1500/Mile records for Cain [split]


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Re: Mary Cain 9:02.10 3k (Oversized track) [overall HSR]

Postby Jon » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:14 pm

guru wrote:4:16.11 @ 1500m, HSR, AJR
It would have been interesting to see what Darlene Beckford's 1500m split was en route to her 4:32.30 mile.

Also, I don't believe it's been mentioned anywhere else yet (despite all the talk about her performance on various sites), but Cain's mile time is a world youth indoor best - although obviously the top youth Chinese/Ethiopian/Kenyan middle-distance runners have never had a chance to run an indoor mile.

Trying to find out where her 4:16.11 ranks among youths indoors all-time...
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Jon » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:15 pm

tandfman wrote:USATF ratifies as youth records only peformances made in USATF Youth Athletics or Junior Olympic competition. A mark like Cain's, even though it was set while running for a USATF team, is not eligible to be a USATF Youth record. It's similar to the official National Federation High School records, which can be set only in certain high school competion.
Is USATF's definition of 'youth' the same as the IAAF's (i.e. under-18)? I guess it's fair to say that although her 4:11 might not be a "ratified USATF youth record", it is still an American youth record.
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Re: Mary Cain 9:02.10 3k (Oversized track) [overall HSR]

Postby unclezadok » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:29 pm

Jon wrote:
guru wrote:4:16.11 @ 1500m, HSR, AJR
It would have been interesting to see what Darlene Beckford's 1500m split was en route to her 4:32.30 mile.

Also, I don't believe it's been mentioned anywhere else yet (despite all the talk about her performance on various sites), but Cain's mile time is a world youth indoor best - although obviously the top youth Chinese/Ethiopian/Kenyan middle-distance runners have never had a chance to run an indoor mile.

Trying to find out where her 4:16.11 ranks among youths indoors all-time...


Surely they must have had a chance to run an indoor mile before age 25. Oops, sorry, strike that.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:42 pm

In all of this excitement it should be noted that Debbie Heald ran on a 11 lap track back in 1972. And also won her race.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Fortius19 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:54 pm

Conor Dary wrote:In all of this excitement it should be noted that Debbie Heald ran on a 11 lap track back in 1972. And also won her race.


Interesting point.

Is there any fairly-well accepted conversion from 11 laps to the mile tracks to 8 laps to the mile tracks for a mile race?

Did the NCAA look into that one? :wink:

Any educated guesses?
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:09 pm

Conor Dary wrote:In all of this excitement it should be noted that Debbie Heald ran on a 11 lap track back in 1972. And also won her race.


With competition that included the recently minted WR holder in the 1500i, I think.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby guru » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:27 pm

Conor Dary wrote:In all of this excitement it should be noted that Debbie Heald ran on a 11 lap track back in 1972. And also won her race.



Lap short? :P
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:39 pm

Conor Dary wrote:In all of this excitement it should be noted that Debbie Heald ran on a 11 lap track back in 1972. And also won her race.


In a much larger setting.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 7:43 pm

az2004 wrote:i think 8:55 is rrealistic next week for 3k


Yeah....I tend to agree with this moreso than an 8:45. There are much faster US women over the mile/1500m who have only barely gotten to the 8:45 mark.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby aaronk » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:36 pm

Dutra5 wrote:
az2004 wrote:i think 8:55 is rrealistic next week for 3k


Yeah....I tend to agree with this moreso than an 8:45. There are much faster US women over the mile/1500m who have only barely gotten to the 8:45 mark.


There's a few reasons why I've made such a bold prediction for Mary.

1. Salazar has said she's ready to run 4:25 at Millrose. That's approx. 4:08 for 1500, 3 secs faster than her PR.
2. At even "just" 4:08 PR ability, if Cain slowed down 15 secs per 1500, she'd get an 8:46!! (And a sub-9:20 two mile!!!)
3. The fact that so few Americans have run 8:45 (indoors....or even outdoors) has really nothing to do with Cain being able to do so. SHE isn't to blame for the lack of depth in female USA distance running!! (Though that's improving!!) Did you notice that there was NO ranking of 3K runners in the Annual issue of T&FN?? Not enough 3K races?? The 3K seems to be mainly an indoor event. Rarely run outdoors anymore!!
4. Who's to say that this current crop of young female runners aren't the makings of a Renaissance in USA female distance running?? Besides Cain, we have (potentially) Sarah Baxter, Brianna Nerud, Cayla Hatton, Ajee Wilson, the Meier girls, Wesley Frazier, Amy Eloise-Neale, Erin Finn, Katie Knight, and so many others, including the still-young Jordan Hasay!!
5. Finally, Cain WANTS to run fast.....every time!! She's not intimidated by pro runners!! She has Salazar as her coach! And she's a RARE talent!! Let's not underestimate her!!
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Brian » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:26 am

One thing I believe we should all do for Mary Cain is to get into the habit (as some here already have, which gave me the idea) of referring to her mostly by her last name rather than her first, just as we would for an adult female.

A small thing, but one that helps maintain basic respect rather than turning her into a/our "little darling."

The mainstream media will do that enough.
.
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Re: Mary Cain 9:02.10 3k (Oversized track) [overall HSR]

Postby Jon » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:10 am

Jon wrote:Also, I don't believe it's been mentioned anywhere else yet (despite all the talk about her performance on various sites), but Cain's mile time is a world youth indoor best.
I've also just realised that her 9:02.10 is also a world youth indoor best. (Granted, it was run on an oversized track, but "world youth indoor bests" aren't recognised records anyway, so that doesn't really matter).
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby az2004 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:50 am

arronk mnetioned some of the hot young kids

isn't ajee taking a run at the decker 800 mark this weekend

for me base speed is the key, wilson and cain have it

i think nehrud is in the equation too

i think having that african change of gear at the end of the race is needed

i'm talking about winning, not running for 3rd

but i do FULLY agree usa has more topend talents

i think the longer baxter goes, the better she can be say the marathon, i think one day she is very good there

as to cain i think running for 8:55 is safer, 8:45 risks blowing up

run neg split miles and surprise yourself, she does have a tendancy to finish well, have never seen her not finish well..

as to 4:25 mile, that's the cap of the indoor season, when putting everything together should happen

the boston 2 mile is strength work for the millrose mile and if she runs 9:50 in boston, ok
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:02 am

All these Eldrickian extrapolations of what she's going to run next make me sad. If it turns out she is human and doesn't meet our expectations, where does that leave her?

I watched the Rupp 3:50 mile video and was also very sad that the announcer's call focused first and foremost on his FAILURE to break the record . . . :(

As for Mary' Cain's name, PC concerns are just that. She's a 16-year-old girl, and all the ones I know (I am inundated by them on a daily basis) would much prefer to go by just their first name rather than just their last or even Ms. Lastname. Just a thought.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby az2004 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:33 am

from hearing her interviews mary cain seems like whatever happens happens, it's not like a big name talent at the 2000 olympics where the pressure ws so intense she couldn't deal with it

if mary cain runs a 10:05 in bostom it'll be a whatever moment for her, a learning expereince

mary cain isn't taking this as serious as some, just enjoying it

enjoying being in the same race as t dibaba and enjoying what she can do
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:40 am

az2004 wrote:from hearing her interviews mary cain seems like whatever happens happens
if mary cain runs a 10:05 in bostom it'll be a whatever moment for her, a learning expereince
mary cain isn't taking this as serious as some, just enjoying it
enjoying being in the same race as t dibaba and enjoying what she can do

Would that it were so, but I very much doubt it. You don't get this kind of intense nat'l scrutiny at age 16 and just slough it off. There is immense pressure on her, both from herself and the running media. MOST young female (and male for that matter) running phenoms flame out, mostly from the pressure of having to perpetually top their own accomplishments. The stopwatch is a cruel taskmaster and never lies.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby tandfman » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:24 am

Brian wrote:One thing I believe we should all do for Mary Cain is to get into the habit (as some here already have, which gave me the idea) of referring to her mostly by her last name rather than her first, just as we would for an adult female.

Or for a high school kid who happened to be male. Does anyone refer to Cheserek as just Edward? Not that I've seen.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby guru » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:41 am

Re first names...

I think in just about every media circle, sports or otherwise, if you're under 18 you're called by your first name, which I'm fine with(but dont get me started on the NYRR printing WOMEN'S first names on bibs). What does drive me nuts is high school athletic directors who refer to their school's teams as "men" and "women". They're not - they're kids.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby aaronk » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:52 am

Marlow wrote:
az2004 wrote:from hearing her interviews mary cain seems like whatever happens happens
if mary cain runs a 10:05 in bostom it'll be a whatever moment for her, a learning expereince
mary cain isn't taking this as serious as some, just enjoying it
enjoying being in the same race as t dibaba and enjoying what she can do

Would that it were so, but I very much doubt it. You don't get this kind of intense nat'l scrutiny at age 16 and just slough it off. There is immense pressure on her, both from herself and the running media. MOST young female (and male for that matter) running phenoms flame out, mostly from the pressure of having to perpetually top their own accomplishments. The stopwatch is a cruel taskmaster and never lies.


I've read all the comments posted since I gave my 5-point analysis of Cain (sic!!), and it's difficult to make sense of them all!!
So I chose the above as my step-off point.

Pressure??
Have any of you watched Cain's (again, sic!!! Our LAST NAME Gal!!) various interview videos??
I have.....probably ALL of them.....from her CC races, track races out and indoors, from the past couple of years.
Conclusion?
Mary Cain (!!) is a NORMAL teenager!
Listen to her talk!
FAST speaking, lots of "like"s and "you know"'s in almost every sentence!!
And not even ONE moment of fear, intimidation, paranoia, or lack of confidence about who she is, what she's done, and what's expected of her!!
As I said earlier, in a post-race interview, speaking of racing against the GREAT Tirunish Dibaba, she says something like "It'd be great to be within a 100 meters of her when she finishes, and me applauding her!!".
Tell me, does that sound like someone feeling the pressure of going up against the woman who almost everyone considers the WORLD'S best female distance runner??
No, I think Cain is just a VERY happy, VERY well balanced (4.0 student too!!), VERY charming and well-spoken (despite the teenage "vocabulary"!!), and just your NORMAL 16 year old KID!!!

Who happens to be the greatest American talent to come upon us in DECADES!!!
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby az2004 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:12 am

i tend to agree, mary cain is not subject to pressure

presuure is not being able to perform to self imposed expectation

acing your sat and running 4:32 doesn't speak og succumbing to it

i say enjoy the moment

daegu 1500 womens final

enjoy what happens

be in the moment

mary cain will have a time when expectation, maybe rio 2016, judge her then

but her expectation may be different than an older generation
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby 18.99s » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:08 am

guru wrote:I think in just about every media circle, sports or otherwise, if you're under 18 you're called by your first name, which I'm fine with(but dont get me started on the NYRR printing WOMEN'S first names on bibs).

Do you know if it wasn't the women's own choice to have their first names on the bibs?
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:18 am

18.99s wrote:Do you know if it wasn't the women's own choice to have their first names on the bibs?

??!!
If you are trying to market yourself, doesn't it make A LOT more sense for your bib to say, "Lolo" or "Alyson" than "Jones" or "Felix"? Murkans like their sports celebrities up close and personal . . . A-Rod, Peyton and Eli, Lance, etc..
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby guru » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:10 pm

18.99s wrote:
guru wrote:I think in just about every media circle, sports or otherwise, if you're under 18 you're called by your first name, which I'm fine with(but dont get me started on the NYRR printing WOMEN'S first names on bibs).

Do you know if it wasn't the women's own choice to have their first names on the bibs?



When this was first discussed here, David Monti stated it was indeed a NYRR decision.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby dj » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:20 pm

Fortius19 wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:In all of this excitement it should be noted that Debbie Heald ran on a 11 lap track back in 1972. And also won her race.


Interesting point.

Is there any fairly-well accepted conversion from 11 laps to the mile tracks to 8 laps to the mile tracks for a mile race?

Did the NCAA look into that one? :wink:

Any educated guesses?



Verry rough: add 0.5 seconds per extra turn, in this case three seconds.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby huntinwr » Mon Jan 28, 2013 1:59 pm

Hope Debbie Heald isn't feeling too bad about losing her record. From what I've read it was quite important to her.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Jon » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:00 pm

aaronk wrote:Cain WANTS to run fast.....every time!!
In that case, the records (or 'bests') to look out for in Boston are...

3000m indoors
World junior - 8:33.56 (Tirunesh Dibaba)
American junior - 9:02.10 OT (Mary Cain) / 9:15.56 (Aisling Cuffe)
World youth - 9:02.10 OT (Mary Cain) / 9:02.42 (Etaferahu Tarekegne)
American youth - 9:02.10 OT (Mary Cain) / 9:35.15 (Aisling Cuffe)

2 miles indoors
World junior - 9:34.03 (Meseret Defar)
American junior - 9:55.71 (Lisa Welch-Brady)
World youth - 10:11.65 (Aisling Cuffe)
American youth - 10:11.65 (Aisling Cuffe)
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:21 pm

aaronk wrote:3. The fact that so few Americans have run 8:45 (indoors....or even outdoors) has really nothing to do with Cain being able to do so. SHE isn't to blame for the lack of depth in female USA distance running!! (Though that's improving!!) Did you notice that there was NO ranking of 3K runners in the Annual issue of T&FN?? Not enough 3K races?? The 3K seems to be mainly an indoor event. Rarely run outdoors anymore!!


There have been enough women who've run 4:32 or a reasonable facsimile who have also run 3000m to draw a conclusion that it would be an outlier if she did so.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Dutra5 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:23 pm

az2004 wrote:from hearing her interviews mary cain seems like whatever happens happens, it's not like a big name talent at the 2000 olympics where the pressure ws so intense she couldn't deal with it

if mary cain runs a 10:05 in bostom it'll be a whatever moment for her, a learning expereince

mary cain isn't taking this as serious as some, just enjoying it

enjoying being in the same race as t dibaba and enjoying what she can do


Let's hope so. At least one on the board seems to be a tad overly focused on the bottom line. :lol:
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby AS » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:33 pm

Just (again) to be a tempering voice here:

Youth outdoor 1500m all-time list has 25 girls under 4.10 for 1500m, and Cain's current PR of 4.11.01 has her at #33

http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/mi ... men/youth/

And before the "but she was only 16" song kicks in, there are 13 gals 16 or younger ahead of here, including some who are not Chinese, Ethopian or Kenyan...

I'm not suggesting she can't/hasn't improved dramatically, but let's not pretend that her early success predicts future Olympic gold, nor that her being as fast as most US college milers says much more than the US has lacked depth in this event for a long time...
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby doug5321 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:14 pm

just a sidenote in the boston indoor 2 mile cain will be racing another good young runner gotytom gebreselassie born january 1995
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby az2004 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:17 am

i see where cuffe has the usa records, she's a total strength runner can hammer at a hard pace

saw her do the 3k at penn, and get outkicked by hayley pierce, currently a frosh at georgetown

the gebreselassie presence interests me and seeing how the race progresses between the two interests me more than the dibaba presence

for me i see the cuffe marks going down

looking at cain performaces for 2013, i'd say 9:50 to 9:55 is possible

breaking 10 might be her target
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby az2004 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:10 pm

the new articleon the frontpage has an interestingset of quotes

John Henwood: “I’ve worked with Mary since October. Alberto Salazar is her coach [the former marathon champion who also coaches Mo Farah] . He sets the programme, and I supervise the track sessions and report back to Alberto, who usually calls about five minutes after each session. The first time I saw her train I said to Alberto, ‘this girl is going to make the Olympic team’ and Alberto replied, ‘doh, that is a given’.”

“Mary also the attitude of an athlete in their late 20s, rather than a 16-year-old. She doesn’t get too concerned if she does not hit the times for every session. Some athletes would get really disappointed with themselves and would not be able to accept this. Mary listens to what Alberto and I say, and she is fine with any explanations we have [for not hitting the times] because she has great confidence in herself.”

the alberto doh that's a given shows his supreme confidence
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby 18.99s » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:32 pm

Marlow wrote:If you are trying to market yourself, doesn't it make A LOT more sense for your bib to say, "Lolo" or "Alyson" than "Jones" or "Felix"? Murkans like their sports celebrities up close and personal . . . A-Rod, Peyton and Eli, Lance, etc..

Depends on the specific first or last names. When referring to them by one name, people say Quarrie and Bolt and Montsho and Rudisha, but then they'll say Merlene and Carl and Asafa and Lolo. Some names just resonate better with the public.

But for bibs, they either should give each athlete the choice, or use last names for everybody if they aren't allowed to choose.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby unclezadok » Wed Jan 30, 2013 4:05 pm

AS wrote:Just (again) to be a tempering voice here:

Youth outdoor 1500m all-time list has 25 girls under 4.10 for 1500m, and Cain's current PR of 4.11.01 has her at #33

http://www.iaaf.org/records/toplists/mi ... men/youth/

And before the "but she was only 16" song kicks in, there are 13 gals 16 or younger ahead of here, including some who are not Chinese, Ethopian or Kenyan...

I'm not suggesting she can't/hasn't improved dramatically, but let's not pretend that her early success predicts future Olympic gold, nor that her being as fast as most US college milers says much more than the US has lacked depth in this event for a long time...


OK fine, that's out of the way, can we get back to enjoying her performances now?
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:36 pm

Using first names on the bibs might make the degree of 'foreignness' less apparent in some cases. It is also an attempt to personalize the event.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby az2004 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:21 am

megastars get the first name treatment

when you see usain, we know who we are talking about

if i see tyson i know who
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby az2004 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:47 pm

should be noted boston meet will be on espn3
saturday 6-8eastern

6:04PM MBTA Women's 400m
6:12PM Boys' Junior Mile
6:22PM Women's 60m
6:32PM Men's 60m
6:35PM Women's Pole Vault
6:40PM NB Women's Mile
6:50PM Men's Mile
7:00PM Women's 60m Hurdles
7:13PM Powerade Men's 60m Hurdles
7:23PM Women's 800m
7:33PM Women's Two Mile
7:48PM NB Men's 3000m


and then on espn2 sunday from 2-4 eastern

and millrose 2/16 at 5pm on to7????
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby Fortius19 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:35 pm

dj wrote:
Fortius19 wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:In all of this excitement it should be noted that Debbie Heald ran on a 11 lap track back in 1972. And also won her race.


Interesting point.

Is there any fairly-well accepted conversion from 11 laps to the mile tracks to 8 laps to the mile tracks for a mile race?

Did the NCAA look into that one? :wink:

Any educated guesses?



Verry rough: add 0.5 seconds per extra turn, in this case three seconds.



dj, thank you very much for that. I had no idea. Puts the comparison with 4:38 in a little bit more perspective (for me at least).

If she had broken the old record by less than one second, I'd still be looking for her to lower it more befor I considered it a "better performance".
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby gh » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:31 am

Of course, not all 160y tracks were remotely the same. For those adept at handling its steep walls, I'd say that the San Diego track, for example, was 2-3 seconds faster for a mile than was the MSG installation.

Size was only part of the equation.
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Re: 1500/Mile records for Cain [split]

Postby az2004 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:50 am

solid point from gh, i just got done reading runner world article on heald

http://www.runnersworld.com/runners-sto ... ant-record

talks of her doing 10-12 miles per day
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