NCAA meet English Gardner (she is American, not English :) ), who won the 100, ran a stunning 50.x leg in the 4x400 (outdoor).
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:12 am

peach77 wrote:Did Marge Adeoye not want to be selected for the 400? Only I'd have LOVED to have seen her have a go at it after the weekend and see what she could do. Might have given her a good idea whether to try for the outdoors at that event too...


She couldn't be selected Shana cane 2nd at trials and had QT :(
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby samthemainman » Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:24 pm

Shana seems like a nice girl but last year she went backwards -- didn't she do a 52.7 opener for us in the Olympic 4x4 final??

I reckon she'll end up in the Gothernburg 4x4 squad regardless to be honest unless she bombs out - though she's clearly number 5 or 6 in the pecking order.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby iain » Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:56 pm

She did a 52.6 (poor) although to be fair to her she was in the outside lane and ran a 51.6 lead off in the heat. I actually half think UKA might get it right for once. Tempting fate there :P
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:01 am

Exactly
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:28 am

No, I think that they have their cross products all wrong because in this group multiplication is not cummutative and many of those "a"s need to be moved further back in the order...
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby John G » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:00 am

peach77 wrote:Did Marge Adeoye not want to be selected for the 400? Only I'd have LOVED to have seen her have a go at it after the weekend and see what she could do. Might have given her a good idea whether to try for the outdoors at that event too...



I was at the NIA and she looked silky smooth. I know appearances can be deceptive but I thought she could have gone past Beesley earlier and run several tenths faster than her 52.45. My first thought was that she could do a Jon Regis for us in the relay. 3rd leg would be perfect. The 2nd leg needs an experienced relay runner (like Nicola) to handle the break from lanes and the 1st leg needs someone with the experience of the distance to focus on their own pace and not race too soon to close down the long stagger.

I thought she could have run 52.1. The tight bends cost her at least 0.5. Then factor in 0.7 for a rolling start and you're looking at a 50.x relay runner in the summer.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:05 am

I've just had a rather worrying but predictable condo with a a very well know UK coach, who tells me that powers that be are considering running Shana here in Gothenburg ??

Apparently Margaret is a 'risk' and they want to play it safe

WTFF
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby t_monk » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:28 am

Late to the discussion but Russia isn't fielding a 4x400 team? I am going through the start list and there seem to be only a handful of Russians competing at all. Focusing on Moscow?
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby az2004 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:22 am

the russians have 2nd line girls in the 400

although klishina is lj andd has the lead now

their 1500 who had wr and was out for blood doping did run he 1500, she needs racing

suspect in moscow their 4X4 will be very tough
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:55 am

t_monk wrote:Late to the discussion but Russia isn't fielding a 4x400 team? I am going through the start list and there seem to be only a handful of Russians competing at all. Focusing on Moscow?



They have very much brought the 'C' team so I'm guessing they are focused on Moscow naturally.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby samthemainman » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:27 pm

Mump - I'm not surprised by your comment on Margaret/Shana but I hope you're wrong (as I'm sure you are too). Shana will be a lot more experienced - but come on UKA, this is a Euro Indoor 4x400m. Margaret's in great form, Shana isn't. Stick her on a middle leg - what have you got to worry about? Providing she doesn't go shooting off I don't get the risk. Put Shana on 1st and she's the kind of runner that will always hand over in 3rd....
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:58 pm

samthemainman wrote:Mump - I'm not surprised by your comment on Margaret/Shana but I hope you're wrong (as I'm sure you are too). Shana will be a lot more experienced - but come on UKA, this is a Euro Indoor 4x400m. Margaret's in great form, Shana isn't. Stick her on a middle leg - what have you got to worry about? Providing she doesn't go shooting off I don't get the risk. Put Shana on 1st and she's the kind of runner that will always hand over in 3rd....


It's politics

Who's Shana's coach ??
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby athlete101 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:38 pm

mump boy wrote:
samthemainman wrote:Mump - I'm not surprised by your comment on Margaret/Shana but I hope you're wrong (as I'm sure you are too). Shana will be a lot more experienced - but come on UKA, this is a Euro Indoor 4x400m. Margaret's in great form, Shana isn't. Stick her on a middle leg - what have you got to worry about? Providing she doesn't go shooting off I don't get the risk. Put Shana on 1st and she's the kind of runner that will always hand over in 3rd....


It's politics

Who's Shana's coach ??


No longer with Lloyd Cowan so that argument will not hold. She is now back working in the States.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby peach77 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:15 am

I honestly can't believe they're going to put Shana in over Marg- SURELY!? She's going to be tired (as will Perri and Elidh as well) and I can't fathom how someone with almost half a second on her and, more importantly, fresh legs would be ignored!

Oh hold on. It's British Athletics. As you were...
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby samthemainman » Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:15 am

Seriously if Margaret isn't in (I think she's LESS of a risk than TBO to be fair - at least she has actually run the 400m distance indoors!) we should all kick off big time in the form of MASS PROTEST.... what is such a risk about her? It must be politics as Mump says - is it in the form of 'If Shana's crossing the Atlantic, she has to be in the relay too' or something to do with coaches.

Let's see anyway... Why can't we take a risk.

On paper we should at the very least be able to make 2nd on the World All-time list of all girls run to form... that 2nd position is currently held by Australia if my memory serves me right.

With Shana on the team we'll get a 53 or 52.8 leg at best. No offence to Shana as she seems lovely but she's not in her 2011-early 2012 form.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Sun Mar 03, 2013 6:58 am

athlete101 wrote:
mump boy wrote:
samthemainman wrote:Mump - I'm not surprised by your comment on Margaret/Shana but I hope you're wrong (as I'm sure you are too). Shana will be a lot more experienced - but come on UKA, this is a Euro Indoor 4x400m. Margaret's in great form, Shana isn't. Stick her on a middle leg - what have you got to worry about? Providing she doesn't go shooting off I don't get the risk. Put Shana on 1st and she's the kind of runner that will always hand over in 3rd....


It's politics

Who's Shana's coach ??


No longer with Lloyd Cowan so that argument will not hold. She is now back working in the States.


But she was coached by Lloyd and when she's in the UK who does she train with ??
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby athlete101 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:27 am

I don't believe it is Lloyd. She left after the Olympics and this indoor would be her first return to the UK.

Its not political...UKA/BA wanted all individual athletes to run in the relay and gave them first refusal. Mens & Womens. Especially considering all three representatives made their respective Finals. For that reason alone I do not see any problem with that decision.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:57 am

athlete101 wrote:I don't believe it is Lloyd. She left after the Olympics and this indoor would be her first return to the UK.

Its not political...UKA/BA wanted all individual athletes to run in the relay and gave them first refusal. Mens & Womens. Especially considering all three representatives made their respective Finals. For that reason alone I do not see any problem with that decision.


Who are you, Shana's mum ? it's ludicrous

Not only is MA considerably faster but she is fresh and Shana only made final because someone fell over and someone else was DQ'd and ended up running outside 53.

Do you honestly think a hungry, fresh, faster MA would run worse in the relay ??

The fact that UKA wanted all individual athletes to run in relay makes is absolutely political. It's nothing to do with who has better form but ticking boxes. Shana's lucky she's even in the team through the trials MA is blatantly faster and has more speed which is key indoors
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby samthemainman » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:08 am

If Shana really has been chosen by default under first refusal, as a runner in the individual, it is indeed ludicrous. With that kind of strategy we would never have had medal winning performances in the past featuring John Regis, Kriss Akabusi or Jennifer Stoute to name but a few... they need to choose the best people. They can't be doing deals to say 'if you qualify for the individual you're a shoe in for the relay' - if your form sucks between the trials and relay day you're spoiling our chances. If this works for the outdoor season too - we're stuffed. We could get 3 qualifiers for the individual getting refusal so any 400 hurdler or 200m who could do a better job gets left on the sidelines?? Infuriating.

I see the running order on the website has been posted as Child, Cox, TBO and PSD. While it could be worse - Margaret would have been a secret weapon. Instead we have 3 tired athletes and 1 fresh legged TBO whose leg could go either way.... I have every faith they can win gold, but not as easily as with Adeoye. The Russian line up with be rock solid.

UKA/British Athletics --- sit up and listen please and stop these daft choices!!! Why pay people salaries when you have people on this forum who know the runners better.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby Ned Ryerson » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:15 am

mump boy wrote:It's politics

Who's Shana's coach ??


George Williams
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby athlete101 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:27 am

mump boy wrote:
athlete101 wrote:I don't believe it is Lloyd. She left after the Olympics and this indoor would be her first return to the UK.

Its not political...UKA/BA wanted all individual athletes to run in the relay and gave them first refusal. Mens & Womens. Especially considering all three representatives made their respective Finals. For that reason alone I do not see any problem with that decision.


Who are you, Shana's mum ? it's ludicrous

Not only is MA considerably faster but she is fresh and Shana only made final because someone fell over and someone else was DQ'd and ended up running outside 53.

Do you honestly think a hungry, fresh, faster MA would run worse in the relay ??

The fact that UKA wanted all individual athletes to run in relay makes is absolutely political. It's nothing to do with who has better form but ticking boxes. Shana's lucky she's even in the team through the trials MA is blatantly faster and has more speed which is key indoors


What precisely are you on about?! you asked a question, and i answered it. If you don't like my answer then dont respond with a childish and pathetic reply.

I havent in any part of my posts given an opinion about who will run quicker.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:57 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:
mump boy wrote:It's politics

Who's Shana's coach ??


George Williams


When she's in the US but Lloyd used to coach her when she was in UK. I'm wondering who she trains with when she's in UK now.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby lionelp1 » Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:31 am

The American Cox is frigging lucky to be in Goteberg; currently a 53 sec runner and it was a bad decision by the team selectors. Last year she managed a couple of performances which early in the season were in the States and this season she has NOT impressed.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:36 am

To be fair Shana can great in the relay 52.2, a lot better than the individual but that's not really the point
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby samthemainman » Sun Mar 03, 2013 10:52 am

Agreed on Shana on both counts - good run but not the point - pleased with all the girls overall. TBO ran a 51.8 I understand. Solid start from Eilidh after her final run and a good anchor as always from PSD.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby iain » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:36 pm

lionelp1 wrote:The American Cox is frigging lucky to be in Goteberg; currently a 53 sec runner and it was a bad decision by the team selectors. Last year she managed a couple of performances which early in the season were in the States and this season she has NOT impressed.

The team selectors had no choice, as she was top-2 in the trials with the standard. Also, don't call her 'the American' that path is well worn and just makes you seem bitter.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby eldanielfire » Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:47 pm

iain wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:The American Cox is frigging lucky to be in Goteberg; currently a 53 sec runner and it was a bad decision by the team selectors. Last year she managed a couple of performances which early in the season were in the States and this season she has NOT impressed.

The team selectors had no choice, as she was top-2 in the trials with the standard. Also, don't call her 'the American' that path is well worn and just makes you seem bitter.


I agree. It goes down the path of Mo Farah isn't British etc.

At the end of the day Cox ran a good leg in a team that broke the British and Championship record. There is no guarantee Adeyoe would go faster on the day and given the nature of indoor 400m runs she could have tripped, not worked out hoe to get around somebody or her lack of 400m experience meant she could have blown up in a championship race. Better than her have done it before.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby John G » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:13 am

mump boy wrote:
samthemainman wrote:Mump - I'm not surprised by your comment on Margaret/Shana but I hope you're wrong (as I'm sure you are too). Shana will be a lot more experienced - but come on UKA, this is a Euro Indoor 4x400m. Margaret's in great form, Shana isn't. Stick her on a middle leg - what have you got to worry about? Providing she doesn't go shooting off I don't get the risk. Put Shana on 1st and she's the kind of runner that will always hand over in 3rd....


It's politics

Who's Shana's coach ??


I think the identity of Margaret's coach may have been more of a factor. Christie's squad never seem to get any slack.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby John G » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:16 am

mump boy wrote:To be fair Shana can great in the relay 52.2, a lot better than the individual but that's not really the point


Off a rolling start, Margaret could have been expected to run mid-51s. Old news now though .. .. .. .. .

FWIW, I thought maybe Shana ran for the team in the individual. Considering the lane 1 draw I thought she ran a blinding first 200m and suspected she did so to get in the way of the Czech women. Not that PSD needed any help yesterday!!
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:19 am

eldanielfire wrote:
iain wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:The American Cox is frigging lucky to be in Goteberg; currently a 53 sec runner and it was a bad decision by the team selectors. Last year she managed a couple of performances which early in the season were in the States and this season she has NOT impressed.

The team selectors had no choice, as she was top-2 in the trials with the standard. Also, don't call her 'the American' that path is well worn and just makes you seem bitter.


I agree. It goes down the path of Mo Farah isn't British etc.

At the end of the day Cox ran a good leg in a team that broke the British and Championship record. There is no guarantee Adeyoe would go faster on the day and given the nature of indoor 400m runs she could have tripped, not worked out hoe to get around somebody or her lack of 400m experience meant she could have blown up in a championship race. Better than her have done it before.


Interesting here that Cox is running so much better in the 4x400 than in the open 400. Few of her compatriots do (though there have been some big exceptions, others are better informed here than am I). Note that Cox went through the US high school and college system that seems to turn out athletes that know how to run the 4x400.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby mump boy » Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:39 am

26mi235 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
iain wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:The American Cox is frigging lucky to be in Goteberg; currently a 53 sec runner and it was a bad decision by the team selectors. Last year she managed a couple of performances which early in the season were in the States and this season she has NOT impressed.

The team selectors had no choice, as she was top-2 in the trials with the standard. Also, don't call her 'the American' that path is well worn and just makes you seem bitter.


I agree. It goes down the path of Mo Farah isn't British etc.

At the end of the day Cox ran a good leg in a team that broke the British and Championship record. There is no guarantee Adeyoe would go faster on the day and given the nature of indoor 400m runs she could have tripped, not worked out hoe to get around somebody or her lack of 400m experience meant she could have blown up in a championship race. Better than her have done it before.


Interesting here that Cox is running so much better in the 4x400 than in the open 400. Few of her compatriots do (though there have been some big exceptions, others are better informed here than am I). Note that Cox went through the US high school and college system that seems to turn out athletes that know how to run the 4x400.


Normally i would agree with this but last year she ran a 52.6 opener for us in London. Only NGR started slower and it killed us :(
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby iain » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:27 am

26mi235 wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
iain wrote:
lionelp1 wrote:The American Cox is frigging lucky to be in Goteberg; currently a 53 sec runner and it was a bad decision by the team selectors. Last year she managed a couple of performances which early in the season were in the States and this season she has NOT impressed.

The team selectors had no choice, as she was top-2 in the trials with the standard. Also, don't call her 'the American' that path is well worn and just makes you seem bitter.


I agree. It goes down the path of Mo Farah isn't British etc.

At the end of the day Cox ran a good leg in a team that broke the British and Championship record. There is no guarantee Adeyoe would go faster on the day and given the nature of indoor 400m runs she could have tripped, not worked out hoe to get around somebody or her lack of 400m experience meant she could have blown up in a championship race. Better than her have done it before.


On the contrary I would say Shana is one of our poorest relay runners (though she did well yesterday)
Interesting here that Cox is running so much better in the 4x400 than in the open 400. Few of her compatriots do (though there have been some big exceptions, others are better informed here than am I). Note that Cox went through the US high school and college system that seems to turn out athletes that know how to run the 4x400.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby eldanielfire » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:41 am

mump boy wrote:
Normally i would agree with this but last year she ran a 52.6 opener for us in London. Only NGR started slower and it killed us :(


Ran out in lane 7, that is always tough. Wouldn't have affected the result anyway, there was USA, daylight, Russia and then Jamaica, daylight, the rest of the world.

As I said there is no definite guarantee Adeyoe would have done better than Cox and in championships experience is vital. At the end of the day Gold and a British and Championship record is as an outstanding result as you could hope for and Cox deserves credit for her role in that and in my opinion ensuring Perri and Eilidh got their medals. Cox all but ensured Hjelmer, Rosolova and Helnova were unable to maintain their speeds at the lane break giving them that gap. I'm certain Hjelmer and Rosonova would have found it easier to attack earlier without a sizable girl like Cox having run that first 260m and blocking their way. Though I was pleased all 3 athletes got a medal anyway in the championships.

Also IMO Cox isn't a great starter but a good second in relays and can hold a good position and make whomever is behind her expend too much energy getting around, an important tactic of 4x400m running when you have that position in a competitive race. The girl's team was sport on in my opinion.
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Re: GBR Women's Indoor 400m and 4x400m

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:50 am

eldanielfire wrote:
mump boy wrote:
Normally i would agree with this but last year she ran a 52.6 opener for us in London. Only NGR started slower and it killed us :(


Ran out in lane 7, that is always tough. Wouldn't have affected the result anyway, there was USA, daylight, Russia and then Jamaica, daylight, the rest of the world.


And it is the lead off leg, which does not have the same feel as the rest of the 4x400, since it is run with staggers that are even larger than the open 400 so it is hard to judge your efforts (indoors, of course, only has the first couple of turns in staggered).
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