Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

[Pego]

That's what I thought. Although these samples have of course been tested before. Someone must have known whose sample was whose. As long as those doing the testing aren't aware is it not ok to target individuals?

Not sure what is legal where. I am pretty sure it depends on whose jurisdiction it is. A targeted person's lawyer could always find some sort of discrimination. I would stick strictly to either testing everybody or random (blind) targets.

[Gabriella]

But we know that target testing does happen. Any athletes with 'unusual' results are targetted for further testing. That's how a lot of athletes have been caught out recently.

As the Athens samples were tested previously, I can imagine the chain of anonymity is not 100%. It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events. Unless, of course, when they talk about samples that have deteriorated, that actual whole events worth of samples have gone off. Would they store events results together in some circumstances? I remember back in Seoul they targetted a number of athletes per event and also targetted specific athletes to do a comparison. I would assume in order to do the comparative analysis they would store the samples of the same event together. It would be a travesty if this were the case here.

[18.99s]

How can she prove it?

The paper trail. All her Performance Reviews.
Goodyear had no documentation of poor performance, leading to the lower salary.

And how do we know those weren't falsified?

I think Goodyear was forced to directly provide her performance records to the court. If they were falsified by Ledbetter to make herself look better, she would have had to break into their HR files (whether paper or computer or both) to change the records without detection, which is a far-fetched scenario.

[Ned Ryerson]

How can she prove it?

The paper trail. All her Performance Reviews.
Goodyear had no documentation of poor performance, leading to the lower salary.

And how do we know those weren't falsified?

I think Goodyear was forced to directly provide her performance records to the court. If they were falsified by Ledbetter to make herself look better, she would have had to break into their HR files (whether paper or computer or both) to change the records without detection, which is a far-fetched scenario.

I know, my point was that while we have no evidence that she did anything like that, we can't prove she didn't. Similarly, while we can't prove that athlete X didn't dope simply because their test came back clean, they're inability to prove further that they didn't do something does not serve as viable evidence that they did. The onus is on the accuser to present compelling evidence.

[marknhj]

It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.

Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.

[mump boy]

It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.

Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.

Especially some of the sprinters who were at that games

[Dave]

It is drug cheats that bring discredit to the sport not catching them

Yeah, cuz the NFL, NBA and MLB are in such a sorry state for all their uncaught cheaters.
Again, I am not defending cheaters; I hate them and desperately want them caught, but if we are not good enough to catch them in the act, busting them EIGHT years later does little for the sport.

Thank you for stating this better than I had.

[Mighty Favog]

From Sports Illustrated's Tim Layden:

Yes, Adam Nelson has seen the reports about '04 shot put gold medalist Yuriy Bilonog)retroactively testing positive. Typically, Nelson, the silver medalist, emailed me a classy response: ``I heard the same rumor two days after the 2004 Olympics. Two weeks later, I received a call from someone after I returned home who had heard from a credible source within the Olympic movement that Yuri tested positive. This same story leaked just before this year's Olympic Games. If the rumors aren't true, then someone owes Yuri an apology. If they are true, I'll have a more to say.''

[polevaultpower]

Athletes in different events dope in different ways. It seems like throwers are more likely to use methods that the authorities are better at testing for. It doesn't _necessarily_ mean that they are being targeted more in the re-test process.

[Gabriella]

Athletes in different events dope in different ways. It seems like throwers are more likely to use methods that the authorities are better at testing for. It doesn't _necessarily_ mean that they are being targeted more in the re-test process.

I don't necessarily think throwers are being targetted, but I do find the results a little obvious. I agree that perhaps traditional methods and substances are used in throwing events, but the Athens samples were not kept for 8 years so we could just re-test for stanozolol and testosterone, it was for all those new sophiscated methods like 'The Clear', gene doping, and not so new methods like blood doping. I just find the 5 postives a little 'sacrificial lamb-like'. Not that I'm a conspiracy theorist or anything!

So, I am wondering whether the deteriorated samples are from whole events, say, the 100m, for example, or whether the sad reality is that come the champs, those cheats we do know from non throwing events really had clean samples by then and there was no trace of anything. But then, I was under the impression we'd come some way since 04.

[j-a-m]

In general that may be true, but in the case of world record holders, busting them 8 or 15 or 30 years later would be very good for the sport. Imagine what it would mean to current athletes if some of the records still standing from the 1980s got wiped off the books.

Does the statute of limitations apply to WRs as such? If the IAAF were to nullify a WR, without banning the athlete or taking away any individual achievements (other than being listed as WR holder), would that athlete have a case?

[j-a-m]

For those 1984 samples, how reliable would those tests be (both false negatives and false positives)?

The issue is probably how reliable the procedures of taking and storing the samples were in 1984, i.e. were they potentially mixed up or something like that? If something went wrong with the samples back then, there's virtually no way for an athlete to prove that; and that's one of the reasons a statute of limitations is that important.

[j-a-m]

However, as I have said before in this thread, having statutes of limitations is not a good idea for some things, and drug testing seems like something where it shouldn't exist. The victims of doping are the athletes who didn't dope -- unlike somebody who was robbed or is owed a debt, the athletes who have been wronged by dopers had neither the knowledge nor power to anything about the mutli-year delays in testing and retesting.

They did have the relevant knowledge, didn't they? Comparing the case of a silver medalist to the example of a stolen purse:

Your purse is gone. You probably lost it, but someone may have stolen it. There's only one suspect, the event has been caught on tape, but the tape is inconclusive. Ten years later, new technology emerges that enables you to further zoom into the videotape. Wouldn't the statute of limitations have started to run in the very beginning, given you had all the facts?

[Pego]

However, as I have said before in this thread, having statutes of limitations is not a good idea for some things, and drug testing seems like something where it shouldn't exist. The victims of doping are the athletes who didn't dope -- unlike somebody who was robbed or is owed a debt, the athletes who have been wronged by dopers had neither the knowledge nor power to anything about the mutli-year delays in testing and retesting.

They did have the relevant knowledge, didn't they? Comparing the case of a silver medalist to the example of a stolen purse:

Your purse is gone. You probably lost it, but someone may have stolen it. There's only one suspect, the event has been caught on tape, but the tape is inconclusive. Ten years later, new technology emerges that enables you to further zoom into the videotape. Wouldn't the statute of limitations have started to run in the very beginning, given you had all the facts?

This is clearly open to interpretation, but I would argue that you did not have all the facts at the beginning, since there was no tool to unlock them.

[gh]

It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.

Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.

Actually, it is conceivable, because as I understand it, what we have here is not a new "more sensitive" system that magically detects everything across the board, it's developments in technology that allow for finding new classes of product, or refining the procedures for certain products.

And given that the doping regimens vary so greatly across the spectrum of event groupings, I'm not all surprised that there may be "clusters" of positives.

Now if they could time-machine EPO/hct testing from the '90 and 00s, imagine what would likely to happen to a lot of distance types (while sparing Eastern European throwers).

[Blues]

It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.

Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.

Actually, it is conceivable, because as I understand it, what we have here is not a new "more sensitive" system that magically detects everything across the board, it's developments in technology that allow for finding new classes of product, or refining the procedures for certain products.

And given that the doping regimens vary so greatly across the spectrum of event groupings, I'm not all surprised that there may be "clusters" of positives.

Now if they could time-machine EPO/hct testing from the '90 and 00s, imagine what would likely to happen to a lot of distance types (while sparing Eastern European throwers).

Absolutely correct. An on-point post, and well said as always.

[mump boy]

It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.

Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.

Actually, it is conceivable, because as I understand it, what we have here is not a new "more sensitive" system that magically detects everything across the board, it's developments in technology that allow for finding new classes of product, or refining the procedures for certain products.

And given that the doping regimens vary so greatly across the spectrum of event groupings, I'm not all surprised that there may be "clusters" of positives.

Now if they could time-machine EPO/hct testing from the '90 and 00s, imagine what would likely to happen to a lot of distance types (while sparing Eastern European throwers).

You're so smart Gaz

[marknhj]

Your'e right gh, of course. I had assumed, wrongly I suppose, that they were re-testing for EPO, the Balco cocktails et al, and using all the latest available testing protocols across the board. If that was not the case, clusters of positives for old-school anabolics is entirely possible. In the rest of my life I am the antithesis of a conspiracy theorist! However, when sporting governing bodies are involved in policing their own territories nothing would surprise me. Coming up with a few sacrificial lambs from the east, and in the field events, would not surprise me at all.

[Tuariki]

The courts - at least those in the west - have accepted the latest in DNA technologies to prove the innocence of those wrongly convicted of crimes up to 30 or more years ago.

If the sporting bodies still have samples in storage it would be great to reverse the process and remove from the record books the cheats of the past.

Also the IOC and IAAF should introduce a retrospective rule removing all world records set prior to being caught with PEDs from any athlete caught on the presumption that everything they did was tainted.

[mump boy]

From Sports Illustrated's Tim Layden:

Yes, Adam Nelson has seen the reports about '04 shot put gold medalist Yuriy Bilonog)retroactively testing positive. Typically, Nelson, the silver medalist, emailed me a classy response: ``I heard the same rumor two days after the 2004 Olympics. Two weeks later, I received a call from someone after I returned home who had heard from a credible source within the Olympic movement that Yuri tested positive. This same story leaked just before this year's Olympic Games. If the rumors aren't true, then someone owes Yuri an apology. If they are true, I'll have a more to say.''

What a class act

[Gabriella]

Your'e right gh, of course. I had assumed, wrongly I suppose, that they were re-testing for EPO, the Balco cocktails et al, and using all the latest available testing protocols across the board. If that was not the case, clusters of positives for old-school anabolics is entirely possible.

But they are re-testing for EPO and Balco cocktails, surely?

We know that the powers that be could do more to right the wrongs of the past. Some of the positives we have seen over the last few years suggests there is still organised doping at some level in some of the former Soviet satelites.We have seen a large number of high profile Russian athletes failing tests - whole training groups of athletes in some cases (Tomoshova, Chizenko,Soboleva, Cherkasova, Yegorova et al) and yet the Russian Federation do not appear to have been chastised. Surely the message should be "clean up your act or your athletes will be banned from competing at the next Games"? But instead we get "here you are, have the 2013 World Championships!" The same should have been said to the US after Balco, but, of course, the IOC etc rely on the US corporations for sponsorship and paying shed loads for TV rights. How foolish of me! And then of course we have athletes like Bubka, a former Soviet and now Ukranian, who was possibly fed things (with or without his knowledge) while competing for the USSR, now a senior IOC figure. The Ukraine obviously has a doping problem, let's be honest here, yet I wonder how enthusiastic he is about fixing it? Goodness, could he even be privy to whatever doping is going on there? Stranger things have happened..Manfred Ewald...

So, forgive me for being a wee bit suspicious

[Blues]

We have to keep in mind that testing of Athens samples in most cases still only has the chance to catch careless or uninformed cheaters or those who felt that what they were using was undetectable. Even in 2004, most athletes knew to stop taking the PED in advance of the Olympics, since they knew they'd be tested. If they stopped soon enough and the substance was no longer in their systems, they weren't going to test positive then, and the majority of those same samples won't test positive now, even though the performance enhancing benefit of drugs like anabolic steroids and EPO still benefitted those athletes during the Olympic competition. So even if all the athletes from Athens that we might be most suspicious of had their samples retested, there are many who wouldn't test positive even if they were using prior to the Games, despite the better and more efficient testing technology of today. If the PED was already cleared from the cheaters urine when they pissed in the cup, we aren't going to find it.

As far as drugs like Balco's THG, Balco was raided in 2003, and testing for the substance was done in Athens in 2004 and it's not like the drug was still undetectable at that time, so anyone still using it knew at that time that they'd have to stop in advance of the Olympics to avoid being caught. I believe EPO is a little more difficult to detect than many other PEDs, and although the ability to detect it is better now, it's still detectable only for a relatively short time after it's injected, so again, if the drug wasn't used close to the date of competition in Athens, it most likely won't be detectable in those old samples now, despite the fact that users, while not testing positive, still would have had an unfair advantage in the number of red blood cells able to carry oxygen to the muscles.

The best way to catch and deter drug cheats isn't through urine sample collection at major competitions like the Olympics, it's through efficient unannounced random testing, and even today many national anti-doping programs lag far behind in this area, and certain nations either don't have an efficient anti-doping program of their own, or don't desire one.. I'm still in favor of retesting old samples with current technology for the small degree of justice it might result in, but it's important to remember that in many cases the smart cheaters won't be caught no matter when the sample is analyzed, regardless of the degree of advancement of the technology, at least when it comes to in-competition samples.

[guru]

IOC strips Bilonoh(and three others). Nelson moves to Athens gold.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ol ... c/1748563/

[gh]

I don't think I've seen anywhere that the IOC says medals will be reassigned. One certainly hopes so, but they haven't been consistent in that area.

[GDAWG]

Is there a statute of limitations on when the IOC makes a decision on the stripping of medals? Because the Russians want that 4 x 400 relay gold from 2004. When that decision is made, no doubt it'll be talked about on Twitter. The IOC was smart in not announcing a decision on that before the London Olympics as it would have been a major distraction for the two members of the relay squad that were competing in London (SRR and DeeDee Trotter). That decision needs to be made pretty soon though as it doesn't need to be a distraction for both SRR and Trotter if a decision is held off until late Summer, especially in a World Championships year.

[preston]

Is there a statute of limitations on when the IOC makes a decision on the stripping of medals? Because the Russians want that 4 x 400 relay gold from 2004. When that decision is made, no doubt it'll be talked about on Twitter. The IOC was smart in not announcing a decision on that before the London Olympics as it would have been a major distraction for the two members of the relay squad that were competing in London (SRR and DeeDee Trotter). That decision needs to be made pretty soon though as it doesn't need to be a distraction for both SRR and Trotter if a decision is held off until late Summer, especially in a World Championships year.

There shouldn't be much if anything to think about. If a member of a relay team tests positive (or later admits that they were using PED's during that event or even during that season) - even if they ran in the rounds/qf/sf - then the entire team must be disqualified.

[26mi235]

It is hard enough to get back Gold (or other) medals from those that are DQed. It is much harder to get them back from those that did not do the doping. Note that Johnson gave his back, but I think that was a result of the rule being different or at least not spelled out until somewhat later.

[GDAWG]

Is there a statute of limitations on when the IOC makes a decision on the stripping of medals? Because the Russians want that 4 x 400 relay gold from 2004. When that decision is made, no doubt it'll be talked about on Twitter. The IOC was smart in not announcing a decision on that before the London Olympics as it would have been a major distraction for the two members of the relay squad that were competing in London (SRR and DeeDee Trotter). That decision needs to be made pretty soon though as it doesn't need to be a distraction for both SRR and Trotter if a decision is held off until late Summer, especially in a World Championships year.

There shouldn't be much if anything to think about. If a member of a relay team tests positive (or later admits that they were using PED's during that event or even during that season) - even if they ran in the rounds/qf/sf - then the entire team must be disqualified.

Yes, but the IOC hasn't made that decision yet.

[mump boy]

Of course Nelson should get his gold but as Nevets pointed out earlier it gets more complicated after that. I don't think anyone would object to `manuel Martines getting the bronze in SP but do we want Tihon's fellow cheat Devyatovsky upgraded to Bronse in the HT ? or the delightful Ostapchuk getting her hands on a SP bronze. At least Cechlova's upgrade in the DT after Yatchenko's DQ means one medalist will be without suspicion

And people still tell me we're biased towards countries like BLR

[guru]

I don't think I've seen anywhere that the IOC says medals will be reassigned. One certainly hopes so, but they haven't been consistent in that area.

Well Nelson sure thinks he's getting it, and is calling it a career.

https://twitter.com/SITimLayden/status/ ... 0462686208

I'm officially retired. This is the capstone of my career.

[26mi235]

Seems to me a condition for an upgrade is no histories of drug penalties, or at least none longer than six months (often minor or 'inadvertent'). That takes care of several of the problematic cases.

[tandfman]

I don't think I've seen anywhere that the IOC says medals will be reassigned. One certainly hopes so, but they haven't been consistent in that area.

Well Nelson sure thinks he's getting it, and is calling it a career.

https://twitter.com/SITimLayden/status/ ... 0462686208

I'm officially retired. This is the capstone of my career.

Another tweet, directly from Adam Nelson:

I now know what it feels like to win a lifetime achievement award posthumously

[guru]

Excellent piece on Nelson by Tim Layden

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/w ... -put-gold/

[gh]

Leyden says this <<(Or perhaps, if IAAF deigns to give Nelson his medal, they could do it at the world championships in Moscow). >>

I could be wrong, but believe the IAAF is completely powerless in this situation. I think they can change the official results of the competition by fiat, but the power over the medals proper remains w/ the IOC.

[Flumpy]

And no revisionist medal has ever been awarded in public, especially not at a champs.

They'll reassign them but make sure it gets as little publicity as possible.