Where does Little Mary (Cain) go now?

[PDJ551]

To respond to the school that urges Salazar "To leave well enough alone" takes me back to the days just before the 1984 Olympics. I was attending a summer track camp in which Arthur Lydiard was the guest lecturer. Every morning, after we ran a shake up run with him, he would explain another feature of his program. In the afternoon he would teach us his drills and critique our running form. In the evening we would watch various video tapes on running. At that time Salazar was one of the best in the world and we had high hopes for him in the upcoming Games. Lydiard shocked us by stating that Salazar had to many biomechanical flaws which not only would hinder his performances but injuries would soon most likely occur. No one said anything in response but most of us wouldn't accept that assessment. But Lydiard was proved to be correct.

Not long ago Lydiard explained how his poor form sabotaged his career. As a result he pays much attention to form. Most certainly there have been runners who have done very well with poor form, but I tend to agree with Lydiard and Salazar on the importance of proper form.

[aaronk]

The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled!

Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??

[Dutra5]

The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled!

Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??

Bizarre. Just bizarre.

[aaronk]

The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled!

Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??

Bizarre. Just bizarre.

What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??

This NYC race was to include an elite field, including Uhl and Simpson, among several other World Class Americans.
It would have been a golden opportunity for Mary to strut her stuff against Olympians!!

I don't think it's bizarre to question whether she'll have another race to go to!!
Not to mention Simpson, Uhl and company!!)

[Blues]

Regarding biomechanics, in Mary's case she seems to have a bone structure that results in narrower shoulders than most other athletes.. I wonder if at least some of her allegedly poor upper body biomechanics might actually be more efficient for her anatomy than what's commonly accepted as correct biomechanics, since differing physiques and bone structures can affect types and ranges of motion.. Regardless, it'll be interesting to see how her form changes in the future.

[Dutra5]

What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??

The infatuation with a HSer

[aaronk]

What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??

The infatuation with a HSer

Here we go again!
Let's see, in the course of this "discussion" on this thread, I've been called...
"obsessed"
"creepy"
"bizarre"
"infatuated".
What's next?? (I won't even guess!!)

But let's look at some salient FACTS...which name-callers don't usually do!!

1. This thread now has close to 100 comments, and has been viewed well over 2000 times!!
I guess others are "interested" (Won't use the above terms!!) in Mary too!!

2. Mary holds the frosh and soph HSR's in the 1500, plus 1 or 3 other class records. She not only just broke Hasay's mark (Another HS'er many were "obsessed" with in her HS days!!), she SMASHED it into another galaxy!!

3. Alberto Salazar, probably THE most beloved and respected distance coach extant today, met her for 5 seconds, then watched a 5 minute YouTube video, and called her to ask if he could be her coach!! Tell me, what name would you apply to HIM??

4. While she only came in 2nd in the 2012 AOY voting (Not surprised in such a LOADED girls field!!), in ANY other year, she'd be a CLEAR # 1!!

5. Salazar had placed her in a road 5K (now cancelled) LOADED with American Olympians and record-setters!! This for "a 16 year old girl".....or "a HS'er". She's also been dubbed "the next Mary Decker"!! And it wasn't ME who so dubbed her!!

I thought name calling was BANNED from this forum!! Guess not!!

[Dutra5]

What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??

The infatuation with a HSer

Here we go again!
Let's see, in the course of this "discussion" on this thread, I've been called...
"obsessed"
"creepy"
"bizarre"
"infatuated".
What's next?? (I won't even guess!!)

Exactly

[aaronk]

What's "bizarre"??
That Wittenburg cancelled the race?
Or that I'm asking whether Salazar has another race Mary can compete in....either this weekend, or very soon (next weekend??)??

The infatuation with a HSer

Here we go again!
Let's see, in the course of this "discussion" on this thread, I've been called...
"obsessed"
"creepy"
"bizarre"
"infatuated".
What's next?? (I won't even guess!!)

Exactly

Okay, that's it!!
I've taken enough CRAP from "Dutra5"!!

GH.....please BAN "Dutra5" from T&FN Message Board.....for NAME CALLING above and beyond!!

Or at least tell me if there's any way I can DELETE his/her posts from my computer!!

[polevaultpower]

Okay, that's it!!
I've taken enough CRAP from "Dutra5"!!

GH.....please BAN "Dutra5" from T&FN Message Board.....for NAME CALLING above and beyond!!

Or at least tell me if there's any way I can DELETE his/her posts from my computer!!

While I do not support name calling, I think you need to grow a thicker skin...

[decafan]

Okay, that's it!!
I've taken enough CRAP from "Dutra5"!!

GH.....please BAN "Dutra5" from T&FN Message Board.....for NAME CALLING above and beyond!!

Or at least tell me if there's any way I can DELETE his/her posts from my computer!!

I'm not sure if you have technically been called any names. I believe those words are all adjectives describing you or your posts. "You are a creep" is not the same thing as, "what you said was pretty creepy" or "you are creepy". It also begs the question of just how accurate those words really are. I mean, if you say something that someone honestly perceives as being "creepy", what is wrong with them using that word in their comments?
Just out of curiosity, can a message board poster get banned for appearing to be:
"obsessed"
"creepy"
"bizarre" or
"infatuated" with underage stars? Seems like a fair question.

[aaronk]

Okay, that's it!!
I've taken enough CRAP from "Dutra5"!!

GH.....please BAN "Dutra5" from T&FN Message Board.....for NAME CALLING above and beyond!!

Or at least tell me if there's any way I can DELETE his/her posts from my computer!!

I'm not sure if you have technically been called any names. I believe those words are all adjectives describing you or your posts. "You are a creep" is not the same thing as, "what you said was pretty creepy" or "you are creepy". It also begs the question of just how accurate those words really are. I mean, if you say something that someone honestly perceives as being "creepy", what is wrong with them using that word in their comments?
Just out of curiosity, can a message board poster get banned for appearing to be:
"obsessed"
"creepy"
"bizarre" or
"infatuated" with underage stars? Seems like a fair question.

You know what??
All of you who think I'm obsessed with "underage stars"....

GO TO HELL!!

I'm outta here!!

Funny, though, because I have even MORE "obsession" with......

71 year old Bob Dylan
66 year old Gerry Lindgren
DEAD poet Allen Ginsberg
88 year old President Jimmy Carter
48 year old Governor Sarah Palin
82 year old Clint Eastwood
and a few others past voting age!!

Just saying!!

[tandfman]

Out of morbid fascination, I just scrolled down this thread from top to bottom to try to figure out what this pissing match was all about.

My conclusions:
aaronk is unusually enthusiastic about Mary Cain, and his posts evidence that enthusiasm. Is the enthusiasm excessive? Unlike Dutra5 and perhaps others, I hesitate to criticize a fellow poster for being excited about a particular athlete. The fact that the athlete is a 16-year old girl really shouldn't matter unless there's some sexual innuendo in his posts, which I didn't find at all.

I, too, made a favorable comment about Ms. Cain early in the thread. I was a lot less verbose, but I thought I made it clear that I shared others' excitement about her future. I trust that Dutra5 doesn't think that I and other posters who have praised Mary Cain are creepy. So it must be the length and frequency of his posts on this subject that lead Dutra5 to conclude that there's something wrong with aaronk. Somehow prolixity implies lasciviousness. I cannot agree.

That having been said, I think pvp was right in suggesting that a thicker skin would help aaronk.

[aaronk]

Out of morbid fascination, I just scrolled down this thread from top to bottom to try to figure out what this pissing match was all about.

My conclusions:
aaronk is unusually enthusiastic about Mary Cain, and his posts evidence that enthusiasm. Is the enthusiasm excessive? Unlike Dutra5 and perhaps others, I hesitate to criticize a fellow poster for being excited about a particular athlete. The fact that the athlete is a 16-year old girl really shouldn't matter unless there's some sexual innuendo in his posts, which I didn't find at all.

I, too, made a favorable comment about Ms. Cain early in the thread. I was a lot less verbose, but I thought I made it clear that I shared others' excitement about her future. I trust that Dutra5 doesn't think that I and other posters who have praised Mary Cain are creepy. So it must be the length and frequency of his posts on this subject that lead Dutra5 to conclude that there's something wrong with aaronk. Somehow prolixity implies lasciviousness. I cannot agree.

That having been said, I think pvp was right in suggesting that a thicker skin would help aaronk.

FINALLY...a SANE and TRUE analysis and reasoning of what I'm truly about vis a vis Ms Cane!!

As noted elsewhere, I am even MORE "enthusiastic" about people, women AND men, in and out of our sport, and I can state emphatically that with NONE of them is there ANY sexual or "lascivious" basis for my enthusiasm!!

(Well, perhaps a TINY bit with the beautiful, though VERY happily married, Sarah Palin, age 48!! )

Anyway, THANK YOU, tandfman, for being a man of common sense with a BRAIN!!!

BTW, it might interest you to know that I am EQUALLY enthusiastic about the near-and far-future prospects of college frosh Brianna Nerud and Cayla Hatton!!

I hope for a 9:30 SC from Nerud in 2013...and for times of 15:20-15:30 and around 31:40-32:00 for Hatton in the 5K-10K....also in 2013!!

[KevinM]

aaronk, it also doesn't help your cause that, whether intended or not, your posting style can sometimes appear to be the message board equivalent of cutting letters out of magazines and assembling them into new words.

The impact ofALL CAPS and multiple ?s and !s (while relentlessly reiterating your questions and thoughts) is of unusual enthusiasm. If what you think is an innocent message is being lost, maybe take a look at your means of communication?

[decafan]

You know what??
All of you who think I'm obsessed with "underage stars"....

GO TO HELL!!

I'm outta here!!

Funny, though, because I have even MORE "obsession" with......

71 year old Bob Dylan
66 year old Gerry Lindgren
DEAD poet Allen Ginsberg
88 year old President Jimmy Carter
48 year old Governor Sarah Palin
82 year old Clint Eastwood
and a few others past voting age!!

Just saying!!

"The [aaronk] doth protest too much, methinks."

"It puts the lotion on the skin..." KIDDING! Please don't ban me.

[Dutra5]

I, too, made a favorable comment about Ms. Cain early in the thread. I was a lot less verbose, but I thought I made it clear that I shared others' excitement about her future. I trust that Dutra5 doesn't think that I and other posters who have praised Mary Cain are creepy. So it must be the length and frequency of his posts on this subject that lead Dutra5 to conclude that there's something wrong with aaronk. Somehow prolixity implies lasciviousness. I cannot agree.

I have an interest in the young lady's abilities as well. She appears, at this point, to be quite the talent. Is it a point of interest that Salazar will be coaching her? Absolutely.

Again...a point of interest. Let's hope Ms. Cain continues to improve and, perhaps most importantly enjoys her high school experience.

As to worrying about her every move or even next move or how a race which has been wiped out by a natural disaster would be dealt with by someone other than a member of her family ... or perhaps other high schoolers with little life perspective.....with anything other than an offhanded question....yeah....that's bizarre to me.

[aaronk]

I, too, made a favorable comment about Ms. Cain early in the thread. I was a lot less verbose, but I thought I made it clear that I shared others' excitement about her future. I trust that Dutra5 doesn't think that I and other posters who have praised Mary Cain are creepy. So it must be the length and frequency of his posts on this subject that lead Dutra5 to conclude that there's something wrong with aaronk. Somehow prolixity implies lasciviousness. I cannot agree.

I have an interest in the young lady's abilities as well. She appears, at this point, to be quite the talent. Is it a point of interest that Salazar will be coaching her? Absolutely.

Again...a point of interest. Let's hope Ms. Cain continues to improve and, perhaps most importantly enjoys her high school experience.

As to worrying about her every move or even next move or how a race which has been wiped out by a natural disaster would be dealt with by someone other than a member of her family ... or perhaps other high schoolers with little life perspective.....with anything other than an offhanded question....yeah....that's bizarre to me.

Forgetting Mary for the moment, it would be interesting to hear Salazar's perspective on the cancellation of the NYC marathon....him being a 2-time winner and one-time record holder on the course.

As for cancellation of the 5K, it affected many more than Ms Cain....Simpson, Uhl, and several other American elites were entered in that race too.

[bushop]

The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled!
Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??

Anyone know...
1.) ... if there was another race the top runner migrated too?
2.) ... if appearance money was paid out in-spite of the cancellation?

It does seem like M Cain needs a quality race(s) to run on occasion. Where/ when is the next strong 5k?
How important is it for young distance runners to compete on cross country courses?
If important, what are the strong open XC races?

[Blues]

Out of morbid fascination, I just scrolled down this thread from top to bottom to try to figure out what this pissing match was all about.

My conclusions:
aaronk is unusually enthusiastic about Mary Cain, and his posts evidence that enthusiasm. Is the enthusiasm excessive? Unlike Dutra5 and perhaps others, I hesitate to criticize a fellow poster for being excited about a particular athlete. The fact that the athlete is a 16-year old girl really shouldn't matter unless there's some sexual innuendo in his posts, which I didn't find at all.

I, too, made a favorable comment about Ms. Cain early in the thread. I was a lot less verbose, but I thought I made it clear that I shared others' excitement about her future. I trust that Dutra5 doesn't think that I and other posters who have praised Mary Cain are creepy. So it must be the length and frequency of his posts on this subject that lead Dutra5 to conclude that there's something wrong with aaronk. Somehow prolixity implies lasciviousness. I cannot agree.

That having been said, I think pvp was right in suggesting that a thicker skin would help aaronk.

This is pretty much the way I viewed aaronk's posts too. I've seen nothing in what he wrote to imply that he's anything more than an extremely enthusiastic fan who's eagerly looking forward to Mary Cain's future athletic accomplishments.

[Marlow]

This is pretty much the way I viewed aaronk's posts too. I've seen nothing in what he wrote to imply that he's anything more than an extremely enthusiastic fan who's eagerly looking forward to Mary Cain's future athletic accomplishments.

I stand by my initial (post #3) assessment:

aaron, I truly admire your enthusiasm, but don't post immediately after three cups of espresso!

[aaronk]

The NYC Marathon thread says the 5K is cancelled!
Sooooo.....does Al have a replacement race for her??

Anyone know...
1.) ... if there was another race the top runner migrated too?
2.) ... if appearance money was paid out in-spite of the cancellation?

It does seem like M Cain needs a quality race(s) to run on occasion. Where/ when is the next strong 5k?
How important is it for young distance runners to compete on cross country courses?
If important, what are the strong open XC races?

First, a HUGE Thank You to everyone who has AGAIN made me feel accepted in this motley clan of tafnuts!!
Okay, so maybe you'd prefer I drop a few thousand of THESE buggers (!!!!!) from my repertoire!!

Anyway, onward.
About paydays for runners.

Mary's agreement (or contract?) with Salazar is that she'll run "pro" races, but not get paid if she wins or places high enough to get some $$$.
This is to protect her future NCAA career.

But don't you wish it could be otherwise...and not just for Mary, but for ALL collegiate t&f athletes.

Running for professional athletes is a job.
It's work, their career (at least until they retire from athletics).

I mean, even collegiate athletes work to help pay their tuition or books, or just to buy clothes or CD's.
So what's the difference if said athlete gets paid by McDonald's or a local running shoe shop....or wins prize money in road races??

As long as there's NO interference with their running for the TEAM....why should it matter??
If it DID interfere with the quality of them running for their team, then THEY would be responsible to make sure it doesn't happen again.

But I just don't see the difference!!
And changing the rules on professional running and NCAA competition would do so much to make things better for all.

[bushop]

Mary's agreement (or contract?) with Salazar is that she'll run "pro" races, but not get paid if she wins or places high enough to get some $$$.

Certainly, but what about the professional runners?

[aaronk]

Mary's agreement (or contract?) with Salazar is that she'll run "pro" races, but not get paid if she wins or places high enough to get some $$$.

Certainly, but what about the professional runners?

Are you talking specifically about yesterday's cancelled 5K entrants??

I assume...but don't know....their situation will be the same as for the pro elite marathoners who were entered in today's race.

Meaning, they'll try to find another marathon (or 5K for Simpson, Uhl et al) to enter soon.
And hope that the NYRR's come up with some sort of payout for them....at least travel and hotel and per diem, if not actual "prize" money (maybe divided evenly among all the elites, since there wasn't a race!).

Another subject, maybe, but I worry about the race itself, meaning the NYC marathon!!
Will people's grudges and bad feelings linger into next year...making it more difficult for Wittenburg (and the NYRR) to even put on the race??

The black clouds linger!! (And I ain't speaking in metaphors!)

[26mi235]

By the way, there were high school track and field athletes that were in the top five at the Olympic Trials (Vaughan-DT, Gabby Williams-HJ, and not sure about Haley Crouser) and they were not named Cain or Baxter, and one of them was (also) only a sohpomore.

[aaronk]

By the way, there were high school track and field athletes that were in the top five at the Olympic Trials (Vaughan-DT, Gabby Williams-HJ, and not sure about Haley Crouser) and they were not named Cain or Baxter, and one of them was (also) only a sohpomore.

I know, I know!
Between all the Cain stuff, I've inserted my opinion on the VERY high quality of the ENTIRE HS girls field this year.
Some of the boys were great too, but the NUMBER of girls who, in any other year, would be a fairly easy #1....or at worst #2......but finished as far down as 8th or 9th....is astonishing!!

2012 was most definitely a year when the girls RULED!!

I can understand 1st and 2nd.
Vaughan broke the mark 4 times, plus her high finish at the Trials.
Won't speak to Cain's credentials now, but she woulda been EASILY #1 in any other year!!
You have Ajee in THIRD???
2nd best ever time, wins the WJ's??
Yet only 3rd!
Haley breaks the JT record, yet is just 4th?
Kendell breaks the Hept mark, and gets just 5th!!
(And she's returning!)
Gabby Williams getting just 9th, despite one of the best HJ's in recent years?
About the only one I disagree with 100% is putting Baird ahead of both Hatton and Nerud.
Hatton ran the 2nd best-ever 5K and 10K's!
Nerud broke the SC record TWICE!!
Sorry, but I would've put Baird in 9th, behind both of them!

Anyway, the quality of those first 9 (Maybe Sanders in 10th also, but not as familiar with what she did as the others!) was SENSATIONAL!!

A banner year for girls HS t&f!!

[aaronk]

Addendum to previous post:

Add Dior Hall (100H), Shamier Little (300-400H), and Torie Owers (SP) to those girls who deserved to be in the Top 10 in ANY other year...yet got crowded out by this year's DEEP field!!

[aaronk]

As one of Mary Cain's most enthusiastic boosters, I should be THRILLED that she has jumped from (I believe) 11th place in the Top 50 Girls Individual CC Rankings....all the way up to SECOND!!!

But even I must ask.....WHY??

I would like nothing more than for her to be ranked Number ONE.......or # 2......but for the life of me, I can't understand why she jumped this week to 2nd place from last week's 11th!!!

Did she race somewhere??
I haven't heard of any!

So what did she DO to deserve this upward movement in her ranking??

[Marlow]

Since she doesn't run for her HS, maybe it's a reflection of the upcoming post-season meets that she may enter.

[jb]

http://web2.nyrrc.org/cgi-bin/htmlos.cg ... 2517383905

[Blues]

It'll be interesting to see how she does at Nike NY Regionals on Saturday. Anybody know who her top competitors in that meet will be?

edit- Seems soph Bella Burda of Arlington is entered and has been running well... She won the NY Federation meet last weekend, and was second at the NY State Championships the weekend before.. She's currently ranked #24 on the National girl's list. It'll be interesting to see how she does relative to Mary's performance. As of now the weather forecast for the NY meet calls for colder temps, with a high around 44, low around 26, and a chance of rain, so the conditions may not be ideal.

[bushop]

... she has jumped from (I believe) 11th place in the Top 50 Girls Individual CC Rankings....all the way up to SECOND!!!
So what did she DO to deserve this upward movement in her ranking??

She was previously not ranked. (nr)

[Marlow]

http://web2.nyrrc.org/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/072825.1.374332022517383905

oh . . .

Fred Lebow Cross Country Championships

5 kilometers
Date/Time: November 18, 2012
Location: Van Cortlandt Park, Bronx

Cain Mary Bronxville NY 17:26

[aaronk]

... she has jumped from (I believe) 11th place in the Top 50 Girls Individual CC Rankings....all the way up to SECOND!!!
So what did she DO to deserve this upward movement in her ranking??

She was previously not ranked. (nr)

Please note that "nr" means she was not ranked at the BEGINNING of the SEASON!!
Look at last week's rankings, and you'll see she was ranked 11th.
She's been right around that ranking (10th, 11th, 12th) most of this season!!

As for the reason her ranking may have jumped up 9 places this week, it seems she WON the female division of the Fred Lebow 5K CC race held on November 18th!
Second woman was almost two minutes behind Mary!
Mary was only beaten by 5 men, all of them older than Mary!!

The ONLY woman in the High School ranks who COULD give Mary a "race" right now is Sarah Baxter!!
And I'd give most anything to see them go head-to-head in an indoor track 5K....or 3K/2 mile!!!
If they really RACED, it would be GOODBYE to whatever that distance's record was!!

[polevaultpower]

The ONLY woman in the High School ranks who COULD give Mary a "race" right now is Sarah Baxter!!

Uhh yeah... I think Amy-Eloise Neale could handle Mary Cain: http://www.athletic.net/CrossCountry/At ... ID=1439510

Neale hasn't been pushed in a race in awhile and we run hilly courses in WA. I like her odds of beating any high school girl head to head right now.