batonless relay wrote:Sport isn't everything. I think you are being extremely short-sighted about Carlos and his impact beyond sport. The same would go for Jesse Owens, Jackie Robinson or before being discredited, Lance Armstrong and his work with cancer. It might seem trivial to die-hard sports fans but questions about LIFE can be more important. (i would have asked about Norman if anything, but i wouldn't have slammed the people who wanted to ask about the other stuff).
HUH??? I'm not slamming anyone
It was us that misunderstood his place in the public's conciousness. With the event taking place right next to the Olympic Park and the games about to begin we'd assumed that would be the main topic of conversation but it wasn't at all. This of course could still have been an interesting evening had any of his answers lasted for less than 20 minutes, taken any form of linear narrative or for that matter made a blind bit of sense.
Rog wrote:I think the clearest illustration of the distinction between Ovett and Coe came in what they did with their 800m medals. Coe received his looking like he's been handed a turd, as Clive James put it, and kept a sour face through the ceremony. When Ovett got home, his gave his medal to a child who had a serious illness. Ovett was generous whilst Coe was utterly ungracious. It's easier to like Coe now but in his heyday he could be hard to take to.
Of course, if 1500m had been the first race and Coe had unexpectedly won it, he would still have been ungracious, and Ovett would have been generous with his silver (or bronze) medal, right?
odelltrclan wrote:My perception from this side of the pond was that Ovett was the elusive stand offish kind of guy
I could have written what John wrote above.
I think the perception of Ovett being stand offish comes from the fact that he did not like, or want, to talk to the press. But he was definitely the more popular of the two in the UK.
It seems to me Ovett was hugely difficult, though it was all beforemy time Ovett seemed to have the slight rebel rep despite beinging an arrogant sod. That Ovett used to wave to the crowd mid-race and it resulted in this:
eldanielfire wrote:Ovett seemed to have the slight rebel rep despite beinging an arrogant sod.
I never really viewed his antic as arrogant at the time. Possibly naivety on my behalf. I clearly remember the waves at Crystal Palace, they'd make the crowd erupt. I seem to remember the waves disappearing when the record chasing began. The pre-record chasing Ovett was more fun, for sure. He was a racer and not really a time trialer, that all changed in 81.
I just looked at the link. Sure, he lost to Treacy, ran like a dope, but that was an end of season race, possibly the last of the year? He was enjoying the crowd, as the crowd was enjoying his appearance. I wonder if he had anything other than a good laugh about it?
Interesting to note that the uploader who writes
Arrogance Personified:.....Steve Ovett (GB) with an overbearing display of superiority and self-importance, loses because of sheer arrogance
Then writes:
He had just won the 1500m Olympic Gold in Moscow and had numerous other titles to his name including many World Records
My sense is that this individual has an axe to grind and has no real knowledge of Ovett.
Rog wrote:I think the clearest illustration of the distinction between Ovett and Coe came in what they did with their 800m medals. Coe received his looking like he's been handed a turd, as Clive James put it, and kept a sour face through the ceremony. When Ovett got home, his gave his medal to a child who had a serious illness. Ovett was generous whilst Coe was utterly ungracious. It's easier to like Coe now but in his heyday he could be hard to take to.
Of course, if 1500m had been the first race and Coe had unexpectedly won it, he would still have been ungracious, and Ovett would have been generous with his silver (or bronze) medal, right?
From 1980 on Ovett lost quite a few big races and was always extremely gracious in defeat. Even before that - look at his reaction when he lost to Beyer in 78. Since retiring he has always been very modest about his achievements and has repeatedly said that he always knew Coe was a far better athlete than him.
My favourite Ovett story is one his ex-wife told about their young daughter coming home from school having learned about the Olympics (they were living in Oz and it was the build up to the Sydney Games). She couldn't wait to tell her Dad that a man with exactly the same name as him had once won a gold medal.
eldanielfire wrote:It seems to me Ovett was hugely difficult, though it was all beforemy time Ovett seemed to have the slight rebel rep despite beinging an arrogant sod. That Ovett used to wave to the crowd mid-race and it resulted in this:
Read Pat Butcher's book and see if it changes your perception.
BTW, I share Daisy's view. The Palace crowd LOVED the wave. Apart from a few direct competitors, most runners recognised Ovett as one of them - a VERY good club runner - and saw the wave as simply an expression of sheer exuberance and in no way a sign of arrogance towards the other competitors. In the end the crowd expected it and who could resist something that caused 17,000 people to roar their approval.
I can't access the video but have photos of the end of that race with Ovett hugging Treacy with a huge grin on his face.
From my perspective John, Rog and Daisy have it right; I'm in complete agreement with their viewpoints.
I did a list to enter on this thread but didn't submit it because of the browser warnings. My # 1 favorite Olympic moment was Ovett winning the 800m in Moscow. I was really really hoping he'd double and was disappointed in almost equal measure when he lost the 1500m to Coe. I often wondered what would have happened if the race hadn't been so "impacted" by the probably dodgy GDR athlete, Straub.
eldanielfire wrote:It seems to me Ovett was hugely difficult, though it was all beforemy time Ovett seemed to have the slight rebel rep despite beinging an arrogant sod. That Ovett used to wave to the crowd mid-race and it resulted in this:
Read Pat Butcher's book and see if it changes your perception.
I'd recommend the same to people who are vilifying Coe here. Would anyone still think of Coe as evil personified after reading that book?
BTW, I don't think any race Ovett lost since 1980 had the same significance as Coe's 800m, and that includes the 1500m in Moscow. So I think you are still comparing apples and oranges.
eldanielfire wrote:It seems to me Ovett was hugely difficult, though it was all beforemy time Ovett seemed to have the slight rebel rep despite beinging an arrogant sod. That Ovett used to wave to the crowd mid-race and it resulted in this:
Read Pat Butcher's book and see if it changes your perception.
I'd recommend the same to people who are vilifying Coe here. Would anyone still think of Coe as evil personified after reading that book?
BTW, I don't think any race Ovett lost since 1980 had the same significance as Coe's 800m, and that includes the 1500m in Moscow. So I think you are still comparing apples and oranges.
No one has vilified Coe. We just admitted that while everyone respects him, some of us don't particularly like him. Butcher's book reinforced my feelings.
Rog wrote:I think the clearest illustration of the distinction between Ovett and Coe came in what they did with their 800m medals. Coe received his looking like he's been handed a turd, as Clive James put it, and kept a sour face through the ceremony. When Ovett got home, his gave his medal to a child who had a serious illness. Ovett was generous whilst Coe was utterly ungracious. It's easier to like Coe now but in his heyday he could be hard to take to.
Coe or Ovett? One of the great rivalries in all sports. I have always been an Ovett fan.
I never met either of them, so my impressions are as a Yank who watched from the other side of the "pond". It always seemed to me that Ovett ran because he loved the racing and the camaraderie with other athletes, while Coe seemed to run because he was good at it, his father demanded it, and it was a means to an end. It never seemed that Coe derived pleasure from running and racing, while Ovett seemed to thrive on it.
There is no doubt that Coe deserves a special place in the pantheon of 800/1500 runners ... can't argue with 2 golds, 2 silvers, and the 800/1500/mile WRs. But Ovett was as untouchable in his heyday as anyone. He was Yifter-like in that explosive acceleration. Nowhere close to Coe in the Olympic medal category, just about even in the 1500/mile WR category, and several laps ahead of Coe in the; "Who would you want to sit in a pub with, share a pint, and listen to his stories" category.
bobguild76 wrote:Nowhere close to Coe in the Olympic medal category, just about even in the 1500/mile WR category, and several laps ahead of Coe in the; "Who would you want to sit in a pub with, share a pint, and listen to his stories" category.
This is the kind of comment that rubs me the wrong way.
Why can't people simply say "I like Ovett better than Coe" instead of saying "Ovett is more likable than Coe"? Is it an objective truth that anyone would rather sit with Ovett than Coe, instead of a matter of personal preference?
bobguild76 wrote:Nowhere close to Coe in the Olympic medal category, just about even in the 1500/mile WR category, and several laps ahead of Coe in the; "Who would you want to sit in a pub with, share a pint, and listen to his stories" category.
This is the kind of comment that rubs me the wrong way.
Why can't people simply say "I like Ovett better than Coe" instead of saying "Ovett is more likable than Coe"? Is it an objective truth that anyone would rather sit with Ovett than Coe, instead of a matter of personal preference?
Good point. Would it help if I had said; ".. in my opinion, several laps ahead ..."? In any case, based on my years of not having met either, I like Ovett better than Coe.
mump boy wrote:Seb Coe 1500m 84 93 points Lasse Viren double 97 points (across 2 events etc )
Both mine.
Coe for sticking it to the press at the end of the race. Not to mention managing to peak for the big event in a year that didn't start out so well.
Viren for doing what seemed impossible. 76 was pretty much my first Olympics and his achievement was the one that has stuck with me.
Two of my favorites as well. Please elaborate on "sticking it to the press". I don't remember anything about that.
Most of the press had written Coe off coming into the Olympics, but he peaked superbly and defended his 1500 title (as well as his 2nd 800 silver). After the race, and after his initial celebration, he turned to the press box and, with tremendous passion, anger, and relief, yelled; "NOW BELIEVE IN ME!!!" It was an amazing moment, and capped his equally amazing Olympic career.
Which also brings us nicely to the top 10, they will come individually with some intro.
I'm away at the european indoors so i'm not promising but i will try and get some posted this weekend
This was my #3. It was the fastest and slowest 40.82 seconds in my life. Twas a thing of beauty that I replay in my mind in slow motion, and it still seems blindingly fast. And to have the Jamaican team so close behind, or was it light years behind?!
One thing still amazes me ... that Jeter, while at full speed, focused on the win, KNEW that it was a WR even as she closed on the finish line. T&FN totally nailed it with their Olympic Issue cover photo.
bobguild76 wrote:One thing still amazes me ... that Jeter, while at full speed, focused on the win, KNEW that it was a WR even as she closed on the finish line.
That was an amazing moment. I didn't vote for it but I think as time goes on it will rise up my list.
As to Coe and the (British tabloid) press, your description above was exactly what I was thinking of. Many of the youtube videos have it, and it's not too hard to lip read.
the photo, i believe, is taken right before the line, and the clock was far enough ahed of the WR that Jeter knew what it meant. (or guessed well....those 100ths go by right quick at the end)
Lasse Viren double 97 points (across 2 events etc )
Which double you mean, 1972 or 1976? I voted for his 1972 10,000m and 1976 5,000m. I think the latter of these was already mentioned in the results. But did you classify the 1972 10,000m vote within the "double."
I think the 1972 10,000m run (which I had as my #1) is remarkable in itself, and will return to it soon. (Right now I am in the middle of my workday and just stole a few minutes to make this comment.)
Lasse Viren double 97 points (across 2 events etc )
Which double you mean, 1972 or 1976? I voted for his 1972 10,000m and 1976 5,000m. I think the latter of these was already mentioned in the results. But did you classify the 1972 10,000m vote within the "double."
I think the 1972 10,000m run (which I had as my #1) is remarkable in itself, and will return to it soon. (Right now I am in the middle of my workday and just stole a few minutes to make this comment.)
It's '76
Some people voted for 5k, some for 10k, some for the double, some for double doube !!
Coe for sticking it to the press at the end of the race. Not to mention managing to peak for the big event in a year that didn't start out so well.
Viren for doing what seemed impossible. 76 was pretty much my first Olympics and his achievement was the one that has stuck with me.
Two of my favorites as well. Please elaborate on "sticking it to the press". I don't remember anything about that.
Most of the press had written Coe off coming into the Olympics, but he peaked superbly and defended his 1500 title (as well as his 2nd 800 silver). After the race, and after his initial celebration, he turned to the press box and, with tremendous passion, anger, and relief, yelled; "NOW BELIEVE IN ME!!!" It was an amazing moment, and capped his equally amazing Olympic career.
Whilst I think Coe's 1500 win in 84 was his greatest Championship performance, to me his behaviour immediately after the race was deplorable. We had seen him lose gracelessly after the Moscow 800, but to win gracelessly, as he did here, is just appalling and, thankfully, rare. I note the comment about him showing "passion, anger, and relief", but to me it was an extremely ill-natured tantrum that showed what lay beneath the contrived public face. This is what finally turned me off him.
This was unquestionably a great performance. In the end however, I don't think he had much opposition. Cram was far from peak fitness and obviously Ovett (who Harry Wilson said was in the form of his life) had to drop out. I think Cram c. 1985/6 would have beaten Coe. Much as I love Ovett I've always felt that Cram is under-estimated and was actually the best miler out of the three. That 3:46 WRcould have been low 3:45s or even high 3:44s with a more even pace. Similarly, he should have got into the 3:28s.
Lasse Viren double 97 points (across 2 events etc )
Which double you mean, 1972 or 1976? I voted for his 1972 10,000m and 1976 5,000m. I think the latter of these was already mentioned in the results. But did you classify the 1972 10,000m vote within the "double."
I think the 1972 10,000m run (which I had as my #1) is remarkable in itself, and will return to it soon. (Right now I am in the middle of my workday and just stole a few minutes to make this comment.)
It's '76
Some people voted for 5k, some for 10k, some for the double, some for double doube !!
To be clear, I voted for the double double. So actually this is not one of my votes.
Rog wrote:I note the comment about him showing "passion, anger, and relief", but to me it was an extremely ill-natured tantrum that showed what lay beneath the contrived public face. This is what finally turned me off him.
It was pretty brief and I think the press deserved it. There was a good reason why Ovett refused to be interviewed by them.
Interestingly he is still that way.
He [script writer for the screen adaptation of Pat Butchers book] also revealed that although Coe was eager to give an interview, as he always was, media conscious Ovett was almost the opposite and even refused to be interviewed to assist in the writing of the screenplay.
Although I’m flattered by the interest, you don’t have to make a film – documentary, fiction or otherwise – about the Coe-Ovett years because anyone who wants to relive the excitement can watch it all on YouTube.
I’ve not heard anything more from the BBC about the project, so I assume it’s been left in the pending tray. And I hope it stays there.
Lasse Viren double 97 points (across 2 events etc )
Which double you mean, 1972 or 1976? I voted for his 1972 10,000m and 1976 5,000m. I think the latter of these was already mentioned in the results. But did you classify the 1972 10,000m vote within the "double."
I think the 1972 10,000m run (which I had as my #1) is remarkable in itself, and will return to it soon. (Right now I am in the middle of my workday and just stole a few minutes to make this comment.)
It's '76
Some people voted for 5k, some for 10k, some for the double, some for double doube !!
To be clear, I voted for the double double. So actually this is not one of my votes.
Yes it is, I'm added them all together.
It doesn't make any sense to have all those events ranked separately and languishing in the 50's
This was unquestionably a great performance. In the end however, I don't think he had much opposition. Cram was far from peak fitness and obviously Ovett (who Harry Wilson said was in the form of his life) had to drop out. I think Cram c. 1985/6 would have beaten Coe. Much as I love Ovett I've always felt that Cram is under-estimated and was actually the best miler out of the three. That 3:46 WRcould have been low 3:45s or even high 3:44s with a more even pace. Similarly, he should have got into the 3:28s.
I agree with John here. The Cram of 85 and 86 was awesome, running world records in actual races, not solo runs. His 800 in the 86 Commonwealth Games impressed me more than anything Coe ever achieved at the distance - a 1:43 off a negative split in a championship final in poor conditions. I think he could have beaten Coe's 800 record and certainly could have run 3:28.
Ovett didn't attempt world records during much of his peak period, and ran his fastest 1500 in 83, when he was no longer the dominating force of the late 70s. I would think he had a sub 3:30 in him as well. I could see him running Cram close, but I think Cram at his best would have been just too strong.
At their peak and in their very best form I could see an 800 going Cram>Coe>Ovett, and a 1500 Cram>Ovett>Coe. I'm sure some will find that controversial!
Which also brings us nicely to the top 10, they will come individually with some intro.
I'm away at the european indoors so i'm not promising but i will try and get some posted this weekend
This was my #3. It was the fastest and slowest 40.82 seconds in my life. Twas a thing of beauty that I replay in my mind in slow motion, and it still seems blindingly fast. And to have the Jamaican team so close behind, or was it light years behind?!
One thing still amazes me ... that Jeter, while at full speed, focused on the win, KNEW that it was a WR even as she closed on the finish line. T&FN totally nailed it with their Olympic Issue cover photo.
She probably thought that because the US team stated they thought for sure they could get the Olympic record. However the world record came as a surprise.
Undoubtably bolstered by the brit contingent and it being very fresh in our minds (i didn't vote for it) Mo Farah's home Olympic escapades give him another accolade to add to his recent achievements
Rog wrote:The Cram of 85 and 86 was awesome, running world records in actual races, not solo runs. His 800 in the 86 Commonwealth Games impressed me more than anything Coe ever achieved at the distance - a 1:43 off a negative split in a championship final in poor conditions.
I was there and can confirm it was blowing a gale and bloody freezing!!
Undoubtably bolstered by the brit contingent and it being very fresh in our minds (i didn't vote for it) Mo Farah's home Olympic escapades give him another accolade to add to his recent achievements
I voted for the 5000 as my #1. The 10000 was wonderful but wouldn't make my Top 10. I've never experienced an atmosphere like that Saturday night. I've seen plenty of games at Wembley and was in the Sydney stadium when Cathy Freeman won but even that didn't come close. Similarly, nothing apart from the birth of my kids has touched me so deeply. Several factors were at play (in no particular order): • The Games had exceeded everyone's expectations (even mine - and I'd been telling anyone who'd listen it would the week of our (British) lives). • The crowd was full of people who had waited 2 long weeks for the opportunity to shout themselves hoarse. It was Saturday night. Drink had been taken (personally I was too nervous). • Mo is a London boy and the perfect embodiment of multi-cultural Britain. After the 10. EVERYONE knew him and knew what a great bloke he was. Personally, when not in Oregon he lives in my town and trains in our local park. For the athletics fans: • There is an apreciation of what a double means and where it puts him in the history of the sport. • We knew the 5000 was going to be much tougher with a DEEP field (half the all-time top 10 having been re-written earlier in the year) • The slow early pace created so much tension. • The gradual wind up over the last mile added to it. • I was level with Mo when he took the lead and realised I'd peaked too soon (I was already shouting at my maximum volume). One lap later I'd got louder and noises were coming from me that were barely human. With 100 to go I couldn't hear myself. • One-by-one they'd queued up to have a go: Koech, Lomong, Gebriwot, Iguider, Longosiwa and finally Gebremeskel. For 2 horrible seconds I though teh latter was going to 'Do a Jeylan' but then came the most unbelieveable surge of relief and emotion.
Just when I thought the memory couldn't be topped I watched Crammy's commentary. The single greatest piece of bradcasting in the sport's history. I watch it at least once a week.
