Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold


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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Ned Ryerson » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:40 am

Marlow wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:I'd like to see you say that when it's you're career that's been robbed. It's attitudes like yours that cheated Lilly Ledbetter out of a lifetime of earnings.

Error.
Lilly did nothing wrong and she can prove it.


How can she prove it?
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Blues » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:48 am

Marlow wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:I'd like to see you say that when it's you're career that's been robbed. It's attitudes like yours that cheated Lilly Ledbetter out of a lifetime of earnings.

Error.
Lilly did nothing wrong and she can prove it. How many of the newly crowned 'champions' were ALSO cheaters who didn't get caught? LOTS! The tests in the 70s, 80s, and 90s were virtually WORTHLESS, because we now know MANY cheated and passed the tests. Marion Jones NEVER popped positive! This is all OBE. Hopefully things are better now, but ALL of us are also convinced that cheaters are still out there winning medals. We do the best we can at the time, but trying to dig up old graves will just uncover more rotting corpses. There's plenty more where they came from.


There may be plenty more where they came from, but not as many with usable preserved samples with the necessary chain of custody..

Everybody, including the cheaters, knows that there's always a time lag between the latest doping technology and the technology used to detect the doping... Do you believe then, that there's essentially no deterrent effect from retesting at a later date when the detection methods might be more efficient? If there's even a slight deterrent effect, why isn't that a good thing for the sport?
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby pakillo » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:05 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:
pakillo wrote:If you can't prove or do not want to prove it at the time of the competition then DON'T COME BACK 10 YEARS later and strip the athlete of an award that your lab techs couldn't (or...) find guilty! It's as simple as that.

I hope some of you are not hardcore IOC-believers :?


I can only support Krivelyova now : "I'll just tell them to go to hell If they come and ask for my medal" nicccce :D
http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp? ... sec=sports


I'd like to see you say that when it's you're career that's been robbed. It's attitudes like yours that cheated Lilly Ledbetter out of a lifetime of earnings.

No that's totally not attitude of mine and please...stop insisting on that case, I wouldn't compare doping in sport with stuff like that.

Poor Ben Johnson, he could have been a millionaire if he hadn't been the ONLY ONE on steroids in Seoul. Am I supposed to believe he was the only one ? I am for real justice, not for some IOC's selective , suspicious, shitty re-testing!
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby preston » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:09 am

polevaultpower wrote:
preston wrote:This whole "he could have maximized his financial reward if he were the rightful champion" argument is just as ridiculous. He's a shotputter! Let's use a little perspective here.


I talked to Rick Suhr this fall and he said there was a huge difference in the interest they received from sponsors and the media after winning gold versus winning silver. I definitely think that Adam could have made quite a bit more money as a gold medalist. It's not the different between being poor and being a millionaire, but I'm sure it would have made a big difference to him at the time.

Pole vault woman is different than a SP man (or woman). Some events just don't move marketers/sponsors; something that many athletes are going to find out when they can't find sponsors beyond shoe companies (some of the shoe companies don't even make SP shoes). LaShawn Merritt has already said that he didn't benefit more after his 400m gold in Beijing? Nelson was resourceful in finding sponsors but an Olympic Gold's effect on his bottom line would have been nominal, imo. Do you remember seeing a Joe DeLoach commercial? I don't.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby preston » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:12 am

pakillo wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:
pakillo wrote:If you can't prove or do not want to prove it at the time of the competition then DON'T COME BACK 10 YEARS later and strip the athlete of an award that your lab techs couldn't (or...) find guilty! It's as simple as that.

I hope some of you are not hardcore IOC-believers :?


I can only support Krivelyova now : "I'll just tell them to go to hell If they come and ask for my medal" nicccce :D
http://thestar.com.my/sports/story.asp? ... sec=sports


I'd like to see you say that when it's you're career that's been robbed. It's attitudes like yours that cheated Lilly Ledbetter out of a lifetime of earnings.

No that's totally not attitude of mine and please...stop insisting on that case, I wouldn't compare doping in sport with stuff like that.

Poor Ben Johnson, he could have been a millionaire if he hadn't been the ONLY ONE on steroids in Seoul. Am I supposed to believe he was the only one ? I am for real justice, not for some IOC's selective , suspicious, shitty re-testing!

Doesn't sound like you're for real justice at all; it sounds like you're for semantics and philosophical points to justify cheats retaining their illgotten goods. Catching cheats is justice. Punishing them for misdeeds is justice.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Marlow » Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:42 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:How can she prove it?

The paper trail. All her Performance Reviews.
Goodyear had no documentation of poor performance, leading to the lower salary.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Ned Ryerson » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:02 am

Marlow wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:How can she prove it?

The paper trail. All her Performance Reviews.
Goodyear had no documentation of poor performance, leading to the lower salary.


And how do we know those weren't falsified?

My point is testing (as well as non-analytical positives) are our measure of proof. No system, even those in Ledbetter's case, is perfect but it's what we have to go on.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Ned Ryerson » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:13 am

preston wrote:Pole vault woman is different than a SP man (or woman). Some events just don't move marketers/sponsors; something that many athletes are going to find out when they can't find sponsors beyond shoe companies (some of the shoe companies don't even make SP shoes). LaShawn Merritt has already said that he didn't benefit more after his 400m gold in Beijing? Nelson was resourceful in finding sponsors but an Olympic Gold's effect on his bottom line would have been nominal, imo. Do you remember seeing a Joe DeLoach commercial? I don't.


Let's forget the outside sponsorships (which I think can be done if you have the hardware). You must acknowledge that Nelson lost money in the way of bonuses, larger contracts and appearance fees that would have been available to him, had he been properly awarded the gold medal back in Athens.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Marlow » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:22 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:How can she prove it?

The paper trail. All her Performance Reviews.
Goodyear had no documentation of poor performance, leading to the lower salary.

1. And how do we know those weren't falsified?
2. My point is testing (as well as non-analytical positives) are our measure of proof. No system, even those in Ledbetter's case, is perfect but it's what we have to go on.

??!!
1. How do we know the dope test results are valid? If someone is willing to go that far to get you, you're effed anyway.
2. The tests prove who was bad at covering their PED use. They do NOT prove that an athlete did NOT use PEDs.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby preston » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:34 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:
preston wrote:Pole vault woman is different than a SP man (or woman). Some events just don't move marketers/sponsors; something that many athletes are going to find out when they can't find sponsors beyond shoe companies (some of the shoe companies don't even make SP shoes). LaShawn Merritt has already said that he didn't benefit more after his 400m gold in Beijing? Nelson was resourceful in finding sponsors but an Olympic Gold's effect on his bottom line would have been nominal, imo. Do you remember seeing a Joe DeLoach commercial? I don't.


Let's forget the outside sponsorships (which I think can be done if you have the hardware). You must acknowledge that Nelson lost money in the way of bonuses, larger contracts and appearance fees that would have been available to him, had he been properly awarded the gold medal back in Athens.

I do acknowledge that he lost SOME money; I just don't think it's as much as some think it would have been - especially the ones who think he lost a LOT of money. I never waded into the Nick Symmonds "fling open the doors" debates this summer but some of you are in for a big surprise if you think that marketers are just waiting to endorse T&F athletes. I just don't see that. And, the SP? It's just not a marketers dream. (now, if upon winning, Nelson would have ripped off his shirt, pulled some dishes out of his bag and then did that Greek dance where he breaks dishes all over the circle; and then ran into the stands to kiss the Greek Prime Minister's wife on the lips...all while draped in a toga? maybe. Dartmouth guy, toga... hmm Some of you movie buffs may get that)

Also, I've seen the shoe companies CUT medalists, so there is no guarantee he would have signed a bigger contract. (Maybe one of the Dartmouth alums CEO's would have found a use for him, but generic marketer...? I doubt it.) Aside from the bonuses of THAT year, there is little that says that subsequent years would have been bountiful.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Ned Ryerson » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:40 am

Marlow wrote:??!!
1. How do we know the dope test results are valid? If someone is willing to go that far to get you, you're effed anyway.
2. The tests prove who was bad at covering their PED use. They do NOT prove that an athlete did NOT use PEDs.


1. We're limited in our ability know anything. So we go with our best available evidence, doing our best to judge its reliability, knowing nothing will ever be completely certain.
2. You're right, we can't prove a negative assertion. And because that, we've set up our system to prove beyond a reasonable doubt who did what, and instead of putting people in the position to prove they didn't do what.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby marknhj » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:41 am

The inability to catch and punish everybody who did cheat is not a justification for deliberately not catching and punishing those who can be shown to have cheated.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Ned Ryerson » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:44 am

preston wrote:I do acknowledge that he lost SOME money; I just don't think it's as much as some think it would have been - especially the ones who think he lost a LOT of money. I never waded into the Nick Symmonds "fling open the doors" debates this summer but some of you are in for a big surprise if you think that marketers are just waiting to endorse T&F athletes. I just don't see that. And, the SP? It's just not a marketers dream. (now, if upon winning, Nelson would have ripped off his shirt, pulled some dishes out of his bag and then did that Greek dance where he breaks dishes all over the circle; and then ran into the stands to kiss the Greek Prime Minister's wife on the lips...all while draped in a toga? maybe. Dartmouth guy, toga... hmm Some of you movie buffs may get that)

Also, I've seen the shoe companies CUT medalists, so there is no guarantee he would have signed a bigger contract. (Maybe one of the Dartmouth alums CEO's would have found a use for him, but generic marketer...? I doubt it.) Aside from the bonuses of THAT year, there is little that says that subsequent years would have been bountiful.


I'm not a person that says there are millions in waiting for track athletes, if they could only plaster themselves full of logos. But there are opportunities for money in and outside of the sport for Olympic Champions, and no matter how big or small, neither Adam Nelson nor anyone else deserves to be robbed of those opportunities, never mind the recognition.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby preston » Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:49 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:...and no matter how big or small, neither Adam Nelson nor anyone else deserves to be robbed of those opportunities, never mind the recognition.

I agree with that wholeheartedly!
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby marknhj » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:04 pm

preston wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:...and no matter how big or small, neither Adam Nelson nor anyone else deserves to be robbed of those opportunities, never mind the recognition.

I agree with that wholeheartedly!


One economic factor that you may not have considered: track & field Olympic Champions in countries other than the USA become nationally famous, extremely famous, for the rest of their lives. I've always felt sorry for American athletes in this context.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby mump boy » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:15 pm

marknhj wrote:The inability to catch and punish everybody who did cheat is not a justification for deliberately not catching and punishing those who can be shown to have cheated.


It's so obvious it doesn't really warrant stating but some people on here choose not to understand the basic tenets of justice
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby preston » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:22 pm

marknhj wrote:
preston wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:...and no matter how big or small, neither Adam Nelson nor anyone else deserves to be robbed of those opportunities, never mind the recognition.

I agree with that wholeheartedly!


One economic factor that you may not have considered: track & field Olympic Champions in countries other than the USA become nationally famous, extremely famous, for the rest of their lives. I've always felt sorry for American athletes in this context.

I definitely considered it; in fact, I know of it first hand. Athletes from other countries are lavished with rewards Americans could only dream of. Parliament seats; million dollar homes/property, etc. I'm aware, better than you might know. So when I weigh the accomplishments of a balding ivy-league SP'r with a very thick neck I can only think that it either boosts his resume/CV on a job or graduate school application or the largesse of an Alumni is brought to bear. I don't think he's the next "Mary Lou Retton".
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Flumpy » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:06 pm

Gabriella wrote:My concern is why they only tested a number of the samples and on what basis did they make the decision to test the samples they did. I have this awful feeling inside that they chose to test certain events or athletes from certain countries. I'm not against target testing per se, but I can imagine someone, somewhere, with a bit of clout didnt wan't certain samples re-tested.


There is one particularly obvious person who should have been retested although his samples coming up positive (As they undoubtedly would have) may have been more publicity than the authorities would want.

Having said that are they able to specifically choose whose tested or are the samples still anonymous until they test positive.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Pego » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:15 pm

Flumpy wrote:Having said that are they able to specifically choose whose tested or are the samples still anonymous until they test positive.


I think they have to be blind. The seal should be broken after the results are in. That is the only fair way of doing it.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Flumpy » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:18 pm

That's what I thought. Although these samples have of course been tested before. Someone must have known whose sample was whose. As long as those doing the testing aren't aware is it not ok to target individuals?
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Pego » Tue Nov 27, 2012 1:38 pm

Flumpy wrote:That's what I thought. Although these samples have of course been tested before. Someone must have known whose sample was whose. As long as those doing the testing aren't aware is it not ok to target individuals?


Not sure what is legal where. I am pretty sure it depends on whose jurisdiction it is. A targeted person's lawyer could always find some sort of discrimination. I would stick strictly to either testing everybody or random (blind) targets.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Gabriella » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:36 pm

But we know that target testing does happen. Any athletes with 'unusual' results are targetted for further testing. That's how a lot of athletes have been caught out recently.

As the Athens samples were tested previously, I can imagine the chain of anonymity is not 100%. It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events. Unless, of course, when they talk about samples that have deteriorated, that actual whole events worth of samples have gone off. Would they store events results together in some circumstances? I remember back in Seoul they targetted a number of athletes per event and also targetted specific athletes to do a comparison. I would assume in order to do the comparative analysis they would store the samples of the same event together. It would be a travesty if this were the case here.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby 18.99s » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:54 pm

Ned Ryerson wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:How can she prove it?

The paper trail. All her Performance Reviews.
Goodyear had no documentation of poor performance, leading to the lower salary.


And how do we know those weren't falsified?

I think Goodyear was forced to directly provide her performance records to the court. If they were falsified by Ledbetter to make herself look better, she would have had to break into their HR files (whether paper or computer or both) to change the records without detection, which is a far-fetched scenario.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Ned Ryerson » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:16 pm

18.99s wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Ned Ryerson wrote:How can she prove it?

The paper trail. All her Performance Reviews.
Goodyear had no documentation of poor performance, leading to the lower salary.


And how do we know those weren't falsified?

I think Goodyear was forced to directly provide her performance records to the court. If they were falsified by Ledbetter to make herself look better, she would have had to break into their HR files (whether paper or computer or both) to change the records without detection, which is a far-fetched scenario.


I know, my point was that while we have no evidence that she did anything like that, we can't prove she didn't. Similarly, while we can't prove that athlete X didn't dope simply because their test came back clean, they're inability to prove further that they didn't do something does not serve as viable evidence that they did. The onus is on the accuser to present compelling evidence.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby marknhj » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:39 pm

Gabriella wrote:It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.


Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby mump boy » Tue Nov 27, 2012 3:49 pm

marknhj wrote:
Gabriella wrote:It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.


Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.


Especially some of the sprinters who were at that games :shock:
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Dave » Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:31 pm

Marlow wrote:
mump boy wrote:It is drug cheats that bring discredit to the sport not catching them :roll:

Yeah, cuz the NFL, NBA and MLB are in such a sorry state for all their uncaught cheaters. :roll:
Again, I am not defending cheaters; I hate them and desperately want them caught, but if we are not good enough to catch them in the act, busting them EIGHT years later does little for the sport.


Thank you for stating this better than I had.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Mighty Favog » Tue Nov 27, 2012 7:08 pm

From Sports Illustrated's Tim Layden:

Yes, Adam Nelson has seen the reports about '04 shot put gold medalist Yuriy Bilonog)retroactively testing positive. Typically, Nelson, the silver medalist, emailed me a classy response: ``I heard the same rumor two days after the 2004 Olympics. Two weeks later, I received a call from someone after I returned home who had heard from a credible source within the Olympic movement that Yuri tested positive. This same story leaked just before this year's Olympic Games. If the rumors aren't true, then someone owes Yuri an apology. If they are true, I'll have a more to say.''
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby polevaultpower » Tue Nov 27, 2012 9:39 pm

Athletes in different events dope in different ways. It seems like throwers are more likely to use methods that the authorities are better at testing for. It doesn't _necessarily_ mean that they are being targeted more in the re-test process.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Gabriella » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:27 am

polevaultpower wrote:Athletes in different events dope in different ways. It seems like throwers are more likely to use methods that the authorities are better at testing for. It doesn't _necessarily_ mean that they are being targeted more in the re-test process.


I don't necessarily think throwers are being targetted, but I do find the results a little obvious. I agree that perhaps traditional methods and substances are used in throwing events, but the Athens samples were not kept for 8 years so we could just re-test for stanozolol and testosterone, it was for all those new sophiscated methods like 'The Clear', gene doping, and not so new methods like blood doping. I just find the 5 postives a little 'sacrificial lamb-like'. Not that I'm a conspiracy theorist or anything!

So, I am wondering whether the deteriorated samples are from whole events, say, the 100m, for example, or whether the sad reality is that come the champs, those cheats we do know from non throwing events really had clean samples by then and there was no trace of anything. But then, I was under the impression we'd come some way since 04.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby j-a-m » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:20 am

18.99s wrote:In general that may be true, but in the case of world record holders, busting them 8 or 15 or 30 years later would be very good for the sport. Imagine what it would mean to current athletes if some of the records still standing from the 1980s got wiped off the books.

Does the statute of limitations apply to WRs as such? If the IAAF were to nullify a WR, without banning the athlete or taking away any individual achievements (other than being listed as WR holder), would that athlete have a case?
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby j-a-m » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:24 am

26mi235 wrote:For those 1984 samples, how reliable would those tests be (both false negatives and false positives)?

The issue is probably how reliable the procedures of taking and storing the samples were in 1984, i.e. were they potentially mixed up or something like that? If something went wrong with the samples back then, there's virtually no way for an athlete to prove that; and that's one of the reasons a statute of limitations is that important.
Last edited by j-a-m on Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby j-a-m » Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:32 am

18.99s wrote:However, as I have said before in this thread, having statutes of limitations is not a good idea for some things, and drug testing seems like something where it shouldn't exist. The victims of doping are the athletes who didn't dope -- unlike somebody who was robbed or is owed a debt, the athletes who have been wronged by dopers had neither the knowledge nor power to anything about the mutli-year delays in testing and retesting.

They did have the relevant knowledge, didn't they? Comparing the case of a silver medalist to the example of a stolen purse:

Your purse is gone. You probably lost it, but someone may have stolen it. There's only one suspect, the event has been caught on tape, but the tape is inconclusive. Ten years later, new technology emerges that enables you to further zoom into the videotape. Wouldn't the statute of limitations have started to run in the very beginning, given you had all the facts?
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Pego » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:08 am

j-a-m wrote:
18.99s wrote:However, as I have said before in this thread, having statutes of limitations is not a good idea for some things, and drug testing seems like something where it shouldn't exist. The victims of doping are the athletes who didn't dope -- unlike somebody who was robbed or is owed a debt, the athletes who have been wronged by dopers had neither the knowledge nor power to anything about the mutli-year delays in testing and retesting.

They did have the relevant knowledge, didn't they? Comparing the case of a silver medalist to the example of a stolen purse:

Your purse is gone. You probably lost it, but someone may have stolen it. There's only one suspect, the event has been caught on tape, but the tape is inconclusive. Ten years later, new technology emerges that enables you to further zoom into the videotape. Wouldn't the statute of limitations have started to run in the very beginning, given you had all the facts?


This is clearly open to interpretation, but I would argue that you did not have all the facts at the beginning, since there was no tool to unlock them.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby gh » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:12 am

marknhj wrote:
Gabriella wrote:It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.


Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.


Actually, it is conceivable, because as I understand it, what we have here is not a new "more sensitive" system that magically detects everything across the board, it's developments in technology that allow for finding new classes of product, or refining the procedures for certain products.

And given that the doping regimens vary so greatly across the spectrum of event groupings, I'm not all surprised that there may be "clusters" of positives.

Now if they could time-machine EPO/hct testing from the '90 and 00s, imagine what would likely to happen to a lot of distance types (while sparing Eastern European throwers).
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Blues » Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:46 am

gh wrote:
marknhj wrote:
Gabriella wrote:It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.


Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.


Actually, it is conceivable, because as I understand it, what we have here is not a new "more sensitive" system that magically detects everything across the board, it's developments in technology that allow for finding new classes of product, or refining the procedures for certain products.

And given that the doping regimens vary so greatly across the spectrum of event groupings, I'm not all surprised that there may be "clusters" of positives.

Now if they could time-machine EPO/hct testing from the '90 and 00s, imagine what would likely to happen to a lot of distance types (while sparing Eastern European throwers).


Absolutely correct. An on-point post, and well said as always.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby mump boy » Wed Nov 28, 2012 7:30 am

gh wrote:
marknhj wrote:
Gabriella wrote:It just seems strange to me that the 5 failed re-tests are all from throwing events. I really dont think that throwers are cheating more than other events.


Coming up with Eastern European throwers simply does not pass the smell test. It's inconceivable that no sprinters, or middle and long distance runners were not also positive in Athens.


Actually, it is conceivable, because as I understand it, what we have here is not a new "more sensitive" system that magically detects everything across the board, it's developments in technology that allow for finding new classes of product, or refining the procedures for certain products.

And given that the doping regimens vary so greatly across the spectrum of event groupings, I'm not all surprised that there may be "clusters" of positives.

Now if they could time-machine EPO/hct testing from the '90 and 00s, imagine what would likely to happen to a lot of distance types (while sparing Eastern European throwers).


You're so smart Gaz :D
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby marknhj » Wed Nov 28, 2012 8:03 am

Your'e right gh, of course. I had assumed, wrongly I suppose, that they were re-testing for EPO, the Balco cocktails et al, and using all the latest available testing protocols across the board. If that was not the case, clusters of positives for old-school anabolics is entirely possible. In the rest of my life I am the antithesis of a conspiracy theorist! However, when sporting governing bodies are involved in policing their own territories nothing would surprise me. Coming up with a few sacrificial lambs from the east, and in the field events, would not surprise me at all.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby Tuariki » Wed Nov 28, 2012 11:19 am

The courts - at least those in the west - have accepted the latest in DNA technologies to prove the innocence of those wrongly convicted of crimes up to 30 or more years ago.

If the sporting bodies still have samples in storage it would be great to reverse the process and remove from the record books the cheats of the past.

Also the IOC and IAAF should introduce a retrospective rule removing all world records set prior to being caught with PEDs from any athlete caught on the presumption that everything they did was tainted.
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Re: Adam Nelson May Yet Get That Elusive Oly Gold

Postby mump boy » Wed Nov 28, 2012 1:14 pm

Mighty Favog wrote:From Sports Illustrated's Tim Layden:

Yes, Adam Nelson has seen the reports about '04 shot put gold medalist Yuriy Bilonog)retroactively testing positive. Typically, Nelson, the silver medalist, emailed me a classy response: ``I heard the same rumor two days after the 2004 Olympics. Two weeks later, I received a call from someone after I returned home who had heard from a credible source within the Olympic movement that Yuri tested positive. This same story leaked just before this year's Olympic Games. If the rumors aren't true, then someone owes Yuri an apology. If they are true, I'll have a more to say.''


What a class act :D
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