aaronk wrote:I've read Brian's post....and I disagree with it!! Mary herself said in an interview (in 2011 or 2012) that she wants to ALWAYS run fast.....for time.....and looks at times as more important to her than winning.
Not that she doesn't want to win too.....she does.....but she said she'd be happy with a fast time even if she finished back in the pack (paraphrased).
As for her 9:02, I think she DID see it as a fitness test. She knew the time wouldn't be accepted as an official record.
Guess what? She's entered in Boston. Is that gonna be another "fitness test"?? Or was she entered in that meet to get the OFFICIAL records at 3K and 2 miles??
As for 10 years down the road....she signed on with Salazar in 2012....so that makes 10 years 2022!! Unless things change, there won't be any big championship meets that year. No OG and no WC!!
I really doubt she's going to wait until 2022 to shatter records left and right!!! She won't be running that Boston 2 mile as a "fitness test"!!
Aaron, how old are you? I don't mean that derogatorily; age is a matter of years on this planet but also education and experience. [Ripping someone who is "younger" than you in these areas is a form of bullying, I believe, and I don't want to do that here.]
No matter. I'm not going to get into an argument with you on this but I will clarify my statement:
"10 years" is a euphemism for "the future." It is not meant to highlight a specific date. [If memory serves, I think Salazar himself used the term in a recent T&FN interview to show how he and Rupp approached Rupp's career from day 1 when Rupp was in high school and how that long-term approach has paid off. (He might have said something like "...ten, fifteen years down the road..." )] It means looking at things in terms of The Big Picture.
[Cont.] You've heard of the phrase "going from Point A to Point B" perhaps? Well, your basic high school athlete--especially one brought up in a world of the American pro-sports attitude of Instant Gratification--wants to go from Point A to Point B and they want to have done it yesterday [i.e, they can't wait to do it].
A good coach knows that it isn't a matter of only going from Point A to Point B. Looking at The Big Picture, a coach--unless they are a self-serving jerk who uses a meatgrinder approach (which makes them a bad coach, IMHO) knows that an athlete's career is a matter of going from Point A to Point Z. In looking at the athlete's entire career, Point A to Point B is merely the first of many checkpoints along the way. A marathon, not a sprint.
Again, most high schoolers don't have the brain development to make decisions based on this principle (most people don't have this brain development fully until their early-mid 20's). To protect the athlete from themselves and those "bad coaches" that exploit rather than develop, I can fully understand why some parents would entrust their potentially "blue-chip" son or daughter to a proven coach who cares more about the long-term than looking good right away. [Think of all the grief Salazar took about his (still learning) methods all the way up until Farah and Rupp crossed the 10,000 meter finish line in London. It takes someone special to ignore the armchair generals criticizing him at every turn for years; that's the guy I'd want guiding my kid...!]
I do see your point, Aaron. And I'm sure you're correct with Cain's feeling about wanting to run fast--who doesn't when you're that age? But if, since that interview you mentioned in 2011 or 2012, she has committed herself to Salazar's long-term approach, she either realizes now or will soon that fast times come with optimum fitness and that fitness needs to progress accordingly in order to have that success/fast times on every respective level of a potentially world-class athlete's career. [A 3:59 mile gets you raves in high school; it doesn't even get you a spot on the line at Oslo when you're 25.]
Any one with talent can run fast. But it's the person who can do so on a given day that walks away with a championship. To do that takes a good program; good coaching.
Last edited by Brian on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Athletes and coaches bring certain things to the relationship. These things overlap at times, sure. But roughly, the athlete's role is one of execution of the training program while the coach's role is planning the program and the ongoing evaluation of same. [In time, with the athlete's greater maturity and experience, these parameters ideally shift to more of a partnership.] In other words--as I say a lot--the athlete works at it mostly from the neck down while the coach works at it mostly from the neck up. [IMHO, this a big reason why athletes who try to coach themselves are almost never as successful as athlete's with (good) coaches.]
Whatever happens with Cain, I think she is in fine hands and I applaud her and her family for wishing to do things as well as possible in The Big Picture. .
aaronk wrote:Mary herself said in an interview (in 2011 or 2012) that she wants to ALWAYS run fast.....for time.....and looks at times as more important to her than winning.
This interview has been quoted many times. Who conducted the interview?
I found it. It was a MaxPreps interview by Joseph Santoliquito, held on May 22, 2012, after her 4:39.28 Penn mile with that 62.5 last lap. Here is the VERBATIM quote.....from Mary herself.
"I'm very much of a time runner, trying to get down and build my strength. If I get a fast time, and I'm third, I'm still very excited. My goal has always been to get faster, and for me, improving at the Penn Relays is what I wanted to do. Every race for me is about running faster to see what I can do. I think a lot of runners look much more at who's the best when they line up. I try to focus on getting my best time."
Those are Mary's own words, soon after turning 16, and maybe 3 months before signing on with Salazar.
Marlow wrote:As an aside, I think Baxter won't touch Cain in track. XC yes, track, no.
Even if they compete in 5000?
Mary has been compared (by others, not me!!!!) to another Mary.....Decker, by name!!Which is apt, IMHO, because I believe Mary (Cain, that is!!) has unlimited potential at EVERY distance from 800 to 10,000 meters!!!
Was this her Astrodome (?) mark made on a super-sized indoor track of non-standard configuration? I do not remember much about that race, but retain the memory that she was denied a WR because of the conditions. I remember the time as about 4:17.
Yes, she ran 4:17+ indoors, but..... the 4:16.71 was at the Weltklasse in Zurich on August 21, 1985. Second and third in that Zurich race were..... Maricica Puica.......4:17.33 Zola Budd............ 4:17.57.
Yep, that was the race that Budd, then 19, ran her fastest mile!! Quite a mile race, eh??
we have some very young girls who are very good, 3 years younger than cain is daesha rogers.
rogers ran on her schools 3:43 relay, ran a 2:07 for 800, ran a 4:54 mile, got 2nd in state at 3 mile cross country, also won one of the states big cross country meet with one shoe on one shoe off she lost it in the first 50 meters of the 3 mile race. in the 800 she goes out in 58-60 and holds on, meaning she has not learned the advantages of even pacing yet.
rogers was born in 1999 and will graduate high school in 2017
so sarah baxter, mary cain, daesha rogers all amazing young talents, i hope they pan out.
I suspect this 3000m by Mary Cain was just the hors d'ourves to her season. That doesn't look right. You know, a little snack thing before the season, like a little meatball or cheese wedge. Of course it was a very fast meatball.
lionelp1 wrote:Hope the overcooked hyperbole about a 16 year old does not lead to one of you posters predicting a Olympic/World gold medal... just yet.
Funny you should say that!! As a comment on T&FN Facebook page, I said she COULD (as in MIGHT!!) run between 8:38 and 8:48 for the 3K, and between 9:10 and 9:20 for the 2 mile!! In Boston, I mean!
I was around in 1964 when Gerry Lindgren had his phenomenal indoor (AND outdoor!) season. You remember?? Two miles indoors in 9:00.0, then down to 8:46.0, finally down to 8:40.0. The latter two were against big name runners, Gaston Roelants and Ron Clarke. He went on to make the Olympic team that year in the 10K.
Why can't Mary Cain follow the same path? She's UBER-talented, has a great coach, and is super-motivated to run fast times!! I think that 9:02 is just the beginning, perhaps akin to Lindgren's 9:00.0.
BTW, interesting to note that Tirunish Dibaba is entered in that two mile!! Dibaba doesn't stand a chance against Cain!! (I was JOKING!!!)
But I DO think Mary can run what I said, above!! THIS year!! If she does, she'll be in the mix for a 1500 or 5K WC slot!! Medals?? That's a whole other matter!! (Lindgren, with a sprained ankle, finished 9th in that OG 10K!!)
FANTASTIC!!!! Mary is going after the High School Record in the 1 mile this Saturday in the Armory!! (front page article) I just called the Armory, and left a message on their Facebook page asking them to PLEASE time the runners at the 1500 meter mark, thus giving Mary the chance to get BOTH records, just as Alan Webb got both in 2001. (He actually has FOUR records, as he was also timed enroute in his outdoor race!!)
I KNEW Mary's desire to race for time, for RECORDS, wasn't going to be derailed by going with Salazar. Thank you, Alberto, for letting Mary be Mary!!
In the next two weeks, Mary could get FOUR High School Records, since the Boston people ARE going to time the runners at the 3000 meter mark enroute to the 2 mile!! That's been substantiated!
aaronk wrote:FANTASTIC!!!!! Mary is going after the HSR in the 1 mile, 1500m, 3000m and 2 mile!!! That's been substantiated!!
Possibly SIX if we can get them to time at 1000m and 3200m marks!?!?!?
You forgot to put THIS ( ) after your remark!! First of all, it has NOT been substantiated YET that the Armory will be timing them at the 1500 mark enroute!! I hope they do, but I don't know if they will.....yet.
Second, even I, maybe Mary's biggest supporter for her to chase records, do NOT believe she would stand a chance to get SIX records.....or five!! (I DO believe she can get the 1000 meter HSR, but NOT in this 1 mile race!! She'd have to run a 1000 meter race to get that record.)
They WILL be timing at the 3K enroute to the 2 mile at Boston, so ASSUMING she runs close to what she ran in Seattle, or even faster, she WILL get BOTH records!!
IF...IF the Armory times the runners at the 1500 mark enroute, Mary has an almost 100% chance to get BOTH records. And she won't even have to come close to her outdoor mark. She could run, say, 4:16 at the 1500 relatively comfortably, and finish in 17 seconds for a 4:33 mile (NOT 1600!!). If she runs under 4:13 at the 1500, she could go sub-4:30 in the mile!!
However, the 1000 mark ENROUTE to, say a 4:12 1500, would be about 2:48, much slower than Sarah Bowman's 2:43.40 HSR. BTW, Bowman herself will be in this race!!! As for the 1600 or 3200, those should be ABOLISHED!!! I don't give a rat's ass if they time the runners there!!!