T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rudisha


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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby gh » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:01 pm

eldanielfire wrote:
mump boy wrote:To set a gun to tape WR in a distance event, with no pacemakers would be astonishing enough but to do it on the biggest stage possible is out of this world


For something like the 800m I don't think pacemakers are so important, in fact Seb Coe said at times they could screw things up. As I said it just didn't do it for me like others. Good race but for me not the great thing it is for some.


Nonetheless, Coe was the beneficiary of a rabbit in his WR. Indeed, after Juanto at the '77 WUG, every WR until Rudisha had pacers.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby mump boy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:46 am

wallaby wrote: there was no real danger in the field.


:?

The silver medallist went 3rd on all time list and 3rd placer 10th, all under the previous OG record. Also in the field there's Kaki (6th) and Aman who is =10th all time from last year.

DR may have been the favourite but to run how he did (49.2 at bell) took extraordinary bravery, talent and self belief. Most other athletes in his position would have made Kitum sacrifice himself for their good but DC is too much is a class ac for that.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby John G » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:26 am

I'm with bobguild. There was a moment half way down the back straight where he seemed to select his final gear, destroying Aman and Kaki. I don't think there was much margin for error there.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby pickle47 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:24 pm

Also in the "not that great" camp, for the reasons already listed above. Don't get me wrong, it was a super race, but if you had asked me which OG running event I thought had the greatest probability of going in a WR, I would have said the M800. Rudisha clearly had more in tank after taking just snippets off the previous WR in his other two races, and still does.

And Rudisha has led pretty much every race, fast or very fast, from gut to tape. It's his style. I wonder, if he were to hang back the first 400, if he could muster a fast enough kick and win a 1:47 race from that same field. Maybe not. I don't think it took more guts for him to take the OG800 out from the gun; he really had no other choice. In his position as the best in the world right now, it's actually the safest, and surest, way for him to race.

Really not trying to knock him down a peg, I just put other races well before that one in terms of "greatness".
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby Daisy » Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:13 pm

Rudisha did not make my top twenty. I think the reason was I did not see the race on TV but saw the result on the internet. I ended up watching the actual race much later, and obviously knew the result. If I had seen it 'live' without knowing the outcome it may well have been in my top twenty.

Mump, thanks for another fun thread. But save those pieces of paper, just in case there needs to be a recount :twisted:
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby gh » Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:25 pm

pickle47 wrote:....
And Rudisha has led pretty much every race, fast or very fast, from gut to tape. It's his style. ...


Sorry, but completely wrong. Rudisha has broken 1:41 on 6 occasions other than London. Each had a paid rabbit in the lead at halfway:

1:41.01 Rieti '10
—(Tangui 48.20)
1:41.09 Berlin '10
—(Tangui 48.65)
1:41.33 Rieti '11
—(Tangui 48.60)
1:41.51 Heusden '10
—(Tangui 49.14)
1:41.54 Paris '12
—(Tangui 49.37)
1:41.74 NYC '12
— (Scherer 49.09)

It's obvious the secret to the London WR was getting that damned Tangui out of the way! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby Rog » Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:47 am

I thought David Rudisha was one of the stars of the Olympics, but I didn't vote for him either. Two reasons - yes, he broke the world record with a front running tactic, but that is the best way for him to run, he doesn't have a lightning fast kick. What was impressive was that he set a world record without pacemakers. The use of pacemaking has made all distance events boring and predictable to me, and I'm sure it has contributed greatly to the rise of the sprinters and hurdlers to being the sport's stars.

The bigger reason for me not voting for Daniel was that I think the 800 hasn't developed as much as other events yet. The record is only about 0.8 faster than it was 30 years ago. In that time the 1500 record has improved by over 5 seconds, so by middle distance standards progress in the 800 is comparatively lacking. In comparison to sprint events, the sea level 400 best has improved by 1.1 and the 200 by 0.8 in the same period - one would think the margins by which a sprint record could improve would be much smaller than a middle distance event, but not so. Even the sea level 100 record has improved by nearly half a second!

My number 1 was Usain Bolt in Beijing - beating a world record in the 100 despite basically slacking off with 20 to go is unheard of. In London Usain didn't break any individual records, but he was competing against himself in this regard, and I think his sprint records are the strongest of all world records. Despite what people say about Rudisha, I would still say Usain was the star athlete of the Games, not just in terms of star quality, but in terms of performance as well.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby John G » Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:40 am

[quote="pickle47"]And Rudisha has led pretty much every race, fast or very fast, from gut to tape. I don't think it took more guts for him to take the OG800 out from the gun; he really had no other choice. In his position as the best in the world right now, it's actually the safest, and surest, way for him to race.
quote]

I differ in one respect. Yes - his best tactic was gun to tape. However, there is a big difference between the gun to tape effort in Daegu - slow it down in the second 200; go through 400 in 51.3and then gradually wind it up to finish in the 1:43s - and the gun to tape effort in London.

The risk of mis-timing his effort and blowing up were much greater in London. Just ask Amann and Kaki: they should have finished in the top 4 but blew up due to the early pace.
That's why I agree it was a brave effort.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby mump boy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:54 am

I've forgotten to post the points for the last 2

I'm not 100% sure but i think while David had considerably more votes he was lower ranked on average then Usain. A lot of people voted for David but not necessarly high

I'll dig out the points when i get home and we can work it out

(don't hold your breath it's my b'day and i may not be home for a while !!)
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby Rog » Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:34 am

Happy Birthday Mump!

I can't remember whether or not you and Flump are twins - if so, Happy Birthday to Flump as well!!
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby bobguild76 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:53 am

Happy Birthday Mump! Enjoy the day. :-)
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby Fortius19 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:33 am

Happy Birthday Mump! Thanks for the thread!!

I have my pics at home. I think I've only commented on about ten of them so far.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby bobguild76 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:00 am

Rog wrote:I thought David Rudisha was one of the stars of the Olympics, but I didn't vote for him either. Two reasons - yes, he broke the world record with a front running tactic, but that is the best way for him to run, he doesn't have a lightning fast kick. What was impressive was that he set a world record without pacemakers. The use of pacemaking has made all distance events boring and predictable to me, and I'm sure it has contributed greatly to the rise of the sprinters and hurdlers to being the sport's stars.

The bigger reason for me not voting for Daniel was that I think the 800 hasn't developed as much as other events yet. The record is only about 0.8 faster than it was 30 years ago. In that time the 1500 record has improved by over 5 seconds, so by middle distance standards progress in the 800 is comparatively lacking. In comparison to sprint events, the sea level 400 best has improved by 1.1 and the 200 by 0.8 in the same period - one would think the margins by which a sprint record could improve would be much smaller than a middle distance event, but not so. Even the sea level 100 record has improved by nearly half a second!

My number 1 was Usain Bolt in Beijing - beating a world record in the 100 despite basically slacking off with 20 to go is unheard of. In London Usain didn't break any individual records, but he was competing against himself in this regard, and I think his sprint records are the strongest of all world records. Despite what people say about Rudisha, I would still say Usain was the star athlete of the Games, not just in terms of star quality, but in terms of performance as well.


Excellent points, Rog. But comparisons are always affected by when we start them ... For example, if we take the 800, it depends on if we begin before or after Seb Coe. Using 1976 Olympics as a starting point, here are the relative improvements in track (not including hurdles) WRs;

9.95 - 9.58 (3.72%)
19.72 - 19.19 (2.69%)
43.86 - 43.18 (1.55%)
1:43.50 - 1:40.91 (2.50%)
3:32.16 - 3:26.00 (2.90%)
8:08.02 - 7:53.63 (2.95%)
13:13.0 - 12:37.35 (4.50%)
27:30.8 - 26:17.53 (4.44%)

Granted, the first three are all altitude aided, so the percentage would be marginally higher. That underscores just how strong Usain Bolt's 100 record is, which very well may stand as WR for a looooong time.

But what this also shows, is how incredible the 5 & 10k records are. What Geb & Bekele have done to the respective WRs is absolutely stunning. Did they profit from pacemakers? Yes. But distance running is different from sprinting in so many ways, and they (Geb & Bekele) still had to finish the race to set the record. IMHO, what they have done in the distances is every bit as amazing as what Bolt has done in the sprints, and their WRs are every bit as strong.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:06 am

John G wrote:
pickle47 wrote:And Rudisha has led pretty much every race, fast or very fast, from gut to tape. I don't think it took more guts for him to take the OG800 out from the gun; he really had no other choice. In his position as the best in the world right now, it's actually the safest, and surest, way for him to race.


I differ in one respect. Yes - his best tactic was gun to tape. However, there is a big difference between the gun to tape effort in Daegu - slow it down in the second 200; go through 400 in 51.3and then gradually wind it up to finish in the 1:43s - and the gun to tape effort in London.

The risk of mis-timing his effort and blowing up were much greater in London. Just ask Amann and Kaki: they should have finished in the top 4 but blew up due to the early pace.
That's why I agree it was a brave effort.


On that note, why then is Gulnara Galkina's Beijing Steeplechase World Record not so popular? That was an incredible run from start to finish. I know it was a new event but as people have pointed out the 800m World Record improvements have hardly been spectacular and I suspect the Rudisha 800 memory will dim with time.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby Flumpy » Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:26 am

eldanielfire wrote:I know it was a new event but............


And there you have the answer.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:30 am

Flumpy wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:I know it was a new event but............


And there you have the answer.


I'll be clearly, new for the Olympics, certainly it was an event that had history. The run was still outstanding though, an amazing way to round off the final introduction of a Women's Athletics event to the program.


On another note cheers mump for doing this. Hours of time :D
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby gh » Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:57 am

eldanielfire wrote:....

On that note, why then is Gulnara Galkina's Beijing Steeplechase World Record not so popular? That was an incredible run from start to finish. I know it was a new event ...


Not only a new event but also one that hasn't drawn a heavy concentration of high-level distance talent. (As an aside, I also think the barriers aren't high enough to make it the challenge it should be)

I think stat-savvy people recognize that and downgrade the event accordingly.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Mar 20, 2013 12:53 pm

gh wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:....

On that note, why then is Gulnara Galkina's Beijing Steeplechase World Record not so popular? That was an incredible run from start to finish. I know it was a new event ...


Not only a new event but also one that hasn't drawn a heavy concentration of high-level distance talent. (As an aside, I also think the barriers aren't high enough to make it the challenge it should be)

I think stat-savvy people recognize that and downgrade the event accordingly.


It's always debatable if barrier races don't attract or frighten off racers. There was a great article in Athletics weekly explaining why the Steeplechase is a more difficult distance race. Galkina has posted times in the 5000m that are I the all time top performances and she was always a stronger steeplechaser long before it was an Olympic event.

It's is interesting that Mata Dominguez who was world champion in 2009 was a silver medallist in the 5000m twice and having only just been pipped by Dibaba who we see as the greatest female distance runner of all time for one of them. I'm not saying it's a all-time greatest, but I think you aren't quite giving it the credit t deserves.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No2 Bolt 100m

Postby EME1980 » Wed Mar 20, 2013 3:00 pm

mump boy wrote:. It helps that he is so perfect, such a class act, gorgeous running action, incredibly handsome, polite, humble, brave

:D :D


Couldn't agree with you more about Rudisha.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby pickle47 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:33 am

gh wrote:
pickle47 wrote:....
And Rudisha has led pretty much every race, fast or very fast, from gut to tape. It's his style. ...


Sorry, but completely wrong. Rudisha has broken 1:41 on 6 occasions other than London. Each had a paid rabbit in the lead at halfway:

1:41.01 Rieti '10
—(Tangui 48.20)
1:41.09 Berlin '10
—(Tangui 48.65)
1:41.33 Rieti '11
—(Tangui 48.60)
1:41.51 Heusden '10
—(Tangui 49.14)
1:41.54 Paris '12
—(Tangui 49.37)
1:41.74 NYC '12
— (Scherer 49.09)

It's obvious the secret to the London WR was getting that damned Tangui out of the way! :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I should self-banish for a month, shouldn't I...
Maybe Marlow will give me a TAFNY for most ignorant post of the year.
And did you have to bury me with the actual stats, when you could have just referenced that all of his fast races were rabbited?? :) Anyway, thanks for bringing me down to earth, gh. Promise to think through future comments a little more.
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby Daisy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:58 am

pickle47 wrote:I should self-banish for a month, shouldn't I...

No, no, no.. Think of it this way, you posed a perfectly plausible scenario and got gh to spend some his time to serve us a all some great stats. :)
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Re: T&FN Favourite Olympic Moment Poll Results No1 David Rud

Postby gh » Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:50 pm

nothing personal intended; just in keeping with our "facts, not fiction" credo
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