TBO is Gonna Get You


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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby lionelp1 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:58 am

mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:I highly doubt Sanya is going to run as conservatively as she did in the Olympic final next year. If she's in shape, I expect her to run under 49.


She has NEVER run under 49 at a championships i don't know why she would start doing so next year

MAybe with her new race strategy and racing plan TBO will be running under 49 anyway :P She's certainly worth low 49's

What the heck is the meaning of "she's certainly worth low 49s", nonsensical phrase.TBO aint a piece of pottery or a painting!!
In track and field you have achieved or you have not achieved a specific time , espececially after 6 years at the top with OG Gold and Silver... being "worth" some time is a meaningless concept.... Does Mump think she WILL run under 49 or WILL run low 49s, if so, for goodness sake say so... but then sitting on the fence with "can" or "may" or "is capable of" is so much easier than a firm prediction
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby eldanielfire » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:06 am

Speedster wrote:A passionate debate as always from two athletes who have been controversial in the success and failure.

The 400m is still a sprint event and if Christine can drop her 100/200m PBs this season, significantly, I think going out harder might bring her more success. I read that she is racing more this year which means she could test out a new race plan in Diamond League races with increased pressure and competition.

That said, SRR still has the edge as her speed is that much better and she now has the Olympic Gold to complete her set of medals. I'd love to see her just run the 200m so see what's she is capable of but I think she'll double again.


Of course the differences in their style is interesting, SSR is more speed dependent and it's possible her speed will be on the decline in the next few years, TBO is more an even paced runner with tons of Speed endurance. When they hit their 30's I would expect Christine to be able to consistently run the 400m faster than Sanya regardless, it's just a case of when will Richards-Ross speed start declining enough? Will it be soon or in a couple of years.
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:38 am

For someone whose speed might decline in the next few years, the recent trend is rather different.
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby ATK » Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:01 am

eldanielfire wrote:TBO is more an even paced

Hardly.
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:40 pm

26mi235 wrote:For someone whose speed might decline in the next few years, the recent trend is rather different.

Sanya could conceivably maintain her top level in the 400 for the rest of this decade. Highly likely that she'll lose her mojo in the 100 and 200 before age starts to cramp her ability to break 50.00...

...That is, assuming you use Jarmila Kratochvílová as a benchmark to determine Sanya's longevity in the 400. Kratochvílová ran 47.99/1:53.28 at age 32, in a year (1983) when she could only muster 22.40.

There might come a point where Sanya might have trouble breaking 22.50, but a 23.7 opening split in the 400 will become even more comfortable for her. If I'm not mistaken, Jearl Miles-Clark never broke 23.00 in the 200, but her 400 PR was 49.40 (1997). She was almost 31 then, and she ran 49.98 a month short of her 33rd birthday. Sanya will be in good shape for the rest of this decade.

What is Big O's 200 PR? Assuming she has yet to break 22.80, getting even closer to 49.00 (or at least the U.K. NR) could be a much bigger burden for her with regard to the second-half of her race.
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby Gabriella » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:56 pm

I always preferred TBOs approach in 2008 when she ran 100s and 200s and came into Beijing as a bit of an enigma. Firstly it means she's focused and practiced on speed and secondly it leaves the other women guessing. When she competes on the circuit she shows her hand and the other women know they can beat her. But when she doesn't run 400s they will be wondering about her.

SRR has had a long time at the top of elite 400m running going back to 2004 and that is unusual at that distance. She has to be in the wane soon but she probably still has a couple of years at the top. In the last 2 Olympics and 3 world champs TBO has 2 golds and a silver and SRR has 2 golds and a bronze so they have dominated the big meets between them.

You would think that being in Moscow one of the Russian women has to be a potential gold medalist but there will also be the defending champ in Montsho, a more relaxed SRR with no demons and a focused TBO in what could be her last season.
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby mump boy » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:06 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:
What is Big O's 200 PR? Assuming she has yet to break 22.80, getting even closer to 49.00 (or at least the U.K. NR) could be a much bigger burden for her with regard to the second-half of her race.


It's 22.85

She's ran 60m and 200m at uk trials this weekend in 7.58 (pb 7.39) and 23.58 which is faster than she's run outdoors since 2009 when she ran then quite frequently early season
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby peach77 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:41 am

Gabriella wrote:I always preferred TBOs approach in 2008 when she ran 100s and 200s and came into Beijing as a bit of an enigma. Firstly it means she's focused and practiced on speed and secondly it leaves the other women guessing. When she competes on the circuit she shows her hand and the other women know they can beat her. But when she doesn't run 400s they will be wondering about her.


But it doesn't really make any difference what the women think or know...because when it comes to the Championships, she is always entirely ready. She was an enigma back in 08, sure, but as we all seem to bang on about every time a Championships rolls around, it is only a complete fool who writes off The Big O at a Games- and I really don't think many of the women will ever do that again, no matter what happens on the circuit...
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby ATK » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:17 am

peach77 wrote:But it doesn't really make any difference what the women think or know...because when it comes to the Championships, she is always entirely ready. She was an enigma back in 08, sure, but as we all seem to bang on about every time a Championships rolls around, it is only a complete fool who writes off The Big O at a Games- and I really don't think many of the women will ever do that again, no matter what happens on the circuit...

I think the idea that she is always a Championship performer is a little over hyped. Yes she usually runs her best at championships, but she hasn't always performed well.

2007, 2008, and 2012 were her great years
2004, 2005, 2009, and 2011 were not...
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby mump boy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:25 am

ATK wrote:
peach77 wrote:But it doesn't really make any difference what the women think or know...because when it comes to the Championships, she is always entirely ready. She was an enigma back in 08, sure, but as we all seem to bang on about every time a Championships rolls around, it is only a complete fool who writes off The Big O at a Games- and I really don't think many of the women will ever do that again, no matter what happens on the circuit...

I think the idea that she is always a Championship performer is a little over hyped. Yes she usually runs her best at championships, but she hasn't always performed well.

2007, 2008, and 2012 were her great years
2004, 2005, 2009, and 2011 were not...


She has run a pb or SB at every championships she has ever run at apart from 11 when she was DQ'd

In 04, at 20, she ran 50.50 at the OG, in 05 her main aim was the Euro under 23, she came 2nd by .01 to Olga Zaytzeva in a SB, In 06 she won the CWG in a PB of 50.28 in 09 she was injured but ran 50.22 for 5th.

You don't always have to wins a medal to perform well !!
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby ATK » Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:25 am

mump boy wrote:
ATK wrote:I think the idea that she is always a Championship performer is a little over hyped. Yes she usually runs her best at championships, but she hasn't always performed well.

2007, 2008, and 2012 were her great years
2004, 2005, 2009, and 2011 were not...


She has run a pb or SB at every championships she has ever run at apart from 11 when she was DQ'd

In 04, at 20, she ran 50.50 at the OG, in 05 her main aim was the Euro under 23, she came 2nd by .01 to Olga Zaytzeva in a SB, In 06 she won the CWG in a PB of 50.28 in 09 she was injured but ran 50.22 for 5th.

You don't always have to wins a medal to perform well !!

CO is an Olympic and World Champion, not a small time athlete. In terms of achievements and performance at the major meets were talking SRR, Williams-Darling, Ana Guevara comparable.

I see CO is in the position of If she does well its a huge success and praise, if she does average or below, its not a surprise because her runs during the season usually never indicate anything special to come.
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby nevetsllim » Mon Feb 11, 2013 4:39 am

ATK wrote:
peach77 wrote:But it doesn't really make any difference what the women think or know...because when it comes to the Championships, she is always entirely ready. She was an enigma back in 08, sure, but as we all seem to bang on about every time a Championships rolls around, it is only a complete fool who writes off The Big O at a Games- and I really don't think many of the women will ever do that again, no matter what happens on the circuit...

I think the idea that she is always a Championship performer is a little over hyped. Yes she usually runs her best at championships, but she hasn't always performed well.

2007, 2008, and 2012 were her great years
2004, 2005, 2009, and 2011 were not...


Nine of her ten best times at 400m have all been achieved in major championships and the other one was achieved at the World Athletics Final. This is a record you cannot argue with and one very few athletes can match.

2004 was pretty much Ohuruogu's first year as a full-time athlete after focusing on netball and she dropped her PB from outside 54sec down to 50.50 in the Olympics (and 50.98 just before the Games). Ohuruogu's focus in 2005 was the European Under-23 Champs and she set her season's best in the final before anchoring Britain to a medal in the 4x400m final at the World Champs. She was injured in 2009 but still lowered her season's best from 51.14 down to 50.35 in the SF and 50.21 in the final which surpassed most people's expectation.

2011 wasn't her best year but that's, what, one year in the past 8-9y where she hasn't performed.
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby peach77 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:18 am

I never understand why people discount TBO. She's the consummate championships performer, she's NEVER underperformed at a major games (bar the DQ) and you can bet your bottom dollar that the 400m girls all recognise the threat she poses when she lines up healthy...
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby John G » Mon Feb 11, 2013 5:40 am

I always thought that CO's success was based primarily on two things:
1) She peaks to perfection (never leaves her best racing on the circuit);
2) She paces her race to perfection with relatively even-paced running.

Sounds like she may be messing with perfection. That said, she needs to somehow find fresh motivation, so good luck to her. I always felt that she had got closer to her her absolute potential than any other British athlete and I can't see her ever breaking 49.5. In terms of pure ability I don't think she's even the best British 400 runner of her generation - Nicola Sanders should have gone quicker in 2007.

To pull her new race strategy off presumably she will need to get a lot quicker over 200. In the past, she may have gone through 200 half a second or more behind SRR but in doing so she was probably as close to her 200 pb as SRR was. Can she get quicker however without messing with her training and losing some of her strength?

Can anyone think of 400 flat runner who has successfully changed tactics relatively late in their career?
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby peach77 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 7:23 am

I think it's a brave move but, to be honest, she's achieved everything she wants to apart from the super fast times- so why not shake it up a bit and see what happens? It may not work but she's got a couple of seasons to try it out before she needs to think about having a crack at Rio. I'm really excited by the approach, though- she seems a different athlete this past year in terms of her effort and dedication. I wonder how much of that had to do with the injuries and realising just what it all meant to her...
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 8:00 am

Race this season, go for times in 2014.
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby mump boy » Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:19 am

John G wrote:I always thought that CO's success was based primarily on two things:
1) She peaks to perfection (never leaves her best racing on the circuit);
2) She paces her race to perfection with relatively even-paced running.

Sounds like she may be messing with perfection. That said, she needs to somehow find fresh motivation, so good luck to her. I always felt that she had got closer to her her absolute potential than any other British athlete and I can't see her ever breaking 49.5. In terms of pure ability I don't think she's even the best British 400 runner of her generation - Nicola Sanders should have gone quicker in 2007.

To pull her new race strategy off presumably she will need to get a lot quicker over 200. In the past, she may have gone through 200 half a second or more behind SRR but in doing so she was probably as close to her 200 pb as SRR was. Can she get quicker however without messing with her training and losing some of her strength?

Can anyone think of 400 flat runner who has successfully changed tactics relatively late in their career?


I agree with all of this but i think TBO's lack of commitment to the first half of the race is most egregious i can remember at this level. It has worked on the right occasion but only by tiny amounts. She won in 07 by 0.04 in 08 by 0.07 in London she won silver by 0.02

I don't want her going out crazy but i do think a better distribute of pace can get rewards, there is certainly nothing wrong with trying, especially on the circuit
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby Gabriella » Tue Feb 12, 2013 6:35 am

I'm not so sure she needs to change tactics and go our harder from the gun, rather she just needs to start her kick earlier. She looks to make her move at around the 230-250m point. If she just started to kick that bit earlier and that little bit harder then that in itself would make a difference; indeed she would have won gold in London (ok, shoulda woulda coulda)

I felt she was lucky in 2007 that Williams didn't dip at the line; she could so easily have been the silver and not gold medalist. 2008 was better judged and 2012 wasn't quite right. To me, the 'simple' answer is to kick that little bit earlier.

She is a fairly even paced runner, that is how she runs, so to make her go harder from the gun I just dont see as benefiting her as she simply isn't fast enough. Also, she got out faster in at least one race last season (can't remember which but it was televised in the UK) and she still didnt win.

Until she gets her 200m PB down by at least another 3/10ths then she will remain in the same ilk as Guevara and Miles-Clark - even paced runners that give the impression of a strong finish when the others are faltering.

So, I would like her to work more over 100/200 this seaosn and start her kick at 200m and no later. Simples :D
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby mump boy » Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:21 am

Gabriella wrote:I'm not so sure she needs to change tactics and go our harder from the gun, rather she just needs to start her kick earlier. She looks to make her move at around the 230-250m point. If she just started to kick that bit earlier and that little bit harder then that in itself would make a difference; indeed she would have won gold in London (ok, shoulda woulda coulda)

I felt she was lucky in 2007 that Williams didn't dip at the line; she could so easily have been the silver and not gold medalist. 2008 was better judged and 2012 wasn't quite right. To me, the 'simple' answer is to kick that little bit earlier.

She is a fairly even paced runner, that is how she runs, so to make her go harder from the gun I just dont see as benefiting her as she simply isn't fast enough. Also, she got out faster in at least one race last season (can't remember which but it was televised in the UK) and she still didnt win.

Until she gets her 200m PB down by at least another 3/10ths then she will remain in the same ilk as Guevara and Miles-Clark - even paced runners that give the impression of a strong finish when the others are faltering.

So, I would like her to work more over 100/200 this seaosn and start her kick at 200m and no later. Simples :D


This all makes sense but while Sanya, Jeremy, Michael etc have made a career of getting up to optimum speed asap and then relax she seems to relax for the first 200m and only then wake up. I know nothing about running 400m but it doesn't seem a very sensible plan.
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Re: TBO is Gonna Get You

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Feb 12, 2013 2:55 pm

Gabriella wrote:I'm not so sure she needs to change tactics and go our harder from the gun, rather she just needs to start her kick earlier. She looks to make her move at around the 230-250m point. If she just started to kick that bit earlier and that little bit harder then that in itself would make a difference; indeed she would have won gold in London (ok, shoulda woulda coulda)

I felt she was lucky in 2007 that Williams didn't dip at the line; she could so easily have been the silver and not gold medalist. 2008 was better judged and 2012 wasn't quite right. To me, the 'simple' answer is to kick that little bit earlier.


Williams was 3rd mate after Nicola Sanders as well. That would be some dip to stretch out in front of both 2nd and 3rd.

One thing I'm always amused by TBO is how she literally always runs exactly 400m. She always stops with the very step she takes that takes her over the finish. No mroe and no less. I can't recall a serious dip either from her.


She is a fairly even paced runner, that is how she runs, so to make her go harder from the gun I just dont see as benefiting her as she simply isn't fast enough. Also, she got out faster in at least one race last season (can't remember which but it was televised in the UK) and she still didnt win.

Until she gets her 200m PB down by at least another 3/10ths then she will remain in the same ilk as Guevara and Miles-Clark - even paced runners that give the impression of a strong finish when the others are faltering.

So, I would like her to work more over 100/200 this seaosn and start her kick at 200m and no later. Simples :D


Me too.
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