Case in point - Ami wTJ

[Marlow]

I'm perusing an article on the home-page here, and I read about a young girl named Keturah Orji who represents what I've been ranting about in the thread's subject area.

Last year as a sophomore (15/16 years old) she ran a 200 in 24.67 and a 400 in 56.71, both promising marks, but typical of a USA teen girl who is 'good'.

But . . . in her first year of jumping she went

LJ - 19' 7.5 (~6m)
TJ - 41' (~12.50)

That's her debut season with what I will call 'competent' coaching (which most of us HS coaches aspire to).

Catch #1 - she likes volleyball too
Catch #2 - she will continue to run 100s, 200s, 400s, and add in an occasional HJ.

12.50 in her first (young) year of the TJ. Is this not a girl that COULD become a viable force in the TJ? But she will (probably) be lost in the shuffle somewhere along the line. If she received the encouragement, support and patience she needs, could not she have a decent chance to become a 14m (46'), if not 15m (49') jumper? That would put her at the top of the Ami ranks and the latter number would make her truly world-class.

Just sayin' . . . sigh . . .

[Deerfoot]

While I have almost no knowledge of the American High School athletics scene, could part of the problem be that the triple jump is not considered a 'cool' event?

[Marlow]

While I have almost no knowledge of the American High School athletics scene, could part of the problem be that the triple jump is not considered a 'cool' event?

I had never heard that (at the HS level). The 100 and mile are where all the non-talented kids go, so there goes their coolness.

[lonewolf]

The problem with the TJ in Oklahoma HS is that is so seldom contested it has no chance to be cool or uncool. No one is good at it. The rare competitions are more like experimental training and a pain to conduct. . the TJers are the LJers and also running the sprints, hurdles and sprint relays.
The TJ is more widely contested in Texas HS and a few genuine TJers show up at the Texas
Relays every year..dunno how you change the mindset.

[Blues]

I'm perusing an article on the home-page here, and I read about a young girl named Keturah Orji who represents what I've been ranting about in the thread's subject area.

Last year as a sophomore (15/16 years old) she ran a 200 in 24.67 and a 400 in 56.71, both promising marks, but typical of a USA teen girl who is 'good'.

But . . . in her first year of jumping she went

LJ - 19' 7.5 (~6m)
TJ - 41' (~12.50)

That's her debut season with what I will call 'competent' coaching (which most of us HS coaches aspire to).

Catch #1 - she likes volleyball too
Catch #2 - she will continue to run 100s, 200s, 400s, and add in an occasional HJ.



Just sayin' . . . sigh . . .

Catch #3 - she also has the option to represent Nigeria rather than the USA if the opportunity arises for her to compete internationally. (There's nothing that suggests she'd do that, but she has the choice.)

[Marlow]

I'm perusing an article on the home-page here, and I read about a young girl named Keturah Orji who represents what I've been ranting about in the thread's subject area.
Last year as a sophomore (15/16 years old) she ran a 200 in 24.67 and a 400 in 56.71, both promising marks, but typical of a USA teen girl who is 'good'.
But . . . in her first year of jumping she went
LJ - 19' 7.5 (~6m)
TJ - 41' (~12.50)
That's her debut season with what I will call 'competent' coaching (which most of us HS coaches aspire to).
Catch #1 - she likes volleyball too
Catch #2 - she will continue to run 100s, 200s, 400s, and add in an occasional HJ.
Just sayin' . . . sigh . . .

Catch #3 - she also has the option to represent Nigeria rather than the USA if the opportunity arises for her to compete internationally. (There's nothing that suggests she'd do that, but she has the choice.)

Well, then I guess the good news is that we (USA) are so abysmally bad in this event, that she won't get scared off by the competition for a WC/OG berth when the time comes . . . sigh.

[unclezadok]

I'm perusing an article on the home-page here, and I read about a young girl named Keturah Orji who represents what I've been ranting about in the thread's subject area.

Last year as a sophomore (15/16 years old) she ran a 200 in 24.67 and a 400 in 56.71, both promising marks, but typical of a USA teen girl who is 'good'.

But . . . in her first year of jumping she went

LJ - 19' 7.5 (~6m)
TJ - 41' (~12.50)

That's her debut season with what I will call 'competent' coaching (which most of us HS coaches aspire to).

Catch #1 - she likes volleyball too
Catch #2 - she will continue to run 100s, 200s, 400s, and add in an occasional HJ.



Just sayin' . . . sigh . . .

Catch #3 - she also has the option to represent Nigeria rather than the USA if the opportunity arises for her to compete internationally. (There's nothing that suggests she'd do that, but she has the choice.)

She'd probably have a better chance of making the US team than the Nigerian team.

[El Toro]

Look on the bright side, Marlow, at least she is not white, otherwise she would be automatically moved up to middle distance.

[Marlow]

Speaking of 'case in point'!

As Keturah Orji, the junior from Mount Olive, N.J., sped down the runway for her fifth triple jump of the day, what was in question was not if she'd repeat at the New Balance Nationals champion in Greensboro, N.C.
The question was simply, "How far can she go?"
Well, that jump — which measured a wind-legal 13.34 meters (43-9 1/4) — left more questions than answers. It was, after all, the sixth-longest effort in high school history, but it didn't have the look of a perfect effort.
She didn't even hit the takeoff board and her final phase — the jump — nearly had a 'run-through' look. Her entry into the sand was without extension as she landed standing upright and simply walked away.
How many inches were left at both the start and finish of the effort? That is rather scary to think about given that her mark would have scored at the NCAA Championships last weekend. And, yes, she is just a junior.

[batonless relay]

The problem with wTJ in America is coaching. And, one of the biggest problems is the type of "coach" waiting for the athletic Messiah - the type of athlete that could do "anything" nearly "NATURALLY". There are TONS of athletes WAITING to find a coach! The type of coach who isn't ONLY looking for an athlete of "West African descent" or who can run 11.50 in the 100m. They're looking for someone who actually KNOWS what he/she is doing and can take their untrained, untapped potential and mold it into something special; something the 99% just can't do.

There really is no "case in point" to this thread. How can US wTJ coaching, especially on the high school level, be called "competent"? We certainly wouldn't call it "expert", "great" or even "good" but even "competent" seems like a promotion. Why? Because "athletes" can jump 43/44' without "coaching". If you get even luckier one of those athletes MAY even get near 14m with wind, and that's the reason why only one of the top 10 high schoolers ever jumped beyond 14m at a later date. There are more surfaced tracks in the USA than in all the other countries on the earth combined; The USA has about 10,000 high school track programs; has 500,000 girls "participating" each year and has another 500+ "coaches" on the NCAA DI, DII, DIII JUCO and NAIA level and yet only ONE US Junior has ever jumped over 14m (14.01) and a girl jumps 44 feet and her coaching is described as "competent"?

Almost 6 months before her 17th birthday, Spaniard Ana Peleteiro jumped 14.17m, yet the best American junior ever is "only" 14.01 - and the American high school record is 13.74 - and those Juniors had up to 3 years more than Ana to do it? Ana was 16! She had a coach. A real coach that wasn't waiting for someone faster or stronger but who could teach her how to jump farther with discipline and knowledge. An 18 y/o Estonian jumped 14.43. She had a coach! In almost all of the wTJ junior athletes who are better than their American counterparts, those non-Americans trained with their coaches for a shorter period than the US-"trained" girls. So, let's get this straight: the American coaches are as good or better with MORE time and more access to athletes but lag the all-time charts because they're good?

[gktrack]

... saw some young promise also in HS mTJ yesterday at New Balance Nationals...
How 'bout this series from Jeremiah Green from Tampa FL, HS #1:
F / 52-2 / F / 51-9.75 / 52-1.75 / 52-1.25, all legal, and most into a negative wind...

In case you were wondering, yes, he has speed... he's run a 10.64 100m

[Spickard]

Marlow is correct. Geubelle ran 11.81 in high school, but she ran it BECAUSE of her very competent jump coaching, not in spite of it. She was a 12.4 kid prior, which, in Washington State might seem fast. But the right call was made and she triple jumped. She's not even a B standard kid yet, but you'd be hard pressed to find 10 like her who were guided to jump. Unfortunately, you could find 20 like her that played basketball, another 20 who played volleyball, and another 20 who played soccer....and I'm not talking about kids who "made it" in these sports. I'm talking about kids who became journeymen level performers in NCAA (with all apologies to Nick Symmonds. )

The bottom line is that American coaching lacks in two places: having the vision to put speed on the runway and then developing an acceptable technical model.

[Marlow]

There really is no "case in point" to this thread. How can US wTJ coaching, especially on the high school level, be called "competent"? We certainly wouldn't call it "expert", "great" or even "good" but even "competent" seems like a promotion.

Talk about over-generalizations. There are plenty of excellent HS TJ coaches, just as there are college ones. Unfortunately the problem is the likelihood of a great talent having a great coach is very small. Great TJ talent manifests itself in other events, so coaches 'let' then do many and they never settle in to be the next great TJer. I and another coach in this city take 13.5 g100m sprinters (often the best we have) and make them 35-37' TJers. No hubris, but give me an 11.7 sprinter (with some modicum of verts), let me train her in just the LJ/TJ (no sprints, no relays) and I'll give someone who can compete with the best. And I'm just a "good" coach, not a great one. When I go to USATF coaching courses, I meet men and women who could make world-class TJers, but they never have the crème de la crème to work with. Euro coaches can focus on one girl, one event, and that's where they make their champions.

[mal]

Marlow, there is so much available physical ability in the US, that criticism of coaching is warranted.

I find that a really good coach lifts all talent levels in their group. I wouldn't describe that as over achieving on the part of the 'lesser' talent.

Much high school coaching in this country is about the stipend and available time.

[batonless relay]

There are plenty of excellent HS TJ coaches, just as there are college ones. Unfortunately the problem is the likelihood of a great talent having a great coach is very small. Great TJ talent manifests itself in other events, so coaches 'let' then do many and they never settle in to be the next great TJer.

First, let's keep the conversation on WOMEN'S/GIRLS TRIPLE JUMP. Second, what do you define as "excellent"? Clearly your standard is lower than mine, but let's at least define what your standard is? Third, imo, that's nonsense that the US has "excellent" TJ coaches. 14.20 is the B-standard and the US doesn't have a single American who has the B, but your saying there are "excellent" coaches? In 20 years, not a single "excellent coach" has seen a TJ talent? That's impossible. If anything there waiting for someone to jump 15m so they can attach their name to them.

I and another coach in this city take 13.5 g100m sprinters (often the best we have) and make them 35-37' TJers. No hubris, but give me an 11.7 sprinter (with some modicum of verts), let me train her in just the LJ/TJ (no sprints, no relays) and I'll give someone who can compete with the best. And I'm just a "good" coach, not a great one.

No disrespect, Marlow, but that's horseshit! You can't do it, and neither can many (all?) of those "excellent" coaches that you claim can do it. If you're learning from the same books/methodology that they are and they're better than you...what makes you think you can? you don't need 11.7 speed to be a great triple jumper. It's certainly helpful, but not necessary.

When I go to USATF coaching courses, I meet men and women who could make world-class TJers, but they never have the crème de la crème to work with. Euro coaches can focus on one girl, one event, and that's where they make their champions.

They may know the "science" but they don't know how to TEACH IT - and that's the only thing that matters. They say they never have the "crème de la crème" but I would argue that it's the ATHLETES who never get the "crème de la crème" to work with.

It's more BS about Euro coaches only having athletes in one event...blah, blah, blah. There are college women who came in doing only one event and left doing only one event and they NEVER improved DESPITE their coaches claiming to be TJ coaches. That's a fact.

Excellent coaches "find" exceptional talent and usually it's been discarded/ignored by other "coaches".

[Marlow]

When I go to USATF coaching courses, I meet men and women who could make world-class TJers, but they never have the crème de la crème to work with. Euro coaches can focus on one girl, one event, and that's where they make their champions.

They may know the "science" but they don't know how to TEACH IT

??!!
You dismiss them without knowing a single thing about them - even who they are . . .
That explains a lot about your debate strategies.

[batonless relay]

When I go to USATF coaching courses, I meet men and women who could make world-class TJers, but they never have the crème de la crème to work with. Euro coaches can focus on one girl, one event, and that's where they make their champions.

They may know the "science" but they don't know how to TEACH IT

??!!
You dismiss them without knowing a single thing about them - even who they are . . .
That explains a lot about your debate strategies.

You apparently know everything about these coaches and with all the athletes available in the US, these "experts in their field" couldn't find more than a handful to qualify on the B-standard - forget about the A of 14.40? And, it never occurred to you to ask, how do you know they're good? Or was it a Quid Pro Quo thing where if they said you were good, then you would say they were good? If that's the case then I guess it's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma where you can all say you're experts as long as the others don't confess.

As for my debate strategies? It's your strategy that is unfortunately on display: when cornered for making an erroneous claim/charge, change the subject or attack something/someone else. It's instructive that you don't mention where the 13.5ers were before you masterfully took over and helping them to settle at ... 35/36'. I submit that better coaching would have moved their PB's farther, faster - and with more consistency.

Amber Jackson of Gateway HS in Florida is a senior who has PBs in the 400m and 800m of 75.78 and 2:42.37, respectively. She's jumped 38'4.5" Needless to say she's probably no better than 13.5...by comparison...she found a coach? http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/A ... ID=2026687

Ashley Giacomucci. Probably no better than 13.5...by comparison found a coach? http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/A ... ID=2263008

Deja Hillman. PB 13.81...by comparison found a coach? http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/A ... ID=3041161

I asked you serious questions and you didn't answer one. Would answering havebetrayed your confidence to the "club of experts"?

Of the 95 women on TFFRS, and these are the best of college - mind you, only 18 were able to better 13m. 18!! Take out wind-aided marks and you have maybe a dozen. Take out the foreigners and you have about 10. 10 athletes who can break 13m, most of those just barely out of tens of thousands, but we should be extolling the expertise of coaches you meet at conferences? Did it ever occur to you that it was a certification mill? Now, I see why you want to restrict foreigners from competing in the NCAA. Not because they take scholarships from Americans but because they expose the "talents" of coaches who might do their athletes a favor by selling insurance or starring in infomercials.

[Marlow]

Amber Jackson of Gateway HS in Florida is a senior who has PBs in the 400m and 800m of 75.78 and 2:42.37, respectively. She's jumped 38'4.5" Needless to say she's probably no better than 13.5...by comparison...she found a coach? http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/A ... ID=2026687

Ashley Giacomucci. Probably no better than 13.5...by comparison found a coach? http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/A ... ID=2263008

Wow - you know nothing abut these girls and I've seen both jump. I know exactly why they jump far. You literally don't have a clue.

And know that we've had our little tete-a-tete, I'm out before you get banned again.

[batonless relay]

Amber Jackson of Gateway HS in Florida is a senior who has PBs in the 400m and 800m of 75.78 and 2:42.37, respectively. She's jumped 38'4.5" Needless to say she's probably no better than 13.5...by comparison...she found a coach? http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/A ... ID=2026687

Ashley Giacomucci. Probably no better than 13.5...by comparison found a coach? http://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/A ... ID=2263008

Wow - you know nothing abut these girls and I've seen both jump. I know exactly why they jump far. You literally don't have a clue.

And know that we've had our little tete-a-tete, I'm out before you get banned again.

WE (you and I) have had nothing; whatever you're having please don't share. This also has nothing to do with any banning, if you want to be "out" then you don't have to respond but it's like you're looking for a fight. FYI, when you do that [thing you do] gh is less likely to accede to your wishes. That being said, I'm pretty confident that you don't know why they jump "far" (actually farther than 35/36 w/13.5+ speed). And, getting back to the "case in point"...who knows, with non-American coaching they might be able to learn how to triple jump even farther, but at least they're jumping 38+ feet.

[uakari]

Look on the bright side, Marlow, at least she is not white, otherwise she would be automatically moved up to middle distance.

whoooaaaa. easy on the generalizations there. it wasn't too long ago that a white female TJ represented the US (not to mention LJ, 100H and 400H).

[dtrainer]

I believe that the problem with US women's triple jump lies not with the lack of coaching but indeed with the lack of available talent and the redirecting of capable athletes towards other events. Most world class athletes have the potential to be world class in other events. Christian Taylor ran 45sec lead off legs for Florida, Svante Stringfellow splitting 45's for ole miss back in the day. Imagine what if Jackie Joiner Kersee focused on tj. I can imagine Dee Dee Trotter being the prototypical triple jumper. All you have to do is view the athleticism of the females playing basketball. Simply put our most capable athletes are redirected towards other events and sports. Im not knocking our current crop of jumpers but i will bet that most were put in the triple jump because of their limited ability to succeed at the highest levels in other events. What we as coaches(including myself) is not taking the most talented athletes and seeing them as potential triple jumpers first. We(US) have some very capable triple jump coaches.

[MDelano]

The men are doing fine in the TJ, so how can one blame the coaches?

[Powell]

The men are doing fine in the TJ, so how can one blame the coaches?

Are they? Yes, the US has currently got 2 men at the very top in global terms, but apart from that, not a whole lot. On the 2012 world list, there were just 4 Americans in the top 50, compared to 7 Cubans. The men are doing a lot better than the women, but not all that great, TBH.

[batonless relay]

If your only tool is a hammer everything looks like a nail.

Coaches, even the very good ones (especially the very good ones?), tend to pound round pegs into square holes. Whatever that coaches respective specialty might be, s/he's going to mold athletes to fit it (I read a gh quote where Lydiard said he could have Henry Carr running 1:40 within 3 years. Not under 10, not under 20...under 1:40). I know of a coach who walked across campus, asked a regular college student to walk-on after watching her running around campus, and turned that athlete into an NCAA Champion - in that coaches specialty. Rick Suhr, never having PV'd decides that he's going to become one of the best PV coaches in the US and then goes and finds a basketball player to become the American record holder in wPV. Peter Coe, to my knowledge had never coached, turned his son into one of the best middle distance runners ever. Maybe if Ashton Eaton grew up in Texas we'd be talking about his chances in the 100m this weekend. The fact that the US has produced so few wTJ of world standard (only 2 American women in the history of the US could have made the Moscow A of 14.40) -practically none- to me suggests that no coach has been focussed on it, which means no coach has the proficiency - because when coaches are single-minded about an event they make it happen. Yes, it's easy to say the athletes choose, but that's not the case. I'm pretty confident that some of those Cuban TJers could do other events, but again, Coaches pound round pegs into square holes. The idea that not a single "capable/good/excellent" American coach has had the opportunity to work with a possible wTJ world beater is impossible. Too many athletes. Too many facilities. A "coach" would have found a few.